So that was terrible...

[Katarack21]

I'm playing on Normal. I have been through the whole game up to this point in Act III. I have a full party of level 11's--me (a cipher), plus Eder, Pallegina, Durance, Aloth, and Grieving mother.

Like I said, I've had no real problems up to this point. Raedric was hard--I got through it by rebounding Aloth's "Rolling flame" really hard. The Ogre matron bountie was also a bitch, but it only took three retries.

Nothing like this. This is insane. Four barbarians ripping apart my back line three seconds into combat--I really don't know what I'm supposed to be doing.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Katarack21

[Springwight]

I'm playing on Normal. I have been through the whole game up to this point in Act III. I have a full party of level 11's--me (a cipher), plus Eder, Pallegina, Durance, Aloth, and Grieving mother.

 

Like I said, I've had no real problems up to this point. Raedric was hard--I got through it by rebounding Aloth's "Rolling flame" really hard. The Ogre matron bountie was also a bitch, but it only took three retries.

 

Nothing like this. This is insane. Four barbarians ripping apart my back line three seconds into combat--I really don't know what I'm supposed to be doing.

If you're this frustrated, just lower the difficulty. If the problem persists, then like I said, I'd consider it a technical issue. On the other hand, if the game gets too easy, then you can still complain about it (and in my view your complaint would be all the more substantive), but you get to keep playing the game while doing so. 

Edited August 26, 2015 by Springwight

[Katarack21]

I have. I didn't want to--I'm not at all "new" to these kinds of games. I've beaten BG I (many times), BG II (many times), Planescape, IWD, etc. But I did. I set it on "easy" and tried a combat. Same thing...just took longer for me to die because they missed more, etc.

I just really don't understand what the point of this is supposed to be. What I'm supposed to do about this. This is *WAY* worse than BGII's combat ever was.

Explain to me what to do in this scenario.

I spot the enemy. I send up Pallegina. Pallegina engages that enemy. Three other enemies come around the right side. I send Eder to engage those enemies. One more enemy comes around that group--I send Durance to engage that enemy. All this time, GM, Aloth, and me are firing spells.

One round passes (three seconds). Two of the enemies on Eder straight break engagement and rush back to my casters. I don't have a chance to cast any paralyzing, stunning, or blinding spells because they do this far to immediately. The enemy on Durance jumps over to the back line, knocking Durance prone. There are now three people engaged in melee with my back line, Durance is prone, Eder and Pallegina are engaged.

At this point I'm dead in one round. And this is EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. They break engagement and rush my back line every time, without fail, without hesitation. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and since this tactic literally kills half my party in two seconds and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, I don't know what to do.

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

[Ink Blot]

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

Hell, I found they were doing that on a fairly regular basis even before patch 2.0 (I was playing on Hard and Normal).

[KDubya]

You said that these are barbarians, don't they have an ability to ignore disengagement attacks and run very fast? Maybe these particular enemies are just using their innate abilities? Maybe other, non-barbarian enemies will behave differently?

 

I am downloading the patch, only 12 hours to go Not sure how long it will take to get the expansion.

[View619]

Yeah, Barbarians do have Wild Sprint. That gives them higher disengagement defenses and ramps up their run speed.

[Bobby Null]

I'm curious what area(s) you are having problems with and what your current party level is?

[Heijoushin]

That sounds pretty frustrating. How about using the new stealth features? Hide your squishy characters until the enemy is properly engaged. 

[ruzen]

Explain to me what to do in this scenario.

 

I spot the enemy. I send up Pallegina. Pallegina engages that enemy. Three other enemies come around the right side. I send Eder to engage those enemies. One more enemy comes around that group--I send Durance to engage that enemy. All this time, GM, Aloth, and me are firing spells.

 

One round passes (three seconds). Two of the enemies on Eder straight break engagement and rush back to my casters. I don't have a chance to cast any paralyzing, stunning, or blinding spells because they do this far to immediately. The enemy on Durance jumps over to the back line, knocking Durance prone. There are now three people engaged in melee with my back line, Durance is prone, Eder and Pallegina are engaged.

