POE Modding sites.....

[gkathellar]

If people were able to create maps it might be possible. A campaign starts with a quest and just adds those. So if a quest can be crated I think a campaign could be crated. We need to remember that mods are installed at the players own risk.

Right, so, maps. Let's talk about maps. The thing you have to remember is that PoE, like the IE games before it, does not use tilesets, or anything resembling tilesets. It uses multi-layered 2D images with designated pathfinding. Even if Obsidian gave people software to layer and convert images, they'd still have to create those images themselves.

 

Let's be real. There are no completed total conversions of any IE games, save for those which move complete games from one version of the engine to others. That's because of maps. Without tilesets or similar terrain editors, map-creation is an ungodly hassle.

 

I'm all for the upgrade to Unity 5 for better modding support, but let's not pretend to be riding a camel while sitting on horseback.

 

 

they should upgrade to unity 5 and release the editor. That way people will play custom campaigns. The game lost a lot of people playing it on steam. Look at Fallout : New Vegas to see how great the modding community is. Modding the game would only make profit and more fans for Obsidian.

 

How would you even *begin* to create custom *campaigns*? Like what?

 

 

People desperately, desperately want a successor to NWN, and they will ask that any fantasy RPG with a shirt and two shoes be given the tools to be that successor, whether it makes sense or not.

 

(Hint: Dragon Age could've been that successor, if it weren't way too complicated and labor-intensive to do. Shadowrun Returns and its sequels could've been that successor, if theyhad a wider audience and its genre weren't so niche. Divinity: OS could still be that successor, if Larian gets its act together with the editor. Hopefully the Enhanced Edition fixes that.)

Edited July 17, 2015 by gkathellar

[Nakia]

I was a part of the Bethesda modding community for roughly five years and it can get pretty nasty.  There are legal problems.  One of the reasons I support a modding sub-forum here is that it gives a center for both modders and those desiring mods to get needed information.  Not everyone who makes a mod has a dedicated site.  Some people simply do not have the time to spend o modding but enjoy doing it simply as a hobby like stamp collecting.    

 

It is important that modders understand what is legal and what is not.  Some may seem obvious but others are gray areas.  Who owns the mod has been discussed and argued in many discussions.  Obsidian owns PoE I own a license to play the game.  If I make a mod using game resources do I own the mod or does Obsidian?  My thought is that Obsidian does but I may own some intellectual rights and there fore could restrict other modders from taking the mod to do with as they please. ??? Gray area I think.

 

A sub-forum would place a burden on the moderators.  They have a real stake in this issue but I still hope they will be willing to give a trial.

\

Edit:  Regarding making maps it is possible to make some really gorgeous maps using the 2D tools.  The problem may  be in that PoE adds 3D elements.  I have worked with both 2D maps and 3D tile sets and I found the 2D much easier to work with.  Pathing can be a problem.  I had a discussion with a dev about how that was done with Navimesh.  It is a real headache.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Nakia

[abaris]

 

 

 

I think that because mods are so common gamers are taking them for granted and feel they have a right to them instead of being appreciative.

 

 

I can like a game and be appreciative of it's vanilla state, but still love the mods for adding longevity. One doesn't rule out the other. Personally I would love to see mods for Pillars, but I'm perfectly aware there is no toolset to get started. It the same with D:OS and personally I find that a shame, since both games were the lights at the end of the tunnel of mediocricy for me and I would have loved to see the modding community taking it from there.

[Luckmann]

 

 

If people were able to create maps it might be possible.  A campaign starts with a quest and just adds those.  So if a quest can be crated I think a campaign could be crated.  We need to remember that mods are installed at the players own risk.

 

Thing is, of course, that you can't "create maps", and to release "the editor" (suggesting that they even have an editor) wouldn't do anything to fix that. I'm all for mod support and I'd love to take a crack at certain things, but custom campaigns ain't gonna happen. People rarely even make custom campaigns when the tools are there, in systems where it's possible (Oblivion/Skyrim, FO3/FONV, D:OS, etc).

 

How difficult would it be to make a mod that allows stats from items to stack? More importantly, maybe this could be the first thing you try to "take a crack at"!

 

I've never been a huge mod user but this is the one thing that drives me nuts about this game. I suppose I played too much diablo II haha..

