MOB lure ****

[Gorbag]

 

 

On the other hand you have the argument that the AI is too stupid to realize that it's being lured and slaughtered one by one, and does nothing to prevent it. 

 

 

 

The problem, as explained before, is that at a certain point the script instructs the creature or everyone but one creature: "Now go back". So after you kill the only monster that chased you all the way, your per encounter abilities, talents and endurance points are restored. For this reason they should chase as a group to the end of the universe, and shouldn't desert the PC and his companions ever.

 

 

I see what you mean, but chasing the party to the end of the universe would also disable running away from a fight, and that's crucial for Trial of Iron.

 

 

Thank you for the laugh I needed one.  

 

 

What? You sad? It's really inconvenient to talk in typing that people can't see their faces and tones.

 

I don't know is the lure thing you mean is exactly the lure thing I mean.

Got surrounded on a ground or triggered a trap the first time if the player is not care enought to see the clue (or aware enough to avoid the danger). If the player can't still win in that bad situation, failed and retry to lure the mobs to fight in the player's spot is fine.

What I mean is to lure the mobs far away to make them return back, and the last one mob hasn't. So that the player's team can deal the mobs one by one.

If the player's team doesn't have the powerful ability, spell, or class to win, then the player can change the difficulty. Not doing this kid's cheating thing.

Right, I recall it now. Kids like to cheat in games to prove themselves. And they are stubborn that they can't admit they are less good in something.

 

Yes, this is what luring means. You lure the enemy to a spot of your choice and kill it there.

For the love of God, man, stop with the "cheating" thing and the ridiculous hyperboles/conclusions. The internet is dark and full of terrors, and you have stumbled upon one of the few places that won't immediately turn you into a mascot.

Please. Make. Sense. 

I tried my best to distill some arguments for you in order to pick something up.

[Valorian]

I see what you mean, but chasing the party to the end of the universe would also disable running away from a fight, and that's

What's crucial for a masochistic optional mode is irrelevant.

Yes, some people would cry that JES ruined their fun (again), but **** them.

[Nakia]

We do seem to have a language problem here.  I admire anyone who can communicate in a second language.  It certainly isn't easy.

 

As I see it a good general takes advantage of not only the terrain but the flaws of the enemy.  In PoE the player is the general and if they take advantage of flaws in the combat design that is their choice.  They are not cheating but simply using the mechanics as the devs have developed it.   PotD is supposed to be insanely hard so why shouldn't the player use any means available to win?

 

It is up to the devs to decide whether the system should be changed or not.  Players can make suggestions of course. 

 

As for enemies chasing you to the ends of the universe no I don't think they  should.  However luring is not fleeing.  You are not running away from the enemy your are luring them to a choke point.  My experience with PoE is the enemy gets to the choke point and one or two foes stand in the door or whatever and battle your melee fighters while the rest tromp around trying to get to the melee fighter.  How could this be improved?  I am not a programmer but is there a possibility that enemies could switch to range weapons?  Maybe the two fighting in the choke point should draw back in an attempt to draw you out.  Just some ideas.

 

I play games for fun, to relax from the cares, problems and seriousness of real life.  I come to forums like this one one to exchange experiences, to learn, to have friendly discussions.

[kryadan]

I find I have to use this tactic  in several fights. It usually won't work on internal locations anyways, depending on how much hallway space and rooms you have available to go through. Outside you can use it until your heart is content though =)

[MunoValente]

The AI obviously should be better if possible.  Luring tactics are fine, but the enemies should be better equipped to handle them, luring one guy off when his buddies are clearly within shouting distance/line of sight should be something the game tries to avoid whenever possible.

[player1]

The lure mechanic is so "90ties".

 

And it should have stayed in 90ties. Just because game is spiritual successor to old game does not excuse of (non)intentionally introducing old flaws back to the genre.

[abaris]

The AI obviously should be better if possible.  Luring tactics are fine, but the enemies should be better equipped to handle them, luring one guy off when his buddies are clearly within shouting distance/line of sight should be something the game tries to avoid whenever possible.

 

You know, I've had maybe one or two instances where one guy was lured without his whole crew following. As Nakia observed, it even happens occasionally that further away enemies are alerted too and come for you from behind your back. That doesn't mean the AI doesn't have plenty of room for improvement. The wayfinding, friend and foe, is abysmal in places. They use spells, ill suited for the situation at hand and the list could be continued.

[Clicks]

Hmm this is interesting. For me, enemies are rarely lured away alone - most of the time they have the support of their mob stroll in from fog of war. Maybe I'm just terrible at luring?

[ruzen]

I don't know why some players would do this **** and make stage design or mob location set no sense. They just lure the mobs far from their locations to make the mobs go back exclusive one and kill them one by one. Can't developers just fix the mobs to go back with faster move speed or high health regeneration. Or just simply game crash.

