#RedditRevolt

[Amentep]

Not really sure Leiberman and Clinton are conservatives based on their "big ideas"; albeit I understand that its possible to be "conservative" in some areas and "liberal" in others - to the point that a binary nomenclature is useless in describing great variations like Monte suggests (but then these gradations are steamrolled in the US by our binary monolithic overlords, the Dems and Repubs).

 

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

[BruceVC]

I can point to plenty of democrats like Joseph Leiberman and Hilary Clinton that have a terrible track record when it comes to censorship.  I'd consider them just as conservative as a number of Republicans.  Really I find that the concept of left and right in American politics is completely overstated.  They are all pretty much different shades of the same color.

 

You might find this hard to believe, but I'm not a liberal in any real sense.  I am a hardcore moderate, and I think both conservatives and liberals are crazy.  

" hardcore moderate "  ?...that just sounds like another name for a liberal..semantics 

 

What is the difference between that and a liberal ?

[Monte Carlo]

I found this quite an interesting and reasoned take on the debate.

 

http://observer.com/2015/06/the-pecking-disorder-social-justice-warriors-gone-wild/

[Gromnir]

I found this quite an interesting and reasoned take on the debate.

 

http://observer.com/2015/06/the-pecking-disorder-social-justice-warriors-gone-wild/

modern ism debates annoy us.  taking from the linked opine, am agreeing that socioeconomic issues is paramount, but is also true that there is historic race-related advantages and disadvantages that has resulted in modern economic disparities.  am recognizing that non-whites were disadvantaged +50 years ago. ok. fix the problem, discuss, and fix.  start blathering about white privilege and the real issues get lost.  functional attack some guy for no other reason than that he were born with Y chromosome and that all his grandparents were white is &*$#ing messed up.  attack somebody who didn't actual do anything wrong and who has no way to defend himself is only gonna lead to understandable animosity towards the attacker, and the attacker is likely a minority or women or liberal.  your average middle-class white kid did not go to exeter and get a near auto-admission to ivy league schools.  yeah, the ultra-wealthy get advantages we cannot hope to legitimize to those who got nothing, but that is true regardless o' race or gender. take some moderate conservative white guy and tell him that he should feel bad 'cause o' white privilege and chances are he is gonna react defensive... and he is gonna be freaking justified for feeling defensive.

 

is stoopid arguments when sjw and modern notions o' a host o' other isms is discussed.  instead o' discussing anything meaningful, we discuss the legitimacy o' the damned labels?  that is utter idiotic.

 

real solution: find some way to give all children two loving and supportive parents.  all major social ills would disappear in a couple generations.  am only partial joking.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Not really sure Leiberman and Clinton are conservatives based on their "big ideas"; albeit I understand that its possible to be "conservative" in some areas and "liberal" in others - to the point that a binary nomenclature is useless in describing great variations like Monte suggests (but then these gradations are steamrolled in the US by our binary monolithic overlords, the Dems and Repubs).

 

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

If you define conservative as "slow to change" rather than the vague label that describes a set of political beliefs, it's arguable that Clinton and Lieberman are both conservative. Of course I'd say Clinton is more a chameleon whose positions shift based in what's most politically advantageous while Lieberman is a hawkish Israel first kind of guy rather than conservative, but I find the label useless in regards to political positions.

[BruceVC]

 

I found this quite an interesting and reasoned take on the debate.

 

http://observer.com/2015/06/the-pecking-disorder-social-justice-warriors-gone-wild/

modern ism debates annoy us.  taking from the linked opine, am agreeing that socioeconomic issues is paramount, but is also true that there is historic race-related advantages and disadvantages that has resulted in modern economic disparities.  am recognizing that non-whites were disadvantaged +50 years ago. ok. fix the problem, discuss, and fix.  start blathering about white privilege and the real issues get lost.  functional attack some guy for no other reason than that he were born with Y chromosome and that all his grandparents were white is &*$#ing messed up.  attack somebody who didn't actual do anything wrong and who has no way to defend himself is only gonna lead to understandable animosity towards the attacker, and the attacker is likely a minority or women or liberal.  your average middle-class white kid did not go to exeter and get a near auto-admission to ivy league schools.  yeah, the ultra-wealthy get advantages we cannot hope to legitimize to those who got nothing, but that is true regardless o' race or gender. take some moderate conservative white guy and tell him that he should feel bad 'cause o' white privilege and chances are he is gonna react defensive... and he is gonna be freaking justified for feeling defensive.