 

Probably pretty damn hard. I once tried to mod something as simple as the Attribute Bonuses (since it was known that they worked terribly, months before the game was even released).

 

Big fat "No!" on that one.

[Nakia]

 

 

 

 

I think that because mods are so common gamers are taking them for granted and feel they have a right to them instead of being appreciative.

 

 

I can like a game and be appreciative of it's vanilla state, but still love the mods for adding longevity. One doesn't rule out the other. Personally I would love to see mods for Pillars, but I'm perfectly aware there is no toolset to get started. It the same with D:OS and personally I find that a shame, since both games were the lights at the end of the tunnel of mediocricy for me and I would have loved to see the modding community taking it from there.

 

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  There are people who do not appreciate what modders do by making and sharing their mods.  Game developers develop thick skins but user modders are often innocents who have what they think is a great idea and want to share it with other like minded people.  There are some nasty horror stories in the Bethesda modding community.   User modders cannot charge for their mods so it is not a business but a hobby done with love.  Some may get donations from people but that is optional.  I have given donations to some modders when I felt their mod or mods where exceptional. 

 

Edit:  I am not saying that anyone here does not appreciate the work that modders do in fact I doubt we would be posting in this thread if we didn't.  What I am saying is that there are people who do harass and vilify user modders and their mods.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Nakia

[Gromnir]

am admitting we hadn't considered the "donation" aspect o' mods... likely 'cause we weren't aware of such.  huh.  monetary transactions being functional facilitated by a developer or publisher's website, regardless o' whether they is called donations, is a curious problem we may explore a bit.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

Donations are optional, no one can make a mod and then demand a "donation" in order for people to download it.    In that case it is no longer a donation and is a fee and can get the modder in trouble with whoever owns the game copyright.  Check out NEXUS they have made it possible to donate if you wish to modders.

[Varana]

Sorry, but most of this is way exaggerated.

If you have a somewhat central modding site (or a few of them, e.g. a forum here, and the Nexus for files), the community is usually quite good at policing itself. Even if there is a forum dedicated to mods, it won't suddenly explode in users, discussion, or content. Most of the issues mentioned above come with a large user base, and even in Bethesda's modding community, most of the real drama was a result of Skyrim having that ridiculously huge number of users.

Neither BG modding, nor TES modding in its infancy (like Morrowind when it started) were cesspools infested with intrigue, drama, and monetary greed, you know. And let's be honest - compared to PoE, those communities had large numbers of participants.

PoE is really unfriendly to modding, even more so than the IE games. Its modding scene will never be big, even if some miracle like WeiDU for the IE games were to happen. Discussions often will be over after two posts, like user A asking "can it be done?" and user B answering "in the foreseeable future, nope", EOD.

 

Campaigns and maps? Not gonna happen, any way soon. Maybe if some genius finds a way to import user-made Unity 5 stuff back into PoE's version. As with all modding, they basically depend on someone with a programming background developing tools first.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Varana

[Rosveen]

am admitting we hadn't considered the "donation" aspect o' mods... likely 'cause we weren't aware of such. huh. monetary transactions being functional facilitated by a developer or publisher's website, regardless o' whether they is called donations, is a curious problem we may explore a bit.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Valve does paid mods, you can look into it if you're interested. The Sims 2 case is also worth researching. Bethesda recently tried exploring it for Skyrim in cooperation with Steam Workshop and it exploded in their faces because the modding community was different and TES modding itself is more complex, from technical and legal point of view, than anything done for Valve games. Basically, their proposed system had more holes than Swiss cheese.

 

What we have now is, as Nakia said, Nexus donations through PayPal. They are completely voluntary (which is why very few people use them) and aren't even payments for specific mods, just a general transfer to the modder.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Rosveen

[Nakia]

It exploded in Valves face because Valve had no quality control over the mods offered and clearly stated that the community was responsible for Quality testing.  Bethesda and Valve took around 75% of the price of the mods leaving the modder with about 25%.  People did not want to pay for mods that might or might not conflict with other mods or cause problems.  Believe me or not as you wish but I was one of the protesters and kept close tabs on what was going on.

[qwert_44643]

 If i remember right alot of the protesters was angry that the modders hardly got anything and Beth/Valve got  a huge chunk.....