 Because It is about beating the game. Trying every "dirty" tactics wont kill the immersion Its the combat do what you have to survive! Infact faking every fight to be "honorable" is kinda borring. Ruleset is allready very firm and with addition of "right-click-AI" Its very linear fight system. True balance can only be achieved with smart AI, using situational tactics. Because Its a singleplayer game, the only balance is Man vs AI scale. If It was an online game rules should be more important to balance. Also lets not forget one big thing, games are for fun and beating AI is fun. Let me remind again; AI and Its capibilities is the key here.

[manageri]

Omg. Yeah let's not fix glaring holes in AI/mechanics because some ****ty players depend on them. Yeah, that's reasonable.

 

And I'm so ****ing tired of the ITS A SNIGLE PLAYUR GEIM argument. Well guess what, SP does not mean YOU ARE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD. I mean if you can't see why that's a retarded argument I just can't even believe you have the intellect to use a keyboard.

 

Quite ****ing obviously it's absurd that a group of dudes would not ****ing notice when everyone else like 10 meters away starts shooting their guns at something. But let's just forget the realism angle, and get to real point, which is that if the encounter is designed to have 10 enemies then QFO you BREAK THE GAME if you manage to pull less. If you want less difficult fights then use the goddamn difficulty slider. As for "dont do it hurr durr", again QFO I cannot magically will the entire group to aggro when the first of them see me, so if I want to make sure they all do aggro, I would literally have to stealth or run PAST THEIR FRONT LINE to make sure all the enemies are awake. Is that as simple as "just don't do it hurr". No.

 

If you want an option to cheat, then by all means, I support your freedom to have as many lame ass cheater options in the difficulty screen, including individual retard aggro AI, as long as I don't have to deal with this garbage.

[Clicks]

Your point could have been so much better without the hostility and insults.

[ruzen]

@manageri 

Why are you fixing your thought process only "We vs Them, They wants to not fix the exploits,bla bla"

From what I understand reading the topic, most people wants a smarter AI at first place? Perhaps Its just people doesnt want a workaround for this "problem" like; giving them hp regen or fast move spead or other bizarre "buffs".

Just make a good simulation the rest will come around later on. I mean why shouldnt AI uses the same tactics when Its low in numbers? or when our party gathered close why not AI uses a powerfull AoE spell or somethin? There can be lots of ideas to play with but simulation side is very shallow for todays gaming specs. Look we are even discussing the oldest trick in the world of gaming and It works on AI.

On a side note I'm not agreeing your "SP does not mean YOU ARE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD" argument?! based on a simple fact that when you are playing a single player game, you are the only "person" in that world.

Edited June 3, 2015 by ruzen

[abaris]

On a side note I'm not agreeing your "SP does not mean YOU ARE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD" argument?! based on a simple fact that when you are playing a single player game, you are the only "person" in that world.

 

In your game, you are the only person in the world. That means, you can play as you like with every exploit you like. Or you can leave them out, if you don't like them. Your decision. And that's the crucial point. Asking for the developers to take something out, based on personal opinion, is asking to ruin the game for others, who don't feel that way. You, the player can take it or leave it. But if a feature isn't there to begin with, the player can't add it.

 

As has been said, a better AI is something to ask for. I for example, am deeply bothered by justicars just continuing on their merry way, whilst walking through the midst of a major fight in the streets of Defiance Bay. That's really something killing immersion and D:OS proved that it can be done differently.

[Nakia]

George S. Patton said:

 

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.

 

If the combat system, the AI is flawed or poorly designed it is up to the developers to fix it.  The individual player works within the rule set of the game.  We can courteously ask for changes or make suggestions and it is also possible to be courteous to other players and posters.  

 

Could someone explain to me what is wrong with this scenario?

 

A player playing PotD is faced with a room full of twenty or more enemies.  He has a party of six and the ability to lure the enemies to a choke point.  He wins the battle using the strategy provided in the game.

 

If he had simply walked into the room he would have been quickly surrounded by the foe and his party wiped out.  Why should he be forced to stop playing on PotD so he can reset his difficulty level to normal or easy?  What he is doing is making the best possible use of the strategy provided by the developers.  He is not cheating and in my opinion is doing what he should be doing, winning. 

[Valorian]

For those who still don't understand the issue that's being discussed here, I'll simplify it:
 
Problem:
 

... at a certain point the script instructs the creature or everyone except one or two creatures from an enemy group: "Now go back". So after you kill the only monster that chased you all the way, your per encounter abilities, talents and endurance points are restored.

 
 
Not a problem:
 

... enemy gets to the choke point and one or two foes stand in the door or whatever and battle your melee fighters while the rest tromp around trying to get to the melee fighter.

 

 

 

Also, AI doesn't distinguish fleeing and luring.

[manageri]

@manageri 

Why are you fixing your thought process only "We vs Them, They wants to not fix the exploits,bla bla"

From what I understand reading the topic, most people wants a smarter AI at first place?

 

And you think it's reasonable a "smart" AI could miss the battle going on 10-20 meters away? Ever?

 

 

On a side note I'm not agreeing your "SP does not mean YOU ARE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD" argument?! based on a simple fact that when you are playing a single player game, you are the only "person" in that world.

