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Posted

Pretty soon everyone on this forum is going to have a Bruce quote for a sig.

 

Yeah....the only issue is I know you guys aren't representing my view properly....you don't agree with it you find it funny. But when I read it I can't help laughing as well ...my various lines do sound funny and contradictory :lol:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Posted

Meh, Latin should still be required learning, that'll teach proper sentence construction. Marcus in via stat, puella puellam puellae puellae puella etcetera. Then we could have a proper discussion about the differences between subjectives/ accusatives/ genetives/ datives and ablatives and could possibly fit it some subjunctives too.
 

But really, much of the "pressure to change everything" boils down to innocuous things like "maybe have some more black or female protagonists", which is completely orthogonal to how a game actually plays like, and therefore should be, I dunno, low on the priority list of things to complain about?

Sure, but that works both ways- if it's low on the priority list to complain about having a black or female protagonist because it doesn't effect how the game plays then surely it is low on the priority list to complain about not having a black or female protagonist because that doesn't effect how the game plays either. In practical terms it isn't people complaining about female or black protagonists in general, it's usually about the outside pressure to include them even when it clearly isn't appropriate such as KC: Deliverance. I've never seen people complain about the presence of ethnic/ sex options in any game in which those options exist in chargen. But those extreme requests such as the Deliverance one tend to colour (heh) the whole discussion precisely because it's so stupid and doctrinaire.

 

Personally, I don't think you're going to attract more women and minorities into 'mainstream' gaming by trying to convert CoD or other AAAs of its type, that's unworkable. A large proportion of the women who like The SIms or Farmville will never like CoD unless it becomes notCoD along the way- and at that point they've lost most of the people who buy it now. Both the Sims and Farmville are largely aimed at women and are very big sellers (or big 'sellers' in Farmville type cases) already. I'm not particularly keen on the AAA model myself, my preferences are decidedly niche in the main part. But I'm not short of games to play that I like, not short at all so while I may occasionally ridicule AAA games I also don't particularly care that they aren't aimed at me because there are alternatives. There are already alternatives for everyone in gaming, every single game does not need to be designed to appeal to everyone.

  • Like 1
Posted

Meh, Latin should still be required learning, that'll teach proper sentence construction. Marcus in via stat, puella puellam puellae puellae puella etcetera. Then we could have a proper discussion about the differences between subjectives/ accusatives/ genetives/ datives and ablatives and could possibly fit it some subjunctives too. 

 

Please don't remind me, I still have flashbacks.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI

  • Like 2

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

Posted

 

But really, much of the "pressure to change everything" boils down to innocuous things like "maybe have some more black or female protagonists", which is completely orthogonal to how a game actually plays like, and therefore should be, I dunno, low on the priority list of things to complain about?

 

Sure, but that works both ways- if it's low on the priority list to complain about having a black or female protagonist because it doesn't effect how the game plays then surely it is low on the priority list to complain about not having a black or female protagonist because that doesn't effect how the game plays either.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I can kind of empathize with the desire to be represented a bit more, because games with a fixed black or female protagonist are kinda rare. (Although, to be fair, there seems to be an explosion of female protagonists lately. Dishonored 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Hellblade. Progress?)

 

 

In practical terms it isn't people complaining about female or black protagonists in general, it's usually about the outside pressure to include them even when it clearly isn't appropriate such as KC: Deliverance. 

 

 

Isn't it, though?

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted

 

 

But really, much of the "pressure to change everything" boils down to innocuous things like "maybe have some more black or female protagonists", which is completely orthogonal to how a game actually plays like, and therefore should be, I dunno, low on the priority list of things to complain about?

 

Sure, but that works both ways- if it's low on the priority list to complain about having a black or female protagonist because it doesn't effect how the game plays then surely it is low on the priority list to complain about not having a black or female protagonist because that doesn't effect how the game plays either.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I can kind of empathize with the desire to be represented a bit more, because games with a fixed black or female protagonist are kinda rare. (Although, to be fair, there seems to be an explosion of female protagonists lately. Dishonored 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Hellblade. Progress?)

 

 

In practical terms it isn't people complaining about female or black protagonists in general, it's usually about the outside pressure to include them even when it clearly isn't appropriate such as KC: Deliverance. 

 

 

Isn't it, though?

 

 

Yeah they were not present there as it was multiple times proven, this one paiting of black princes is from Bohemia, but princes was from spain or somewhere. Only minority present were jews and maybe gypsies.

