The current refugee wave in Europe

[Zoraptor]

 

If anyone wants a plausible conspiracy theory for why there are suddenly so many refugees look no further than Turkey being baulked at setting up their 'safe zone' in northern Syria. They've announced it every month for the past six months as if it has approval from the US and others, and been told to FOAD (diplomatic equivalent thereof) every time because no one wants to support Erdogan's neo-Ottomanism and everyone knows it would be an anti Kurd zone rather than an anti ISIS one- and many suspect that there would be a 'referendum' and Syria would never get the land back, per Antioch/ Hatay 1939. However, if Europe finds themselves drowning in refugees from Turkey they'll be looking for an alternative solution and Turkey has one on the table.

 

As far as I know its no theory - most of the migrants are coming from Turkey, which they have no real reason to leave. They are being spurred internally, but to be honest, it probably didn't take much as the land of multi-culti ignorance, aka Sweden and Germany did announce they would accept everyone.

 

 

While the facts are known as where most of the refugees are coming from and that there has been an increase recently the reasons behind that are still speculation. Telling the difference between an increase because the Turks are encouraging them to leave- and there are alternative reasons apart from the safe zone for that, there's an election coming up there and reducing refugees/ shouting about a safe zone to appeal to nationalists and turning the area near Syria into a low grade conflict zone with the Kurds to try and get the pro Kurd party under 10% support are all alternative explanations- or because politicians are encouraging them (deliberately or not) to come, or Syrians just plain giving up on ever going home and looking for alternatives cannot be done.

 

In reality it's probably a combination of all of those and a few more to greater or lesser extents since Turkey has internal and external politics in play, western politicians have encouraged movement and the civil war shows no signs of ending in the near future. End of the day Lebanon and Jordan have difficulty with the population they already have and finding the money for feeding/ clothing/ educating them, at some stage they have to say enough is enough- the only suspicious thing is that it's the relatively rich Turkey with its election campaign and external ambitions which seems to be losing its refugees rather than them. Wanting to go from some refugee camp to Germany is perfectly understandable, after all.

[213374U]

Case closed, problem solved. Why the **** is this so hard to grasp? The state exists to exert its authority, not to stand idly by as foreigners come demanding welfare checks, then their own mosque, political party, dress code, legal system and whatever else they fancy (lolollolo).

 

Political authority stems from law. Serbia is a signatory to the Refugee Convention of 1951, which protects refugees from penalties derived from their illegal entry into other countries. So, no, there is no authority that allows border guards to shoot people seeking refugee status. They cannot be forcibly returned either.

 

Not to mention it would be a pretty ****ty thing to do.

 

Everything else you wrote after authority isn't relevant to the issue of refugees, really.

[Malcador]

Wonder how well they will integrate in Germany.

[Darkpriest]

Wonder how well they will integrate in Germany.

 

Probably like all the previous migrants from the middle east... meaning, they won;t....

[Rostere]

Maybe if the entire Middle East moves to Europe, the West will finally learn to stop destabilizing the region.

[Darkpriest]

They always have been destabilized... from as long as the history knows that region from Summerian, Babylonian and Ancient Assyria... it was always revolving about interests of clans and families and the only thing they respect there was and is the authorative power.

 

Babylon, Persia, Post Alexandrian Seleucids, Parthia, Sassanids, Arabia and later Islamic Khaliphat, then Turks and Ottoman Empire, to eventual British occupation of Arabia... All started to break after the 2nd World War, with the highlight moment being setting new borders and introduction on that map the country of Israel, first time since the Roman era, making a lot of mess there. Then instead of letting various dictatorships rule ignorant 'muricans decided to force their ways because "oil and gas".

 

And now we have have fruits of the ignorance for over 4000 years of culture in that region. ISIS might succeed, it's not really destined to failure... they might, because they are hungry of success and determined, they also have support of more zealous and poorly educated majority and the only real issue was the sheer military crackdown capabilites of opressive monrachy (like sauds) or non-religious dictators (like Saddam Hussein,, Gaddafi or the syrian president)

Edited September 9, 2015 by Darkpriest

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Too bad it *will* happen as long as refugee policy remains as it is with practically open borders. Zizek is completely right on that part.

Zizek is right on about the entire thing.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

its all part of a bigger plan to destabilize Europe.

 

Wait what.

 

Germany is planning on destabilizing Europe so German businesses can buy up capital and the EU can push neoliberalism as hard as possible.

[Meshugger]

 

 

its all part of a bigger plan to destabilize Europe.

 

Wait what.

 

Germany is planning on destabilizing Europe so German businesses can buy up capital and the EU can push neoliberalism as hard as possible.

 

 

You missed the part with political "normalization", meaning that a federalization of the states in the EU and more centralized power. People without a strong sense of national community are more passive and will be easier to control in the power vacuum that it creates....or the leaders are simply completely clueless and we are riding the chaos-train.