 

is stoopid arguments when sjw and modern notions o' a host o' other isms is discussed.  instead o' discussing anything meaningful, we discuss the legitimacy o' the damned labels?  that is utter idiotic.

 

real solution: find some way to give all children two loving and supportive parents.  all major social ills would disappear in a couple generations.  am only partial joking.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

That's a very good post Gromnir, seriously brilliant. That must be one of the most evocative, logical and persuasive arguments I have ever heard about the negative aspect around generalizations around " white privilege " 

 

In South Africa one of the criticisms about our new political system is are comments similar to   " whites haven't given enough to the new South Africa " and "whites still have far too many economic advantages ", its very similar to raising issues of " white privilege " 

 

I am actually going to use some of your perspective and points in the next debate I am in on this radio station I listen to. You make a lot of sense on this topic 

[Bartimaeus]

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

 

Actually, from what I recall of my time living in California, California has a lot of fairly conservative towns and cities...and then a few super liberal cities like LA. A state doesn't hold a referendum that ends up being in favor of banning gay marriage (even if said ban is struck down by the courts disregarding the will/tyranny of the majority) by being super liberal.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Ineth]

I found this quite an interesting and reasoned take on the debate.

 

http://observer.com/2015/06/the-pecking-disorder-social-justice-warriors-gone-wild/

 

Even more to the point is this other article which it links to:

Not a Very P.C. Thing to Say -- How the language police are perverting liberalism (by Jonathan Chait)

 

On the historical context:

 

After political correctness burst onto the academic scene in the late ’80s and early ’90s, it went into a long remission. Now it has returned.

 

On the Kafkaesk nature of political correctness / SJWism:

 

If a person who is accused of bias attempts to defend his intentions, he merely compounds his own guilt. (Here one might find oneself accused of man/white/straightsplaining.) It is likewise taboo to request that the accusation be rendered in a less hostile manner. This is called “tone policing.” If you are accused of bias, or “called out,” reflection and apology are the only acceptable response — to dispute a call-out only makes it worse. There is no allowance in p.c. culture for the possibility that the accusation may be erroneous.

 

On liberalism vs the P.C. left:

 

Liberals believe (or ought to believe) that social progress can continue while we maintain our traditional ideal of a free political marketplace where we can reason together as individuals. Political correctness challenges that bedrock liberal ideal. While politically less threatening than conservatism (the far right still commands far more power in American life), the p.c. left is actually more philosophically threatening. It is an undemocratic creed.

 

[Amentep]

 

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

 

Actually, from what I recall of my time living in California, California has a lot of fairly conservative towns and cities...and then a few super liberal cities like LA. A state doesn't hold a referendum that ends up being in favor of banning gay marriage (even if said ban is struck down by the courts disregarding the will/tyranny of the majority) by being super liberal.

 

 

Jokes based on perceptions aren't funny if you point out the perception is wrong.

 

You killed that joke in its prime.  You monster.

[Bartimaeus]

 

 

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

 

Actually, from what I recall of my time living in California, California has a lot of fairly conservative towns and cities...and then a few super liberal cities like LA. A state doesn't hold a referendum that ends up being in favor of banning gay marriage (even if said ban is struck down by the courts disregarding the will/tyranny of the majority) by being super liberal.

 

 

Jokes based on perceptions aren't funny if you point out the perception is wrong.

 

You killed that joke in its prime.  You monster.

 

 

Sorry: you're not the first one I've come across to make comments about California's "apparent" "overwhelming" liberalism, so when it comes up, I can't help but similarly comment...

Edited July 20, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Amentep]

 

 

 

And anyhow you're in California, that makes you automatically more liberal than 90% of the USA.

 

Actually, from what I recall of my time living in California, California has a lot of fairly conservative towns and cities...and then a few super liberal cities like LA. A state doesn't hold a referendum that ends up being in favor of banning gay marriage (even if said ban is struck down by the courts disregarding the will/tyranny of the majority) by being super liberal.

 

 

Jokes based on perceptions aren't funny if you point out the perception is wrong.

 

You killed that joke in its prime.  You monster.

 

 

Sorry: you're not the first one I've come across to make comments about California's "apparent" "overwhelming" liberalism, so when it comes up, I can't help but similarly comment...

 

 

Joke. Killer.

 

Yeah California isn't the super liberal state that its perception is.  Shockingly Georgia isn't full of Banjo playing hillbillies either.  And Texas isn't oil wells and cowboys and people fighting Mexico at the Alamo.

[Malcador]

Next you'll be saying there's more to Florida than white trash, angry Cubans and old folk.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And Texas isn't oil wells and cowboys and people fighting Mexico at the Alamo.