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Posted

 

Yeah they were not present there as it was multiple times proven, this one paiting of black princes is from Bohemia, but princes was from spain or somewhere. Only minority present were jews and maybe gypsies.

 

 

Well it's not like it matters much; even if there were ethnic minorities (isn't that... kind of meaningless in a medieval context, by the way?) in medieval Bohemia, the creator's free to say "well this game only covers an area of 9 square kilometers*, it's entirely plausible that there are none in this specific area".

 

*I think?

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted

 

 

Yeah they were not present there as it was multiple times proven, this one paiting of black princes is from Bohemia, but princes was from spain or somewhere. Only minority present were jews and maybe gypsies.

 

 

Well it's not like it matters much; even if there were ethnic minorities (isn't that... kind of meaningless in a medieval context, by the way?) in medieval Bohemia, the creator's free to say "well this game only covers an area of 9 square kilometers*, it's entirely plausible that there are none in this specific area".

 

*I think?

 

 

It was their point, you can argue that they may be some travellers, pilgrims and such but on such small scale its almost guarantee that you will never encouter them. On other hand i think they state that jews will be in

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Posted (edited)

 

 

But really, much of the "pressure to change everything" boils down to innocuous things like "maybe have some more black or female protagonists", which is completely orthogonal to how a game actually plays like, and therefore should be, I dunno, low on the priority list of things to complain about?

 

Sure, but that works both ways- if it's low on the priority list to complain about having a black or female protagonist because it doesn't effect how the game plays then surely it is low on the priority list to complain about not having a black or female protagonist because that doesn't effect how the game plays either.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I can kind of empathize with the desire to be represented a bit more, because games with a fixed black or female protagonist are kinda rare. (Although, to be fair, there seems to be an explosion of female protagonists lately. Dishonored 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Hellblade. Progress?)

 

 

In practical terms it isn't people complaining about female or black protagonists in general, it's usually about the outside pressure to include them even when it clearly isn't appropriate such as KC: Deliverance. 

 

 

Isn't it, though?

 

 

sooo... you want to imply (or the author of the poor text) that in the 10th century you would see more people or similar level of people of different ethnic origin than you have nowadays, where like 98% of populace or more is of standard CEE-nordic/slav origin?

 

you need to take notice, that those pieces of art are just that, piece of art, and were in most cases transcriptions of events and people presented in other art coming from areas near Rome and Jerusalem (in times of Crusades)... the authors of these art pieces in 90% probability have not seen a person of color with their own eyes... you can clearly see that from the features on the faces of the people presented on those paintings... Does a person of Moor/African/Arabic origin have those kind of facial features as are presented on the art pieces?

 

I know it is hard to grasp for colonials with less than 250years of history, but things were much different those 1000years ago in Central Europe... the most you see the contact was the time of great mgirations during the late Roman empire era when the Huns were rampaging eastern fringes of Europe, and later during Mongol Invasions, and last but not least, during the Ottoman Empire, that reached as far as Vienna with their military expeditions, and their occupation time of Balkans, which is longer than existence of NA modern countries, left a significant imprint on genetic composition of populace in that region...

 

Traveling in 10th century was not easy, and certainly not for individuals, from the perspective of time cost, travel cost, and dangers on and off the road, traveling was fairly restricted, especially for people of different ethnic origin, as they would clearly stand out, and we are talking about dark ages, where there were witch hunts, etc. where your dark skinned person would be considered a bad omen and most likely killed due to prejudice and religious fears...

 

Just to bring an example... early christian pilgrims in 10th century, form neighboring regions would get in most cases killed, and those were not vastly different in appearance than inhabitants of the "pagan" land... for example a christian pilgrim sent by Polish king killed in Latvia.

 

As for female protagonist... realistically if she would not be of some wealthy aristocrat family, she would have hard time doing anything else than work in the field, pasturing pigs, and doing typical activities in around of homestead.... Even in the noble and wealthy family it would depend a lot on her father how far she would be allowed to do... we are talking about 10th century, and not 16-17th century where residents with citizenship rights of bigger cities and various guild castes would emerge to power... people from rural areas and from towns without "city" rights would be much more limited....

Edited by Darkpriest
Posted (edited)

Although, to be fair, there seems to be an explosion of female protagonists lately. Dishonored 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Hellblade. Progress?

Not really.

