Does One-Handed Style apply if you are wearing a shield?

[Nobear]

Simple question. It says "while wielding a single one-handed melee weapon." A shield is not a weapon, but you never know how game mechanics work out in practice. So would it be viable for Eder to take this as well as Weapon and Shield Style and Confident Aim?

 

I'm assuming One-Handed Style and Confident Aim stack, as well as Zealous Focus and flails, so if the two Styles can be used together, you could get up to 85% graze-to-hit. Yes?

[Raven Darkholme]

Afaik one handed works with a shield. Not sure about stacking though.

[Luckmann]

Oddly enough, yes, it applies. It's been covered in a number of threads, whenever Styles come up, more or less. Strangely, this means that One-Weapon Style is more useful for Tanks than it is for Duelists.

 

It's been assumed to be a bug, because of the conceptual divide between the four available styles and the corresponding styles, but at this point, I'd expect it to be fixed if it was. On the other hand, they're finally starting to take a look at the Attributes, despite them being known to be lopsided and broken since before release, so you never know when they suddenly decide that this is a bug after all.

 

Tanks have a tendency to run out of good feats to take, and taking One-Handed Style should be more or less a given. Tanks graze a lot, so the Graze-to-Hit conversion is really useful.

 

Meanwhile, Duelists aren't going to be grazing much at all, so the talent is completely wasted on them. Extremely unintuitive.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

Meanwhile, Duelists aren't going to be grazing much at all, so the talent is completely wasted on them. Extremely unintuitive.

 

Wel-l-l... the added crits are welcome for duelists also, especially as one-handed weapons do less damage to start with (also DR etc.). I haven't done the numbers but I'm p. sure it's not easy to get your Acc so high you're critting all the time, even with the talent.

[Luckmann]

 

Meanwhile, Duelists aren't going to be grazing much at all, so the talent is completely wasted on them. Extremely unintuitive.

 

Wel-l-l... the added crits are welcome for duelists also, especially as one-handed weapons do less damage to start with (also DR etc.). I haven't done the numbers but I'm p. sure it's not easy to get your Acc so high you're critting all the time, even with the talent.

 

 

The added crits? One-Handed Style only converts Grazes into Hits. Grazes that have been converted into Hits cannot Crit, and are not subject to Hit-to-Crit conversions (afaik, unless something's changed at some point, which is possible). Also, in order for the Talent to do anything at all, you first have to Graze, and a duelist is going to be grazing markedly less than virtually anyone else.

 

That being said, alright, it's not completely wasted, I mean, it has an effect. It's just that there's a lot of potentially good talents for a Duelist (especially for a Deathlike, actually; you can really stack up those bonuses to low-health opponents and on crits).

 

I'd argue that One-Handed Style shouldn't even apply when shields are equipped, if only for conceptual reasons, but even if it does, it absolutely shouldn't be as useless as it is for actual duelists, to the point where it's infinitely more useful for a completely different style.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

Ah right, my bad. I remembered it wrong, I thought it was an ACC buff. Sorry.

[Luckmann]

Ah right, my bad. I remembered it wrong, I thought it was an ACC buff. Sorry.

 

Ah, yeah, you probably confused it with the +12 Accuracy you get for simply one-handing stuff, not the Style Talent.

 

The +12 Accuracy ranges from crazy good (early-game) to meh-ish (late-game). It should've been 8+(1*LVL). And it's the very thing that makes the One-Handed Weapon Style useless for duelists, since they'll just not get as many grazes as anyone else, while tanks with their penalty to Accuracy will have lots and lots more.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[View619]

Simple question. It says "while wielding a single one-handed melee weapon." A shield is not a weapon, but you never know how game mechanics work out in practice. So would it be viable for Eder to take this as well as Weapon and Shield Style and Confident Aim?

 

I'm assuming One-Handed Style and Confident Aim stack, as well as Zealous Focus and flails, so if the two Styles can be used together, you could get up to 85% graze-to-hit. Yes?

 

Yes, it stacks with Confident Aim and Flail bonuses. So, you can have up to 80% graze-to-hit conversion with a flail and shield style.

Edited June 26, 2015 by View619

[PrimeJunta]

Nah, I know about the one-hander ACC buff, I just remembered that it would give another buff on top of that rather than just convert graze to hit which really is dumb.

 

Since fighting one-handed is a significant handicap I don't see much problem in allowing talents like that to stack ACC to make up for it. It's not mechanically OP and as a concept it's kinda cool -- picture a Scaramouche type expertly jabbing a dragon in the eye with a rapier.

[Nobear]

Yes, it stacks with Confident Aim and Flail bonuses. So, you can have up to 80% graze-to-hit conversion with a flail and shield style.

 

It'd be 95% I believe, then. 30% (flail) + 20% (Confident Aim) + 30% (One-Handed Style) + 15% (Zealous Focus) = 95%. Not too shabby :D.

 

Thanks all for the confirmation!