 

I do not want to be right in either case.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

its all part of a bigger plan to destabilize Europe.

 

 

Wait what.

Germany is planning on destabilizing Europe so German businesses can buy up capital and the EU can push neoliberalism as hard as possible.

 

You missed the part with political "normalization", meaning that a federalization of the states in the EU and more centralized power. People without a strong sense of national community are more passive and will be easier to control in the power vacuum that it creates....or the leaders are simply completely clueless and we are riding the chaos-train.

 

I do not want to be right in either case.

That's part of the plan. They're breaking down state sovereignty(such as the ability to nationalize certain industries) so that private entities can exert more control. The TPP and TTIP are the legal means to do this and the influx of refugees is designed to agitate locals and prevent action against this power grab.

[ktchong]

 

@Bruce:

 

If the West had not interfered in Syria, and armed and provided assistance to the "Free Syrian Army" - who are mostly foreign Islamist extremist fighters - with the explicit purpose of ousting Assad (and replacing him with a pro-West dictator,) then the so-called "Arab Spring" and "resistance" would have been done and over with quickly.  It's precisely the unsavory meddling of the US and EU into Syria's internal affair that has prolonged the war and compounded the misery, which has created this whole mess of refugees.

 

As I said, the West sowed the seed of the civil war in Syria, and now the West is reaping the fruit in the form of hundres of thousands - and probably millions - of refugees.  It's karma of your own doing.

Edited September 9, 2015 by ktchong

[Volourn]

Karma. I guess IYO the poor boy who died deserved it because, you know, karma exists and targets those who deserve it. You better hope karma doesn't exist ktchong b/c for such an evil thoguht like that your karma  boomerang is gonna be simply nasty b/c that poor boy didn't deserve to die like that but your precious karma got him.

[BruceVC]

 

@Bruce:

 

If the West had not interfered in Syria, and armed and provided assistance to the "Free Syrian Army" - who are mostly foreign Islamist extremist fighters - with the explicit purpose of ousting Assad (and replacing him with a pro-West dictator,) then the so-called "Arab Spring" and "resistance" would have been done and over with quickly.  It's precisely the unsavory meddling of the US and EU into Syria's internal affair that has prolonged the war and compounded the misery, which has created this whole mess of refugees.

 

As I said, the West sowed the seed of the civil war in Syria, and now the West is reaping the fruit in the form of hundres of thousands - and probably millions - of refugees.  It's karma of your own doing.

 

Yes you right about that, I have no issue with the likes of Assad or Gaddafi being removed from power. Its not the West place to chose a successor but I would hope a new leader in Syria practices a bit of Democracy

 

You say the West interfered in Syria..no my friend effective Western interference involves a meaningful military campaign but since the Chinese and Russians vetoed this the civil war  has dragged on and on

 

How exactly is the protracted war in Syria a fault of the West.....its preciously because the West couldn't intervene that the war has gone on for so long

 

So please give me details about this Western involvement in Syria ?

[Namutree]

Maybe if the entire Middle East moves to Europe, the West will finally learn to stop destabilizing the region.

Nah. They'll just destabilize themselves.

[Namutree]

 

 

@Bruce:

 

If the West had not interfered in Syria, and armed and provided assistance to the "Free Syrian Army" - who are mostly foreign Islamist extremist fighters - with the explicit purpose of ousting Assad (and replacing him with a pro-West dictator,) then the so-called "Arab Spring" and "resistance" would have been done and over with quickly.  It's precisely the unsavory meddling of the US and EU into Syria's internal affair that has prolonged the war and compounded the misery, which has created this whole mess of refugees.

 

As I said, the West sowed the seed of the civil war in Syria, and now the West is reaping the fruit in the form of hundres of thousands - and probably millions - of refugees.  It's karma of your own doing.

 

Yes you right about that, I have no issue with the likes of Assad or Gaddafi being removed from power. Its not the West place to chose a successor but I would hope a new leader in Syria practices a bit of Democracy

Bruce. If it's the west's place to remove them then it's the west's place to do whatever we want to them. Screwing with another nation isn't something you do in moderation. It's either you respect another nation's sovereignty or you don't.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Namutree

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Case closed, problem solved. Why the **** is this so hard to grasp? The state exists to exert its authority, not to stand idly by as foreigners come demanding welfare checks, then their own mosque, political party, dress code, legal system and whatever else they fancy (lolollolo).

 

Political authority stems from law. Serbia is a signatory to the Refugee Convention of 1951, which protects refugees from penalties derived from their illegal entry into other countries. So, no, there is no authority that allows border guards to shoot people seeking refugee status. They cannot be forcibly returned either.

 

Not to mention it would be a pretty ****ty thing to do.

 

Everything else you wrote after authority isn't relevant to the issue of refugees, really.

 

 

There is no one to enforce international laws, especially against states that are powerful enough to habitually break them *cough* US *cough*. They are taken on the basis of free will, with the promise of "pacta sund servanda". 