There has however been a change in the way games from E3 have been reported about, as Mr Chmielars notes, where games that do include good female playable characters are lauded, instead of the continuous shaming of those that lack it, which is a big improvement.

Edited by GhoulishVisage
  • Like 3

When in doubt, blame the elves.

 

I have always hated the word "censorship", I prefer seeing it as just removing content that isn't suitable or is considered offensive

 

Posted

 

you need to take notice, that those pieces of art are just that, piece of art, and were in most cases transcriptions of events and people presented in other art coming from areas near Rome and Jerusalem (in times of Crusades)... the authors of these art pieces in 90% probability have not seen a person of color with their own eyes... 

 

 

 

Art historians seem to disagree.

 

Although, to be fair, that's from a different period than the one the game is set in, I think?

 
 

 

As for female protagonist... realistically if she would not be of some wealthy aristocrat family, she would have hard time doing anything else than work in the field, pasturing pigs, and doing typical activities in around of homestead....

 

 

 

Keep in mind that history isn't one of my strong suits, but couldn't the very same thing be said of male protagonists as well?

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted

 

Although, to be fair, there seems to be an explosion of female protagonists lately. Dishonored 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Hellblade. Progress?

 

Not really.

 

 

I remain unconvinced.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted

 

 

you need to take notice, that those pieces of art are just that, piece of art, and were in most cases transcriptions of events and people presented in other art coming from areas near Rome and Jerusalem (in times of Crusades)... the authors of these art pieces in 90% probability have not seen a person of color with their own eyes... 

 

 

 

Art historians seem to disagree.

 

Although, to be fair, that's from a different period than the one the game is set in, I think?

 
 

 

As for female protagonist... realistically if she would not be of some wealthy aristocrat family, she would have hard time doing anything else than work in the field, pasturing pigs, and doing typical activities in around of homestead....

 

 

 

Keep in mind that history isn't one of my strong suits, but couldn't the very same thing be said of male protagonists as well?

 

 

It was more common to send young men for local lords militia for example, or if he would be talented, some craftsman could get him as an apprentice. He could also be sent by the family to serve under a knight, but it was mostly reserved for people of "better birth", yet it could be possible to get into service under a knight as a farmer's origin boy, although in 99% exclusively through service in local lord's militia first. That was one of the ways to get into nobility, by serving a knight and then becoming a knight through features of valor, if you would get recommended to the king by the lord/knight noble landowner IIRC. In vast majority of cases a farmer boy would remain a farmer boy, but it was certainly in realms of possibility to advance... I have no exact details on females, but the career of court lady servicing the aristocrat's daughter / wife or a courtesan, were probably the peak, that or serving the church (which also applied to males)... There was no formal education, aside of the one held by priesthood and the church internally and for the lords, that's why it was so influential in that era on the court of kings and nobility. Majority was illiterate and had problems with basic counting... considering also a much stronger position of a male in that society, there was VERY little room for adventurous females.... Fun fact is that women had some more influence and were even seen as warriors in certain societies during the Roman Era, but with the "Dark Ages" the roles have somewhat changed as also tribes formed countries, etc, and rule of church became more relevant... the period of 8-10 century what I would call Dark Ages, although many modern historians avoid that term nowadays, as it has purely negative outlook, while there were some advances made.. given the whole period of Middle Ages (5th to 13th cent) there surely were various cultural changes, but in the period of 9-10 century, it would really not look so great...

 

The best you would get were the contacts with the Byzantine empire in that period of time and that's where most of the diversity could come from (as well as contacts through Italian peninsula and merchant ships through Sycily to northern Africa or in case of France, the Iberian Peninsula with Moors in the south). Jews and some other migratory ethnics would appear in Northern Europe in the parts of various German stats/Holy Roman Empire, Polish kingdom and Czech kingdom, but while their skin tone would be slightly different it would still be considered similar, unlike if you would send some Saharan Numidian there....

Posted (edited)

 

you need to take notice, that those pieces of art are just that, piece of art, and were in most cases transcriptions of events and people presented in other art coming from areas near Rome and Jerusalem (in times of Crusades)... the authors of these art pieces in 90% probability have not seen a person of color with their own eyes...

 

 

Art historians seem to disagree.

 

Although, to be fair, that's from a different period than the one the game is set in, I think?

 

Yes, although it's about an earlier period of time - but also about a slightly different region.