 

At this point I'm dead in one round. And this is EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. They break engagement and rush my back line every time, without fail, without hesitation. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and since this tactic literally kills half my party in two seconds and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, I don't know what to do.

 

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

Firts of all. There shouldnt be talk of a consept; "round" in a real time combat. With that clear out of the way. I seriously dont have problem like that. Played 8+ hours (PoD diffuculty) last night and that situation you described happened really rare. Maybe your "tanks" are not intimidating as they suppose to be and AI just ignores and goes straight to you real "dps" party members. My situation is not like that at all. At least If Kana doesnt score some good crits AI wont even bother to break engagement.

 

And some longshot tecnical answer. Maybe the other party members staying at hide (who are good at sneaking) and AI realesing them very late may f***up their logic at some point?

[hk79v1]

It's not. It's terrible news. What's the point of having a combat-sticky engagement mechanic if it's just ignored by the enemies? The whole purpose of "engagement", from what I understood, was to avoid the BG scenario where your ranged squishies are just constantly rushed. Like in actual D&D, where there are limitations on combat movement and a tank character can actually hold enemies and protect ranged characters.

 

This is exactly the worse aspect of BG combat--the total inability for a tank to tank. It does seem to be a regular part of combat in the expansion and it's ****ing ****. I don't want to have to drag my goddamn fighters across the battle field five goddamn times while constantly re-positioning my main character to avoid instantaneous melee death *EVERY GODDAMN BATTLE*. My tanks are built defensive, with ****ing multiple-engagement talents and deflection and ****, to ****ing tank--to hold multiple enemies on them. Literally my entire party is built around the simple concept of holding enemies on my tanks and dealing damage with my damage dealers. Every item I have, every talent I took, every spell I know--it's all built around that one simple strategy.

 

If they're just going to completely ignore engagement and run off after my casters every. single. time. (as they have been doing) then this entire expansion will be nothing but a constant micromanagement slag of chasing characters around a battlefield. How fun. Yay.

Wouldn't it be wise to buff Disengagement attacks then? Make them ACTUALLY matter! Give them a MASSIVE accuracy and damage boost, make those enemies IMMEDIATELY regret trying to run past your mobile brick wall. Hell, make some talents and traits that boost the effective of Disengagement attacks then! Better range, multiple attacks against enemies trying to run past you, debuffs like say "Hamstring" where it lowers their movement speed and causes a bleeding DoT. Stuff like that!

[Aotrs Commander]

If it's stuff in the first new area you're having trouble with, it might just be some of it is the type of enemy, as people have said. I am in a similar position level and difficulty wise (12 - i just grabbed the party from the first pre-pit save), with a cipher, Sagani, Eder, Aloth, Durance and GM), also having got through most fights without much trouble and found the combat notably a good deal harder. (I actually think Itumaak might be earning his pay here by providing an extra body to disperse the enemy a bit). I noticed at least once an enemy barbarian-class apparently leap over the tanks to the back ranks.

 

(I don't know what difference it might make, but I only have the one playthrough, and thus my NPCs were picked up before the companion stat revisions.)

 

I start out typically with both ciphers spamming Amplified Wave, which might have bought me a bit of time in at least migitating the first charge, as while I have been pressed MUCH harder than usual (I actually had to rest mid-map), I have been making progress.

 

At least until I ran into the enemies with very high Int Clear Out which just laugh at the idea of tanks as they just knock them prone for a lot of seconds BEHIND your casters...!

Edited August 26, 2015 by Aotrs Commander

[archangel979]

 

It's not. It's terrible news. What's the point of having a combat-sticky engagement mechanic if it's just ignored by the enemies? The whole purpose of "engagement", from what I understood, was to avoid the BG scenario where your ranged squishies are just constantly rushed. Like in actual D&D, where there are limitations on combat movement and a tank character can actually hold enemies and protect ranged characters.