Edited June 28, 2015 by Nobear

[Crucis]

 

Ah right, my bad. I remembered it wrong, I thought it was an ACC buff. Sorry.

 

Ah, yeah, you probably confused it with the +12 Accuracy you get for simply one-handing stuff, not the Style Talent.

 

The +12 Accuracy ranges from crazy good (early-game) to meh-ish (late-game). It should've been 8+(1*LVL). And it's the very thing that makes the One-Handed Weapon Style useless for duelists, since they'll just not get as many grazes as anyone else, while tanks with their penalty to Accuracy will have lots and lots more.

 

 

Or maybe the +12 Accuracy for 1-hand wielding should have been part of the 1H style in the first place.  It does seem to make the 1H style moot, if thinks of it as only for 1H wielders with no shield. 

 

And I have a hard time seeing a +12 bonus as weak at any part of the game, though I agree that early on, a +12 bonus is proportionally stronger than later in the game.  But the same is true for nearly any bonus, accuracy or deflection, etc.  And adding a graze to hit conversion on top of the +12 doesn't seem all that impressive.  If it had been a hit to graze conversion, it might have been more impressive.

 

Still, it does make one question whether it's right that the 1H weapon style should be allowed for shield users.  Or for that matter whether the +12 acc bonus should have been in the 1H style (assuming that it was limited to single weapon/no shield users).

[Luckmann]

Or maybe the +12 Accuracy for 1-hand wielding should have been part of the 1H style in the first place.  It does seem to make the 1H style moot, if thinks of it as only for 1H wielders with no shield. 

 

And I have a hard time seeing a +12 bonus as weak at any part of the game, though I agree that early on, a +12 bonus is proportionally stronger than later in the game.  But the same is true for nearly any bonus, accuracy or deflection, etc.  And adding a graze to hit conversion on top of the +12 doesn't seem all that impressive.  If it had been a hit to graze conversion, it might have been more impressive.

 

Still, it does make one question whether it's right that the 1H weapon style should be allowed for shield users.  Or for that matter whether the +12 acc bonus should have been in the 1H style (assuming that it was limited to single weapon/no shield users).

 

It's not that the +12 Accuracy is bad, it's actually quite good, and utterly crazy right in the beginning. It's that even with that, dualists are sub-par, and even though +12 is still good by the end of the game, it's not good enough. It doesn't adequately compensate for the trade-offs, especially since the One-Handed Style Talent is so very bad for actual duelists.

 

If you bake the +12 Accuracy into the One-Handed Style Talent, all you've done is make duelists utterly worthless in the early game, before they can pick the Talent up, something no other style suffers from. It's likely precisely why it's not baked into the Style Talent.

 

I think the bonus should be 8+(1*LVL) or 6+(1*LVL), so that it actually scales, rather than to have this huge ooomph in the beginning and then become increasingly meh-by-comparison as the games go on, that the One-Handed Style should be increased from 30% to 40% Graze-to-Hit, get a 20% Hit-to-Crit conversion, and a defensive 20% Hit-to-Graze conversion on incoming attacks. And if you have anything in your off-hand, it shouldn't apply at all.

 

Note that Grazes that have been converted into Hits cannot be converted again into Crits. It's important to remember when considering making something have both Graze-to-Hit and Hit-to-Crit.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Luckmann

[Crucis]

Luckmann, it doesn't really matter whether it's "good enough" or not.  There are MANY other bonuses that are fixed values.  There's nothing special about one handed wielding in this regard, nor should it get any special treatment either.

[Luckmann]

Luckmann, it doesn't really matter whether it's "good enough" or not.  There are MANY other bonuses that are fixed values.  There's nothing special about one handed wielding in this regard, nor should it get any special treatment either.

 

Well, I don't really consider it special treatment. Lots of things have fixed values, and lots of things shouldn't have fixed values. And a lot of things should. It really isn't stranger than the fact that we get +Accuracy on each level, and in this case, Duelists would get +1 more in order to keep up and have less of a downward curve, while the fixed value of +12 Accuracy gets reduced to +8 or +6.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sabotin]

The way attacks are resolved I think flat values are just fine. 100 acc vs 90 def is the same as 40 acc vs 30 def. The 1h talent could be something else though. I'd look into something defensive, to even out the talent selection. Maybe apply the style bonus as deflection against a target you are engaging.

[Nobear]

I think some combination of Luckman's and Sabotin's ideas might be good. I like Luckman's suggestion that the base bonus scale slightly with level. For the talent, make it not apply with anything in the offhand (like a shield) and change it to just hit-to-crit I'd say, plus some mild defensive boost that's not strong enough to make a dualist as tanky as a tank with shield. If you think of fencing as an example of trained dualist combat, it seems to be about cautious combat, involving footwork to ensure you take the right (accurate) strikes while trying to evade enemy attacks. In that light, a small defensive graze-to-miss boost seems appropriate. Just make sure it's not so strong that it encroaches on the defensive ability of using a shield.