Well actually...

 

Next you'll be saying there's more to Florida than white trash, angry Cubans and old folk.

There are gators but otherwise that's correct.

Edited July 20, 2015 by KaineParker

[Amentep]

And Burmese pythons.

[Gromnir]

am gonna clarify, just a tad. 

 

racism is a problem.  sexism is a problem.  homophobia is a problem.   at some point, those problems gotta be faced and discussed.  am having met folks who tell us that there is no "real" racism in the US these days, other than a few extreme examples kept alive by aryan brotherhood and the like.  am needing to disagree.  the isms exist, but the label discussions has made it so that it is easier to pretend that there ain't no "real" isms.  

 

am thinking hurl mentioned that his students have a tendency to see racism and sexism everywhere.  if he didn't say that, we apologize earnestly.  nevertheless, that observation matches our own experience. college aged and younger kids is so likely to see sexism and racism that the terms lose meaning.  is not just kids neither-- is pundits that do the same.   

 

yeah, we do gotta face the issues.  at some point we gotta admit that racism still exists and that it ain't limited to cross burning rednecks.  the thing is, in a free and open society, there ain't no institutional apparatus to quick and effective change what people believe.  discussion o' racism by a tv panel or an op-ed in the washington post doesn't combat racism. do a gi-joe style psa on racism?  even education in schools is slow and frequent self-defeating.  sure, somebody like hurl teaches his kids how wrong is racism, and then you go into the school cafeteria and sees how the kids is often segregating themselves. change racism you were taught by parents and friends since you were old enough to make sense o' the following:

 

 

get more jobs and a better future for minorities.... and to a lesser degree, women.  is still a glass ceiling in various industries.  when the minority, driving his bmw outta his gated community, is confronted by a gap-toothed, trailer park hillbilly claiming expertise on eugenics, the situation is laughable and near painless.  is an exaggerated example 'course.  not need have bmws for minorities to make situation better.  more jobs.  better future.  a better future don't require that the future be better than what white folks got.  noticeable better than now would make a big difference.

 

regardless, we nevertheless believe that the current sjw climate (not blaming sjw folks alone for that)  has resulted in an almost paradoxical dilution o' terminology while at the same time increasing polarization o' viewpoint.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 20, 2015 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

This thread turned super awesome.  

 

Having driven through Texas once, I can confirm that it is ten gallon hats and T-bone steaks.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This thread turned super awesome.  

 

Having driven through Texas once, I can confirm that it is ten gallon hats and T-bone steaks.  

It's actually ribeye steaks and I ride a horse to work every morning.

[Hurlshort]

 

am thinking hurl mentioned that his students have a tendency to see racism and sexism everywhere.  if he didn't say that, we apologize earnestly.  nevertheless, that observation matches our own experience. college aged and younger kids is so likely to see sexism and racism that the terms lose meaning.  is not just kids neither-- is pundits that do the same.   

 

yeah, we do gotta face the issues.  at some point we gotta admit that racism still exists and that it ain't limited to cross burning rednecks.  the thing is, in a free and open society, there ain't no institutional apparatus to quick and effective change what people believe.  discussion o' racism by a tv panel or an op-ed in the washington post doesn't combat racism. do a gi-joe style psa on racism?  even education in schools is slow and frequent self-defeating.  sure, somebody like hurl teaches his kids how wrong is racism, and then you go into the school cafeteria and sees how the kids is often segregating themselves. change racism you were taught by parents and friends since you were old enough to make sense o' the following:

 

 

That's an interesting point.  I think the best way to combat an overly PC society is with a mix of context and humor.  Yeah, I want my students to be sensitive to racism and sexism, I want them to empathize with one another.  I want them to be accepting of each other and create a positive environment that fosters growth for all.  There is always room for improvement there.

 

But I also want them to understand how far we have come as a society, as a global civilization.  How much better these specific kids have than they would have 5,000, 500, or even 50 years ago.  

 

And I don't want them to lose the ability to laugh at themselves and at cultural differences.  Should I censor a project group that names themselves "5 Asians and a White Guy" because they focused on race?  Of course not, it was playful and fun.  Should I tone down my super exaggerated French accent when teaching about the Franks?  Maybe, but I haven't gotten fired yet.  

[Ineth]

Hurlshot sounds like a pretty cool teacher...

[Hurlshort]

Hurlshot sounds like a pretty cool teacher...

 

I have my moments, but it's never really my intention to be cool.  I have my good days and my bad days, and at the end of the year there will be a few students who love me, a few that hate me, and a lot that are indifferent.