The point, though, is that the article basically is about a very small group of black people at the court of a specific imperial dynasty (two emperors, to be more precise), and the reason that they had those people is their acquisition of Southern Italy and Sicily in the 1190s. Kingdom Come: Deliverance is set in Bohemia in 1403 (according to the website, I don't really follow that game). The Hohenstaufen emperors (the topic of the article) who were also kings of Sicily mostly lived in Italy, and if they came north of the Alps (which was not very often), they usually visited the Rhine area. In the 1250s, the dynasty was toppled, and the Holy Roman emperors lost control over Sicily.

This means that the article isn't of much use for deciding that issue, and in the few conclusions where it might provide hints, it tends to support KC:D's stance. (Disclaimer: I don't have access to the complete article, I can only see preview and summary.)

Providing examples of black people in art from the period as the blog post does, isn't really helpful, either. People always knew that there were black people in Africa (and neighbouring regions), and of course they could depict the queen of Sheba as a black woman. That doesn't mean that they had actually met one in their home region.

I'm not sure if they include cities like Prague in KC:D. That they don't have black persons in rural Bohemia at that time is historically quite sound, though.

Edited by Varana
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Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

Posted

 

The point, though, is that the article basically is about a very small group of black people at the court of a specific imperial dynasty (two emperors, to be more precise), and the reason that they had those people is their acquisition of Southern Italy and Sicily in the 1190s. Kingdom Come: Deliverance is set in Bohemia in 1403 (according to the website, I don't really follow that game). The Hohenstaufen emperors (the topic of the article) who were also kings of Sicily mostly lived in Italy, and if they came north of the Alps (which was not very often), they usually visited the Rhine area. In the 1250s, the dynasty was toppled, and the Holy Roman emperors lost control over Sicily.

This means that the article isn't of much use for deciding that issue, and in the few conclusions where it might provide hints, it tends to support KC:D's stance. (Disclaimer: I don't have access to the complete article, I can only see preview and summary.)

Providing examples of black people in art from the period as the blog post does, isn't really helpful, either. People always knew that there were black people in Africa (and neighbouring regions), and of course they could depict the queen of Sheba as a black woman. That doesn't mean that they had actually met one in their home region.

I'm not sure if they include cities like Prague in KC:D. That they don't have black persons in rural Bohemia at that time is historically quite sound, though.

 

 

 

That was kind of the point of the original complaint, though. You could totally make a realistic medieval game set in Central Europe which features people of color. That they chose to focus on a specific locale and time period where people of color were not present is an artistic choice. Therefore "can't, because Historical Accuracy!" rings hollow as a defense.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted (edited)

That was kind of the point of the original complaint, though. You could totally make a realistic medieval game set in Central Europe which features people of color. That they chose to focus on a specific locale and time period where people of color were not present is an artistic choice. Therefore "can't, because Historical Accuracy!" rings hollow as a defense.

 

But wasn't it the whole motivation of that developer team, to make a game about the medieval version of their own home county / villages where they grew up? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't follow that controversy too closely.)

If so, then the locale was kinda set in stone.

 

Also, a medieval Central-European "locale and time period" where including people of color would make sense, would be different in other ways too. It would probably have to be a more urban than rural setting, for example.

If developers were bound to such a restriction, it would mean that certain settings and stories could simply not be explored in games at all. And for what? Just for an entirely superficial "diversity" bonus?

Do you really think that's a way to enrich an art form?

Edited by Ineth

"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

Posted

 

Also, a medieval Central-European "locale and time period" where including people of color would make sense, would be different in other ways too. It would probably have to be a more urban than rural setting, for example.

If developers were bound to such a restriction, it would mean that certain settings and stories could simply not be explored in games at all. And for what? Just for an entirely superficial "diversity" bonus?

Do you really think that's a way to enrich an art form?

 

 

But who said developers should be bound by such restrictions?

 

A brief timeline of the events as far as I understand them:

 

- A blogger who goes by the moniker of "MedievalPOC" is asked the question whether it's reasonable for a game set in medieval Bohemia to feature people of color. He responds by a lot of tangentially related art history and scholarly works about the demographic makeup of various central european countries between the 8th and 15th centuries, concluding that historical accuracy allows for, but does not necessitate the inclusion of non-white people in a game set in medieval Europe, making said lack of inclusion an artistic choice on part of the developer. He also snarks a bit about how - in the developers' words -  “the ultimate character customization tool ever invented” includes zero customization options beyond "caucasian male". The word "racism" or "sexism" appears nowhere in the post.