 

Also, I believe that dual wielding and two handed should always have at least a marginal DPS advantage over the dualist approach, especially if the talent is changed to grant (in part) a mild defensive advantage. If you think about it, the greatest force possible will always be with your full body and both hands/arms. Also, while dual wielding may be seldom (if ever) used in real life situations, you have to consider that in a game, where you are sometimes able to stab someone in the back repeatedly while they are stunned or their back is otherwise exposed to you, you could theoretically stab a bit faster (though probably not twice as fast, and this game includes an appropriate penalty to reflect that) than you could with a single weapon.

[Nobear]

A side question, somewhat related to my original question, while this thread is still active here: Does accuracy and graze-to-hit directly affect the fighter's Knock Down ability? The whole idea I have behind giving Eder 95% graze-to-hit is mostly so that his Knock Down can be highly reliable and hardly ever graze. I figure, as suggested by the tooltip, that Knock Down gives two separate rolls: the damage component against Deflection, and the Prone component against Fortitude. I know I could easily test this much, but my question is whether grazes for the Prone affliction of Knock Down will be converted to hits at the same rate that the damage component is. If so, this is the chief reason I'd build Eder with flails and Bonus Knock Down: it'd probably be the most fast and reliable CC in the game. Abilities of other classes are useful for being AOE, but none could beat the speed and reliability of Knock Down like this.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Nobear

[Luckmann]

A side question, somewhat related to my original question, while this thread is still active here: Does accuracy and graze-to-hit directly affect the fighter's Knock Down ability? The whole idea I have behind giving Eder 95% graze-to-hit is mostly so that his Knock Down can be highly reliable and hardly ever graze. I figure, as suggested by the tooltip, that Knock Down gives two separate rolls: the damage component against Deflection, and the Prone component against Fortitude. I know I could easily test this much, but my question is whether grazes for the Prone affliction of Knock Down will be converted to hits at the same rate that the damage component is. If so, this is the chief reason I'd build Eder with flails and Bonus Knock Down: it'd probably be the most fast and reliable CC in the game. Abilities of other classes are useful for being AOE, but none could beat the speed and reliability of Knock Down like this.

 

I can't confirm this, but to my understanding of the rules and how Knockdown works, yes, this should all work, and you're correct in assuming that Knockdown basically does two melee attacks ("regular" attack/damage vs. Deflection, and the Knockdown effect vs. Fortitude), and bonuses to Accuracy as well as Graze-to-Hit conversions should apply to both.

 

I can't guarantee that it's true, but that's my understanding.

[player1]

If equipment slots were working as such that you can use same item in multiple slots, then single handed style of fighting would be more useful. Devs please fix this.

 

Currently, if you plan to have DPS setup with single weapon and defensive setup with weapon and shield, you can not do it using same powerful weapon, but need to have two weapons.

[Luckmann]

If equipment slots were working as such that you can use same item in multiple slots, then single handed style of fighting would be more useful. Devs please fix this.

 

Currently, if you plan to have DPS setup with single weapon and defensive setup with weapon and shield, you can not do it using same powerful weapon, but need to have two weapons.

 

Well personally, I really wish One-Handed Style wouldn't apply when shields are equipped, and I think that if you want to take full advantage of what you propose - a weapon and a shield when going on the defensive, and just the weapon when you're on the offensive, an obviously optimal set-up, then you should have to "pay" for that by taking both Talents.

 

Howeveeeeeer, that being said I completely agree with you. My Edér (I haven't played a tank myself) regularly have several different weapons, but only uses one shield, and there is no efficient way to change between weapons without changing the shield. This is something that seriously needs to be addressed. Weapon Sets should not count as Inventory Slots; you should simply assign weapons and shields in the inventory to the quick-slots.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Luckmann

[Messier-31]

So what does it mean when a character uses only one 1H weapon with no shield (off-hand empty)?

[player1]

+12 accuracy

[wanderon]

IIRC IWD2 allowed you to put the same weapon or shield in multiple slots to make additional options for using the same items in different configurations - sword A could be placed in one set alone - in another with a shield - in a third with an off hand weapon and a fourth might have a different main hand weapon with or without shield (or a ranged weapon) - this was (IMO) perhaps the best weapon set up option ever.

[Uni]

I agree that single weapon style should not work with shield and that it should do something significant like the other weapon styles. Id also rather see something else than the graze to hit which is pretty much least needed thing as already said. The suggested hit to graze conversion sounds good as it fits the duelist concept and helps compensate the lack of shield. Improved crit damage is also one option that would be useful and fitting and not used by other styles.

[Nobear]

I agree that single weapon style should not work with shield and that it should do something significant like the other weapon styles. Id also rather see something else than the graze to hit which is pretty much least needed thing as already said. The suggested hit to graze conversion sounds good as it fits the duelist concept and helps compensate the lack of shield. Improved crit damage is also one option that would be useful and fitting and not used by other styles.

 

Either crit multiplier or hit-to-crit would make sense for the offensive portion of the bonus.