 

In your game, you are the only person in the world.

 

 

Oh wow, how irrelevant, when design decisions affect every player's game, as in all "worlds". Does this nauseating level of blatant sophistry not make you, I dunno, punch yourself or something?

 

That means, you can play as you like with every exploit you like. Or you can leave them out, if you don't like them. Your decision. And that's the crucial point.

 

 

Yes, the crucial point, as I explained, is that there is no button anywhere that lets me enable smart AI that will not randomly leave loose mobs scratching their ass in the back of the room while I aggro their buddies.

 

 

Asking for the developers to take something out, based on personal opinion, is asking to ruin the game for others, who don't feel that way.

 

 

Yeah, duh, every single design decision they make will be liked by some and hated by others. The CRUCIAL POINT again is that there is no choise for us to enable proper group AI for the enemy so this decision has been made in a way that, in your words, "ruins the game for (us) others".

 

 

You, the player can take it or leave it. But if a feature isn't there to begin with, the player can't add it.

 

 

How do you write this stuff and not see the irony?

[ruzen]

 

@manageri 

Why are you fixing your thought process only "We vs Them, They wants to not fix the exploits,bla bla"

From what I understand reading the topic, most people wants a smarter AI at first place?

 

And you think it's reasonable a "smart" AI could miss the battle going on 10-20 meters away? Ever?

 

 

On a side note I'm not agreeing your "SP does not mean YOU ARE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD" argument?! based on a simple fact that when you are playing a single player game, you are the only "person" in that world.

 

In your game, you are the only person in the world.

 

 

Oh wow, how irrelevant, when design decisions affect every player's game, as in all "worlds". Does this nauseating level of blatant sophistry not make you, I dunno, punch yourself or something?

 

That means, you can play as you like with every exploit you like. Or you can leave them out, if you don't like them. Your decision. And that's the crucial point.

 

 

Yes, the crucial point, as I explained, is that there is no button anywhere that lets me enable smart AI that will not randomly leave loose mobs scratching their ass in the back of the room while I aggro their buddies.

 

 

Asking for the developers to take something out, based on personal opinion, is asking to ruin the game for others, who don't feel that way.

 

 

Yeah, duh, every single design decision they make will be liked by some and hated by others. The CRUCIAL POINT again is that there is no choise for us to enable proper group AI for the enemy so this decision has been made in a way that, in your words, "ruins the game for (us) others".

 

 

You, the player can take it or leave it. But if a feature isn't there to begin with, the player can't add it.

 

 

How do you write this stuff and not see the irony?

 

I think you are having a bad day   but I'm sorry I cant continue to discuss with you because I can only understand so little from what you are sayn.

[kryadan]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if mob lure bothers you then just run into the pack of mobs and swing away. Never disengage and have fun on Solo runs. Stop complaining about something you don't want to use anyways...

[Nakia]

For those who still don't understand the issue that's being discussed here, I'll simplify it:

 

Problem:

 

... at a certain point the script instructs the creature or everyone except one or two creatures from an enemy group: "Now go back". So after you kill the only monster that chased you all the way, your per encounter abilities, talents and endurance points are restored.

 

 

Not a problem:

 

... enemy gets to the choke point and one or two foes stand in the door or whatever and battle your melee fighters while the rest tromp around trying to get to the melee fighter.

 

 

 

Also, AI doesn't distinguish fleeing and luring.

Higlite mine.  If the AI could distinguish between fleeing and luring then it should also be smart enough to stop the enemy from responding to a lure tactic.  At least the enemy should proceed with caution.  How smart should the enemy AI be?  If it is so smart that a player on hard or PotD cannot win won't people get frustrated and complain about that?  Would they be justified?  I think so.  A game should be fun for as many people as possible.  If you have fun playing on easy that is what you should do.  If you want a challenge and want to play PotD, solo or Iron Man you should be able to do that.  I do not think any player should be made to feel they need to apologize for the way they play their game.  

[Valorian]

 If the AI could distinguish between fleeing and luring 

 

 

That's beyond the realm of possibility for PoE. No need to worry yourself about it.

[player1]

Lures as such are AI exploit. AI should be improved to prevent exploits. Also encounters should be designed in such way to make it more difficult to do the exploits, and not to factor exploit awereness of the player as part of difficulty curve.

 

Ideally, exploit should not exist, not to kill the fun for a few gamers who like luring, but to make better game overall.

 

 

As for the whole, "tank on chokepoint" strategy, it is result of flawed system unfortunatelly used in most RPG systems.

 

Ideally, firing on enemy that is engaged in melee with friendly party should be a risk for both enagaged characters and discouraged.

 

Similary, most of the direct fire attacks (like fireball or arrows) should not work, if there is target between them and destination. Instead, only lobbing attacks should be possible in that case (like grenade, or missile attacks that fires in air and then falls on targets).

 

 

If game layer was upgraded to be similar to that, then of course chokepoint strategy would be much less overeffective then it is now, when backend characters are allowed to use full range of ranged DPS options without any penalty.

Edited June 3, 2015 by player1