 

- Somehow, down the line, "allows for the inclusion of various groups of people of color" - like Romani or Cuman people - gets distorted into "there's evidence of the existence of a major black population in medieval Bohemia". Related harrassment ensues, for some reason.

 

- Kingdom Come: Deliverance gets 1 million dollars' worth of funding, strongly implying that the "controversy" - if it can even be called that - hasn't really impacted the influx of kickstarter money in any meaningfully negative fashion. Also worth noting: the blogger in question voiced no desire to see anything changed in the final product. This, of course, has not stopped Daniel Vavra from claiming there was "a witch hunt" against him, which is "affecting [his] artistic freedom" (even though, by his own admission in the very same interview, he is "not going to change [anything] because of outside pressure"). So far, I've seen no evidence of such.
 
- Despite the aforementioned facts, Vavra is still treated like the victim here, whose artistic freedom is being infringed upon; moreover, anybody mentioning that the possibility exists for historically accurate games set in medieval Europe that feature people of color is immediately assumed to want to restrict developers to such depictions.
  • Like 3

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted (edited)

I have absolutely zero interest in debating KC:D's development, social media of any kind, and what Vávra said or did not say. I wrote about medieval history.

That was kind of the point of the original complaint, though. You could totally make a realistic medieval game set in Central Europe which features people of color. That they chose to focus on a specific locale and time period where people of color were not present is an artistic choice. Therefore "can't, because Historical Accuracy!" rings hollow as a defense.

Err... no to the last sentence. After you chose that setting, for whatever reasons (and if someone believes the reason was in order to not have black people, they should go F themselves), you can argue with "historical accuracy". The argument was not "we couldn't find a setting with black people".

And I have serious problems with the notion that choosing a setting which makes it very unlikely or impossible to feature X is in some way a negative or inferior thing.

Edited by Varana

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

Posted

 

And I have serious problems with the notion that choosing a setting which makes it very unlikely or impossible to feature X is in some way a negative or inferior thing.

 

 

 

Yet nobody kicked up a stink when people exclaimed on the Pillars subforum that the existence of guns in their fantasy is a dealbreaker.

 

Why is being upset over having/not having guns in a fantasy game in any way a more valid preference than being upset over having/not having the option to freely choose your character's skin tone? I mean, both of them can be seen as silly on some level, yet only one of those complaints triggers a wave of harrassment in response.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

Posted (edited)

 

 

That was kind of the point of the original complaint, though. You could totally make a realistic medieval game set in Central Europe which features people of color. That they chose to focus on a specific locale and time period where people of color were not present is an artistic choice. Therefore "can't, because Historical Accuracy!" rings hollow as a defense.

 

If by could, you mean stretch the the reasoning to something which had like 1% of likelihood, then maybe... if it would be set in Byzantine empire and Constantinople city itself, then there is a likelihood of it being believable that people of color could be represented, but if you move up north to the land of German forests, Polish farmlands and Nordic longhouses, there is near zero chance of it being realistic... You want make a game about Crusade or a Spanish war with Moors, you will get some ethnical diversity. The best you got to some ethnically different person in the tales was Naziir from tales of Robin Hood, and even then because a very specific situation after the Crusade.

 

1st, the only "international language" at that time was fairly dead latin, but due to widespread heritage of Roman empire it was used by scholars and lords when communicating with each other in various countries, other people would speak various local dialects, which were used by illiterate people, and was not even a written language until the fall from grace of latin among the scholars and lords (so no reading, no writing) - hence the role of criers in that time.

 

2nd, again, the religious situation in that time, and peoples mentality... a non-christian, would have a really hard time, especially of a very dark skin color, so unless that person would be a servant on King's or some very influential lord's court and you would encounter that person there, there is really low chance of seeing a person of dark skin color...

 

I mean... travel to Poland in today's environment, and check how many people of color you will see on the streets... with exception of the Capital city and 3-4 more major cities, you will probably not see one, and in 99,99% you will not see one in the rural areas of that region.  (I mentioned Poland, as it was not and is not really a target for economic migrations). Pre 90s you would have a very hard time seeing a person of color there even IN major cities, so why people think that there could be a better representation in less friendly times at a time of much harder, costly and dangerous travel is what I would call ignorance, and trying to fit modern perspective on the time period, which never was a part of the culture of people who try to fit it in...