 

This is a matter of national security that will have repercussions for years or decades to come. If states don't step up and deal with it, it will come back to bite them in the ass. 

[Volourn]

"There is no one to enforce international laws, especially against states that are powerful enough to habitually break them *cough* US *cough*. They are taken on the basis of free will, with the promise of "pacta sund servanda". 

 

This is a matter of national security that will have repercussions for years or decades to come. If states don't step up and deal with it, it will come back to bite them in the ass. "

\

*cough* Russia *cough* Iran *cough* *cough  x  country*

[Varana]

If the West had not interfered in Syria, and armed and provided assistance to the "Free Syrian Army" - who are mostly foreign Islamist extremist fighters - with the explicit purpose of ousting Assad (and replacing him with a pro-West dictator,) then the so-called "Arab Spring" and "resistance" would have been done and over with quickly.  It's precisely the unsavory meddling of the US and EU into Syria's internal affair that has prolonged the war and compounded the misery, which has created this whole mess of refugees.

Just posting stuff on the internet doesn't mean it's true, but I'm sure you know that. So why do it?

Edited September 9, 2015 by Varana

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

@Bruce:

 

If the West had not interfered in Syria, and armed and provided assistance to the "Free Syrian Army" - who are mostly foreign Islamist extremist fighters - with the explicit purpose of ousting Assad (and replacing him with a pro-West dictator,) then the so-called "Arab Spring" and "resistance" would have been done and over with quickly.  It's precisely the unsavory meddling of the US and EU into Syria's internal affair that has prolonged the war and compounded the misery, which has created this whole mess of refugees.

 

As I said, the West sowed the seed of the civil war in Syria, and now the West is reaping the fruit in the form of hundres of thousands - and probably millions - of refugees.  It's karma of your own doing.

 

Yes you right about that, I have no issue with the likes of Assad or Gaddafi being removed from power. Its not the West place to chose a successor but I would hope a new leader in Syria practices a bit of Democracy

Bruce. If it's the west's place to remove them then it's the west's place to do whatever we want to them. Screwing with another nation isn't something you do in moderation. It's either you respect another nation's sovereignty or you don't.

 

 

So are you suggesting if the West is involved in a military campaign, like Libya, it is now the Wests responsibility to now manage the country?

 

The only issue with that is that the Libyans didn't want the West to be involved in governing Libya after Gaddafi was removed....so what would you suggest? 

[Malcador]

Sort of, they did help breaking it so should share the cost. Some day the West will learn to just leave things alone, or just make sure the devil you know is in charge.

 

The US must be torn up over the ME burning as it is, heh.

[BruceVC]

Sort of, they did help breaking it so should share the cost. Some day the West will learn to just leave things alone, or just make sure the devil you know is in charge.

 

The US must be torn up over the ME burning as it is, heh.

So you don't believe in the principle of intervention in the case of lets say genocide?

 

What about an example like putting pressure on  the old South African Apartheid government ....should the world have just left the alone ?

[Malcador]

Neither of those is similar to arming or being the air force for rebels in another country.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

its all part of a bigger plan to destabilize Europe.

 

Wait what.

 

Germany is planning on destabilizing Europe so German businesses can buy up capital and the EU can push neoliberalism as hard as possible.

 

 

You missed the part with political "normalization", meaning that a federalization of the states in the EU and more centralized power. People without a strong sense of national community are more passive and will be easier to control in the power vacuum that it creates....or the leaders are simply completely clueless and we are riding the chaos-train.

 

 

Both of you sound suspiciously like you're spewing tinfoil-hat nonsense, do you have any extraordinary evidence to back up your extraordinary claims?

 

(Also, I somehow doubt Woldan meant to allude to that. I'm kinda curious about his insane conspiracy theory as well.)

[Lychnidos]

How big needs a smoke get, before people at least gloss over the idea of there being fire?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

its all part of a bigger plan to destabilize Europe.

 

 

Wait what.

Germany is planning on destabilizing Europe so German businesses can buy up capital and the EU can push neoliberalism as hard as possible.

 

You missed the part with political "normalization", meaning that a federalization of the states in the EU and more centralized power. People without a strong sense of national community are more passive and will be easier to control in the power vacuum that it creates....or the leaders are simply completely clueless and we are riding the chaos-train.

 

Both of you sound suspiciously like you're spewing tinfoil-hat nonsense, do you have any extraordinary evidence to back up your extraordinary claims?

 

(Also, I somehow doubt Woldan meant to allude to that. I'm kinda curious about his insane conspiracy theory as well.)

Yes the EU, which Germany has a good deal of influence on, is clearly not pursuing a neoliberal agenda that has done severe damage to the economies of PIGS while benefiting Germany. And past experience has shown that these refugees will not be used as a source of cheap labor and will get along splendidly with the locals. It's got to be crazy talk that neoliberals would bend over backwards to accommodate corporations.