 

This is exactly the worse aspect of BG combat--the total inability for a tank to tank. It does seem to be a regular part of combat in the expansion and it's ****ing ****. I don't want to have to drag my goddamn fighters across the battle field five goddamn times while constantly re-positioning my main character to avoid instantaneous melee death *EVERY GODDAMN BATTLE*. My tanks are built defensive, with ****ing multiple-engagement talents and deflection and ****, to ****ing tank--to hold multiple enemies on them. Literally my entire party is built around the simple concept of holding enemies on my tanks and dealing damage with my damage dealers. Every item I have, every talent I took, every spell I know--it's all built around that one simple strategy.

 

If they're just going to completely ignore engagement and run off after my casters every. single. time. (as they have been doing) then this entire expansion will be nothing but a constant micromanagement slag of chasing characters around a battlefield. How fun. Yay.

 

Wow. First time I see a post of someone who understands BG combat wasn't perfect, and that the engagement idea is there for a reason. Finally.

The things I suffered in the beta forums

 

I'm guessing some more balancing is needed. Obviously the fighter can't have high deflection + high accuracy + extra engagements + high damage. So saying it's the op's problem if his/her fighter doesn't punish disengagement is kinda silly.

 

Actually both him and you don't have a clue what you are talking about. In Bg games it was super easy to tank. You kited a bit with ranged and sent your tank after the chasing enemy and the enemy went back to attacking the tank. Also the squishy classes had good cc spells that would take out of the battle those that came to hit them.

 

This change to PoE is awesome for people that use IE mod and turn off disengagement attacks, we can now play it almost like BG since enemies will disengage more often (with no penalty with IE mod) and you will need to kite and not just tank&spank like in vanilla PoE

Edited August 26, 2015 by archangel979

[AndreaColombo]

A.I. finally making intelligent decisions on if and when to disengage? "1 tank + 5 naked ranged DPS" insta-win button no longer available?

 

This expansion is packed full of features and Obsidian aren't even advertising the best ones!

[Katarack21]

 

 

It's not. It's terrible news. What's the point of having a combat-sticky engagement mechanic if it's just ignored by the enemies? The whole purpose of "engagement", from what I understood, was to avoid the BG scenario where your ranged squishies are just constantly rushed. Like in actual D&D, where there are limitations on combat movement and a tank character can actually hold enemies and protect ranged characters.

 

This is exactly the worse aspect of BG combat--the total inability for a tank to tank. It does seem to be a regular part of combat in the expansion and it's ****ing ****. I don't want to have to drag my goddamn fighters across the battle field five goddamn times while constantly re-positioning my main character to avoid instantaneous melee death *EVERY GODDAMN BATTLE*. My tanks are built defensive, with ****ing multiple-engagement talents and deflection and ****, to ****ing tank--to hold multiple enemies on them. Literally my entire party is built around the simple concept of holding enemies on my tanks and dealing damage with my damage dealers. Every item I have, every talent I took, every spell I know--it's all built around that one simple strategy.

 

If they're just going to completely ignore engagement and run off after my casters every. single. time. (as they have been doing) then this entire expansion will be nothing but a constant micromanagement slag of chasing characters around a battlefield. How fun. Yay.

 

Wow. First time I see a post of someone who understands BG combat wasn't perfect, and that the engagement idea is there for a reason. Finally.

The things I suffered in the beta forums

 

I'm guessing some more balancing is needed. Obviously the fighter can't have high deflection + high accuracy + extra engagements + high damage. So saying it's the op's problem if his/her fighter doesn't punish disengagement is kinda silly.

 

Actually both him and you don't have a clue what you are talking about. In Bg games it was super easy to tank. You kited a bit with ranged and sent your tank after the chasing enemy and the enemy went back to attacking the tank.

That is literally the definition of what you do to adapt to bad tanking systems.

[Katarack21]

A.I. finally making intelligent decisions on if and when to disengage? "1 tank + 5 naked ranged DPS" insta-win button no longer available?

 

This expansion is packed full of features and Obsidian aren't even advertising the best ones!

Straw man, much? Nobody in this thread runs a party anything like that. At all.

[AndreaColombo]

That wasn't directed at you, mate. It was a general consideration. From your post it seems to me like A.I. now behaves a lot more intelligently than it used to, and in my books that's fantastic news. YMMV.