 

EDIT: look for random pictures of early 20th and late 19th century from the European Cities in Northern and Central Europe, and try to find people of color there...

Edited by Darkpriest
Posted

 

 

And I have serious problems with the notion that choosing a setting which makes it very unlikely or impossible to feature X is in some way a negative or inferior thing.

 

 

 

Yet nobody kicked up a stink when people exclaimed on the Pillars subforum that the existence of guns in their fantasy is a dealbreaker.

 

Why is being upset over having/not having guns in a fantasy game in any way a more valid preference than being upset over having/not having the option to freely choose your character's skin tone? I mean, both of them can be seen as silly on some level, yet only one of those complaints triggers a wave of harrassment in response.

 

 

Because fantasy is FANTASY setting, it is taking on some late renaissance advancements and puts them in the premise of a fantasy setting... also PoE is hardly a first fantasy setting with firearms... look at Warhammer setting and you will see even gyrocopters and steamtanks... what people were upset about is that they wanted a copy paste of Forgotten Realms setting, which is something entirely different. 

 

Personally I would prefer more of FR flavor myself, heck, probably even entirely a FR based game, but the setting they created in PoE is believable, and again, it is fantasy with magic and stuff...

 

KC:D is trying to be medieval RPG, not a fantasy RPG with medieval flavor...

Posted (edited)

Edit: to

Yet nobody kicked up a stink when people exclaimed on the Pillars subforum that the existence of guns in their fantasy is a dealbreaker.

 

Why is being upset over having/not having guns in a fantasy game in any way a more valid preference than being upset over having/not having the option to freely choose your character's skin tone? I mean, both of them can be seen as silly on some level, yet only one of those complaints triggers a wave of harrassment in response.

Because it isn't? No idea, I didn't follow that particular discussion (or almost any other of the beta discussions).

That complaint triggering a wave of harassment (going by what you said) doesn't really affect the historical argument, though.

Edited by Varana

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

Posted

"I remain unconvinced."

 

That is because you are a SJW and facts do not matter to a SJW.

  • Like 1

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

Posted (edited)

Let's not be abrupt, Volourn. That article by Mr Chmielars was by no means a conclusive view of the entirety of video-gaming, he was just noting his observations about this year's E3 compared to last year's one and the differences between how they were presented and subsequently reported on. He says so himself in the article.

 

I didn't mean it as a "Gotcha!" to aluminumtrioxide, just to show him that the way E3 was reported on this year made it seem that there was a vast change where before there was a dearth of female characters, but they were actually very similar.

Edited by GhoulishVisage

When in doubt, blame the elves.

 

I have always hated the word "censorship", I prefer seeing it as just removing content that isn't suitable or is considered offensive

 

Posted

It is a gotcha moment. It shows how the storyline being pushed was flatly false and delusional. The claim being made was 'more females than ever' was proven false by a simple comparison of last year. That's why SJWs can't be trusted. They don't deal in FACTs but FEELS.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

Posted

That was kind of the point of the original complaint, though. You could totally make a realistic medieval game set in Central Europe which features people of color. That they chose to focus on a specific locale and time period where people of color were not present is an artistic choice. Therefore "can't, because Historical Accuracy!" rings hollow as a defense.

 

There really are two separate issues regarding that.

 

Firstly, having someone other than a white bloke being the protagonist. That really cannot be done, because simple historical fact is that it would be extremely unusual, approaching unique, for that to happen. Having a woman or a berber/ arab/ tartar or even a jewish or gypsy character becomes a trivial choice if you cannot follow through on the implications of offering that choice. Realistically, any of those options would be remarked upon in the setting, and some would be regarded as being 'against god' and similar by near everyone you meet. So, it stops being the game they want to make and either becomes a game about potentially playing an arab or woman in Bohemia and dealing with the discrimination you'd receive, massively increasing the game's scope; or you have to ignore the historical context which is a stated aim of making the game and have the woman or berber play basically the same as that white dude does.

 

I have more sympathy for including ethnic minorities as 'npcs', but it still has to deal with the reality that medieval Europe was not an enlightened place nor in that sense ethnically diverse except in specific areas, and runs the risk of tokenism too. Going off to the Jewish Banker to borrow money is realistic, but many would not take kindly to the stereotype even if it is historically accurate; having Saracens or Moors wandering around would be rather unlikely given the religious mores and persistent religious warfare etc.

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