Edited July 18, 2015 by qwert_44643

[Rosveen]

It exploded in Valves face because Valve had no quality control over the mods offered and clearly stated that the community was responsible for Quality testing. Bethesda and Valve took around 75% of the price of the mods leaving the modder with about 25%. People did not want to pay for mods that might or might not conflict with other mods or cause problems. Believe me or not as you wish but I was one of the protesters and kept close tabs on what was going on.

It wasn't only that. TES modding is very collaborative, there was the problem of monetizing mods relying on SKSE or assets from other mods. There was a question of the ethics of monetizing mods at all (especially the likes of SkyUI or the unofficial patches). But yes, lack of quality control was one of the biggest issues. Valve didn't understand the nature of TES modding, the frequency of conflicts and the importance of tools like mod managers, Wrye Bash etc. They weren't prepared for what they tried to do. Hopefully their inevitable next attempt will be better thought out.

 

So... PoE modding, what can be done about it?

[Nakia]

As for PoE modding no much right now.

 

There were various reasons why the charge for mods was prosted from the simple one of players did not want to be forced to pay for something that they had been getting free.  I also think Value CEO made a statement that the modding community was too complicated because many mods to use talent from various people which is true can be seen from the credits given in mods.  At one time I belonged to a group of quite a few people who worked together.  So that is true but  I think Value tried to save face by using it as a reason to withdraw the charging.

 

 

 If i remember right alot of the protesters was angry that the modders hardly got anything and Beth/Valve got  a huge chunk.....

A lot more than one said that.   Also TES players tend to install many mods.  Even if each mod purchased only cost 1 USD each the cost could add up to several hundreds.  

Edited July 18, 2015 by Nakia

[Gromnir]

the voluntary nature o' the donations is not as meaningful as you might believe. particularly as obsidian is a developer and not a publisher, we can see potential issues related to mod-makers soliciting funds on an obsidian board.  is less an issue with poe, but even so, solicitation and donation is not mutual exclusive.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

the voluntary nature o' the donations is not as meaningful as you might believe. particularly as obsidian is a developer and not a publisher, we can see potential issues related to mod-makers soliciting funds on an obsidian board.  is less an issue with poe, but even so, solicitation and donation is not mutual exclusive.

 

HA! Good Fun!

If the mod is uploaded to Nexus they would not be soliciting donations here.   However as long as the donation is a true donation there should be no problem.  At the moment it isn't an issue at all because modding PoE is so difficult.

[Gromnir]

nexus is not run by bethesda, yes?

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/about/about/?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps keep in mind that Gromnir were serious when he said he knows next to nothing about the modding community.  am genuine not knowing how much connection bethesda has with nexus.  bethesda is a publisher, and obsidian is not, so there is differences, but am honest ignorant 'bout most such sites save as an end user who has never even considered paying for a fan-made mod.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Gromnir

[qwert_44643]

As for PoE modding no much right now.

 

There were various reasons why the charge for mods was prosted from the simple one of players did not want to be forced to pay for something that they had been getting free.  I also think Value CEO made a statement that the modding community was too complicated because many mods to use talent from various people which is true can be seen from the credits given in mods.  At one time I belonged to a group of quite a few people who worked together.  So that is true but  I think Value tried to save face by using it as a reason to withdraw the charging.

 

 

 If i remember right alot of the protesters was angry that the modders hardly got anything and Beth/Valve got  a huge chunk.....

A lot more than one said that.   Also TES players tend to install many mods.  Even if each mod purchased only cost 1 USD each the cost could add up to several hundreds.  

 

 

yeah i have over 100 mods for skyrim....but even modders who said that they were gonna charge for a month and then if you wanted to you get for free were ruthlessly attacked.

[Nakia]

@ Gromnir, as far as I know there is no connection between NEXUS and Bethesda.  NEXUS was started by one man who saw a good potential for the service and he was right.    I am only familiar with the Bethesda modding community.  Qualifier:  At one time I knew a very little about the IE modders only because I installed some of the mods.   Sites that provides for downloading of mods do not need to be connected with the Game owners and as far as I know usually are not.   