[Springwight]

I have. I didn't want to--I'm not at all "new" to these kinds of games. I've beaten BG I (many times), BG II (many times), Planescape, IWD, etc. But I did. I set it on "easy" and tried a combat. Same thing...just took longer for me to die because they missed more, etc.

 

I just really don't understand what the point of this is supposed to be. What I'm supposed to do about this. This is *WAY* worse than BGII's combat ever was.

 

Explain to me what to do in this scenario.

 

I spot the enemy. I send up Pallegina. Pallegina engages that enemy. Three other enemies come around the right side. I send Eder to engage those enemies. One more enemy comes around that group--I send Durance to engage that enemy. All this time, GM, Aloth, and me are firing spells.

 

One round passes (three seconds). Two of the enemies on Eder straight break engagement and rush back to my casters. I don't have a chance to cast any paralyzing, stunning, or blinding spells because they do this far to immediately. The enemy on Durance jumps over to the back line, knocking Durance prone. There are now three people engaged in melee with my back line, Durance is prone, Eder and Pallegina are engaged.

 

At this point I'm dead in one round. And this is EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. They break engagement and rush my back line every time, without fail, without hesitation. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and since this tactic literally kills half my party in two seconds and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, I don't know what to do.

 

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

I really think that's a problem. I mean I want more difficult combat and smarter AI, but not everyone wants that, and many people like that bought the game. Easy is supposed to be, well, easy, and if that difficulty no longer does what it says on the tin, I think it's a technical issue, since it basically means some people can't play the game anymore, or at least can't do the White March content.

 

It doesn't matter if the OP is "doing it wrong" (in no way suggesting he is). Easy should be easy, period. 

---

In no way to detract from anything you've said, I can tell you what I do.

 

I never use engagement as a primary tactic to restrict movement. I rely a lot on crowd control, and bottlenecks. I never, ever, start a battle by melee attacking any of the monsters. On Path of the Damned, that's suicide (at least for my party composition). I poke the enemies from a very long way off, and make them run through hell and Chill Fog to get to me, while I pommel them with spells. 

 

I cast Mental Binding on things inside the mess of AoE effects and try to block all movement. I use Confusion sometimes. That spell can really solve entire encounters. 

 

I send summoned creatures inside the Chill Fog area to force enemies to stay inside (friendly fire be damned). I only use my sort-of tank as last a resort delaying tactic. If an enemy gets worryingly close, I use Halt (Priest's first level spell, very fast and effective) and Mental Binding, and try to kill them, or else reposition myself. Enemies rarely get close to me, and almost always only if I screw up.

 

There are things that can get past this kind of strategy, in particular some of the ghosts in Od Nua, but it generally almost always works. There is a bit more to it, actually, but there's only so much I can put in a post.

[Katarack21]

Well I did finally manage to get through the first map and into the ruins. It's not "easy", though. I actually skipped one group of enemies.

 

I think the biggest problem may have just been the particular types of enemies in that first area, though. The *edited out* on the other part of the map aren't anywhere near the total bastards that those *edited out* were.

 

No wonder they hired them to take on a legendary *edited out.* I would, too.

 

Cant EDIT: I edited out two words that didn't seem particularly spoilerish, but we're cracking down on spoilers in this forum. Please report or PM moderators for spoilers in the PoE general forum.

[HerbSalad]

 

I have. I didn't want to--I'm not at all "new" to these kinds of games. I've beaten BG I (many times), BG II (many times), Planescape, IWD, etc. But I did. I set it on "easy" and tried a combat. Same thing...just took longer for me to die because they missed more, etc.

 

I just really don't understand what the point of this is supposed to be. What I'm supposed to do about this. This is *WAY* worse than BGII's combat ever was.

 

Explain to me what to do in this scenario.

 

I spot the enemy. I send up Pallegina. Pallegina engages that enemy. Three other enemies come around the right side. I send Eder to engage those enemies. One more enemy comes around that group--I send Durance to engage that enemy. All this time, GM, Aloth, and me are firing spells.