 

As for what Valve did IIRC they required a minimum sales figure of 300 USD before the modder would get any money.  The modders who participated should not have been attacked but unfortunately not all mod users are rational.

[Cantousent]

From a practical standpoint, I would think the current discussion is probably an example of why Obsidz wouldn't want a sub forum. Oh, I know folks can say that these scenarios of plagiarism, solicitation, and animosity wouldn't happen here, but they *could* happen here.

 

The way around this is simply to have a clearly stated policy that does not allow folks to solicit donations on this site nor to link to direct solicitations. Also, any mods that might in any way whatsoever infringe on copyright protections will also be excised. ...But these are pain in the backside measures, not just for Obsidz, but for the mod squad as well. Of course, a few of the squadies are volunteerimg to do it, but most moderators would rather *not* play the heavy and instead help folks or have fun with the community.

 

Ultimately, the upside *must* seem greater to the Obsidz admin than the downside or they simply will have no compelling reason to create a sub forum or even support modding in general. This whole commercial aspect of modding sounds like a nightmare to me. I can only imagine how it seems to the powers that be.

[Nakia]

The upside of user mods is that it prolongs the life and interest of the game.  IE games and TES games have been prolonged far beyond their normal life time.  People still buy them although at a discounted price.    This also means that if PoE becomes a series it will have a potential broader fan base.  User mods act as free advertising for the game.

 

The downside I think is pretty clearly stated in various posts .  However I would like to mention that NEXUS does IMO a good job of policing the mods uploaded there not perfect but very good.  NEXUS has strict rules about content and copyright infringement.  

[anameforobsidian]

Not only do mods drastically extend the life of the game.  They alert the people making the game to new possibilities in the engine.  But I think the bigger issue is that Obsidian said they would be as mod friendly as possible.  Opening and ignoring a subforum would be a token step to bolster their credibility.

[Xaratas]

Also, any mods that might in any way whatsoever infringe on copyright protections will also be excised.

 

These big war on copyright, these over-boarding fear of stepping over some line. Arrrg. The music and motion picture industry has really won this war if people see always and at all places copyright infringements.

There is common sense in the people. There is fair use. There is allowance of derived works if it has high enough value (Schöpfungshöhe in German). So maybe there are a few 4chan minded people with free time, its no reason not to try it.

 

Not only do mods drastically extend the life of the game.  They alert the people making the game to new possibilities in the engine.  But I think the bigger issue is that Obsidian said they would be as mod friendly as possible.  Opening and ignoring a subforum would be a token step to bolster their credibility.

 

Obsidian has done quite a large amount of work to get this as mod friendly as possible (with regard to the images it is not), maybe out of necessarity, but all Stories, Quests, Conversations, Scripted Interactions lays out in plain text. Its sad that for anything graphic related one has to use the forbidden expensive unitiy editor. As far as assets go there is quite a large possibility space for modders to explore. With the use of C# as Language we have nearly sourcecode access, and with „a bit“ hard recoding in the ie-mod project there can be much archived. But someone has to do it. Someone who understands coding, or want it to learn out of free will an curiosity.

 

These someones would i like to see attracted by a dedicated modding subforum.

 

 

 

And go away with these stupid Valve monetarisation scheme. If its done for money its work and not fun.

[Gromnir]

 

Also, any mods that might in any way whatsoever infringe on copyright protections will also be excised.

 

 

There is common sense in the people. 

in all of recorded history, has anybody been foolish for underestimating the common sense o' people?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 21, 2015 by Gromnir

[qwert_44643]

or maybe at bare minium sticky a mod topic.

[Cantousent]

 

 

 

 

Also, any mods that might in any way whatsoever infringe on copyright protections will also be excised.

There is common sense in the people.

in all of recorded history, has anybody been foolish for underestimating the common sense o' people?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Can't EDIT: Sorry, on phone and a little diminished, but I get you Xaratas. However I can understand Obsidz acting cautiously. I don't want their budget going to vett possible lawsuits. For my part, I think the best advice I could give from experience and certainly not from an official capacity (which I don't have at any rate) is to keep up the good job you've all done being civil and making logical arguments. *That* might win the day for your side when the worry is decisiveness or acrimony. I still think they should be at least relatively cautious about copyrighted materials, but that's neither my risk nor my call.