 

One round passes (three seconds). Two of the enemies on Eder straight break engagement and rush back to my casters. I don't have a chance to cast any paralyzing, stunning, or blinding spells because they do this far to immediately. The enemy on Durance jumps over to the back line, knocking Durance prone. There are now three people engaged in melee with my back line, Durance is prone, Eder and Pallegina are engaged.

 

At this point I'm dead in one round. And this is EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. They break engagement and rush my back line every time, without fail, without hesitation. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and since this tactic literally kills half my party in two seconds and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, I don't know what to do.

 

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

I really think that's a problem. I mean I want more difficult combat and smarter AI, but not everyone wants that, and many people like that bought the game. Easy is supposed to be, well, easy, and if that difficulty no longer does what it says on the tin, I think it's a technical issue, since it basically means some people can't play the game anymore, or at least can't do the White March content.

 

It doesn't matter if the OP is "doing it wrong" (in no way suggesting he is). Easy should be easy, period. 

---

 

 

 

dude, yeah. I bought this game to play on easy and was very much surprised by combat after the update. used to play every day but find myself avoiding the game, not really fun for me to kite the whole enemy party with my rogue just to be decimated by disengagement attacks (not a naked rogue, nor 3 con, but still gets killed almost instantly) please add an option for the old combat  for us casuals! thanks. I enjoy the rest of the update btw

[Doppelschwert]

Well I did finally manage to get through the first map and into the ruins. It's not "easy", though. I actually skipped one group of enemies.

 

I think the biggest problem may have just been the particular types of enemies in that first area, though. The undead on the other part of the map aren't anywhere near the total bastards that those mercenaries were.

 

No wonder they hired them to take on a legendary mage. I would, too.

 

You know, that's not the first map of the expansion. That's the optional high level area you are supposed to tackle at the end of the game with max level.

The main expansion content takes place in the white march (as the name suggests), which is to the top right on the world map.

[Gunnar.Maluf]

Well I did finally manage to get through the first map and into the ruins. It's not "easy", though. I actually skipped one group of enemies.

 

I think the biggest problem may have just been the particular types of enemies in that first area, though. The undead on the other part of the map aren't anywhere near the total bastards that those mercenaries were.

 

No wonder they hired them to take on a legendary mage. I would, too.

 

hmmm I guessed this was the issue. You are in the mage's keep where a band of mercenaries are attacking him and threatening to do the same with Caed Nua right?

That map is for higher level parties. I tried attacking it with my level 12 party and I was having a hard time facing more than 3 enemies at once. That map is designed for higher level parties. There are enemies scouting, so when you start a fight with say 2-3 enemies, then 1 or 2 more join the fun. Also there was a type of mercenary that produced duplicates. Not one...2-3 of them each! I was facing two of them so 5-6 duplicates all of the sudden. I will try it again after I get better gear and higher level. Ps: Playing on Path of the Damned.

[ruzen]

About this "game is not easy enough thing" ... C'mon once the initial challange is over It should be easy after getting level 2& 3 party members. I never played on easy but I mean I wont even bother testing It playing on easy because you have to do everything wrong to be killed at easy on my book. or just write some cheats then; I dunno at this point If we seriusly going to discuss a player who cannot play this game on easy then wer f***ed. Let us play some more before asking for balance.

 

There are more serius things to be fixed first. For me that blurry text and textures is my main problem right now.

[Killyox]

During my fourth battle in the expansion, the damn thing lasted over 15 minutes because the enemies kept disengaging from my two fighters and straight-up rushing my main character (a cipher). Six times this happened. In a row. I counted. I'd manuever my fighters back over, engage the enemy, move my cipher across the entire battlefield--and three seconds later "Disengagmenet!" and they literally run across the entire battlefield ignoring everybody else just to melee attack my cipher again.

 

Is this expected behavior? New AI for the expansion? Or is my luck just that terrible? 

intended, new ai. Adapt. Block pathways. You still get free attack when they disengage but you can't be reckless anymore now. Lock down a path and they won't be able to physically come to you (unless shades and stuff:P)

 

PS

 

i don't mind when they disengage from my barb, free carnage procs all around :D

Edited August 26, 2015 by Killyox

[Tigranes]

I have. I didn't want to--I'm not at all "new" to these kinds of games. I've beaten BG I (many times), BG II (many times), Planescape, IWD, etc. But I did. I set it on "easy" and tried a combat. Same thing...just took longer for me to die because they missed more, etc.

 

I just really don't understand what the point of this is supposed to be. What I'm supposed to do about this. This is *WAY* worse than BGII's combat ever was.

 

Explain to me what to do in this scenario.

 

I spot the enemy. I send up Pallegina. Pallegina engages that enemy. Three other enemies come around the right side. I send Eder to engage those enemies. One more enemy comes around that group--I send Durance to engage that enemy. All this time, GM, Aloth, and me are firing spells.

 

One round passes (three seconds). Two of the enemies on Eder straight break engagement and rush back to my casters. I don't have a chance to cast any paralyzing, stunning, or blinding spells because they do this far to immediately. The enemy on Durance jumps over to the back line, knocking Durance prone. There are now three people engaged in melee with my back line, Durance is prone, Eder and Pallegina are engaged.

 

At this point I'm dead in one round. And this is EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. They break engagement and rush my back line every time, without fail, without hesitation. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and since this tactic literally kills half my party in two seconds and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, I don't know what to do.

 

Are they doing the same thing to you? Do they consistently break engagement and rush your back line every single combat?

 

I haven't played the expansion yet, so just going by your words. It sounds like you've relied very strongly on engagement as a semipermanent sticker in your tactics previously. Your go-to is "See enemy, engage, no worries!" It is not necessarily that the AI has become exceptionally dastardy as to make an Easy battle Impossible - even if we assume the patch/xpack monumentally broke things, it would be really hard to screw up that badly. It is much more likely that the specific changes happened to target specifically the habits that you had come to rest your tactics on.

 

In your scenario, it already takes some time for enemies to emerge and engage your enemies, and then a few more seconds for them to disengage and run towards your squishies. You have time to cast spells: you say yourself "GM, Aloth and me are firing spells." So if you decided not to cast any disabling spells when you had the time, then of course you are going to be in trouble. Aloth, for example, could have opened the battle with some sort of crowd control spell - not an unreasonable thing to do, given the number of enemies. Or Aloth could have held off for a couple seconds, deciding to watch how the enemies open battle, so that he can react immediately. You decided to rely very heavily on engagement, making the AI's disengagement more effective. 

 

In addition: I don't know the expansion enemies, but if I think of any regular game battle, even if multiple enemies have engaged your squishies, that does not mean instant death. Firstly, this may mean your party is built far too dichotomously into tanks and squishies, if half your party manages to die so quickly. Secondly, every class possesses several skills for such situations, from Escape to Arcane Veil. Thirdly, there are even ways for, say, Monks to rush over and knock a guy prone to save the mage, or the high-defense Fighter to swallow a couple Disengage attacks, run over, and use Knockdown to save the cipher. 

 

In short: if disengagement is so instantly catastrophic to your entire party, this suggests that you have relied very strongly on engagement in the abilities you use, in your party builds, and in your tactical habits. In fact, depending on how the AI works, the enemies may be disengaging so frequently precisely because your 'tanks' are so heavily armoured yet weak in attack, and your squishies are so delectably squishy. I don't know if that's true for sure, I can't see your party, but that's a possibility.

 

Now, I'm not about to say the xpack AI must be great - I'd be an idiot to say so without playing myself. Even if my party was well equipped to deal with disengaging enemies, it would be very annoying if enemies were doing it literally every second. I do think that it's a big step forward if the AI finally understands "Engagement" doesn't mean "Stand in that spot and never move".

[ruzen]

Also I have to say this. I'm really ashamed that we are disgussing 2.0 and new expansion under "So that was terrible..." topic name. Although this changes doesnt make amends with early ignored beta warnings (about a yer ago) It is still an efford (with immunes and all that) to bring the PoE combat to enjoyable state.

 

...but most of people continue talking here so I guess I have to, too. I wish OP to changing the title.

Edited August 26, 2015 by ruzen