Everything's Great - An anti-whinge Part 1

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay but how has the anti-terrorism laws in Oz effected you personally?

Should I only care about the curbing of civil liberties once they have directly effected me?

Should I cease caring about the impact of racism and sexism too?

 

 

Come on you are too clever to make silly comparisons 

 

Being opposed to bigotry is not the same thing as your government passing laws to protect its citizens from the threat of attack?

 

My government passing laws to trample natural rights people is worse than bigotry in many ways.

 

 

Yes it can be but its not like you live in Russia where there is real pressure on the free press ?

 

The problems of another state does not negate the problems with my own. The fact that I or anyone else in the US can be spied on without consent concerns me greatly, as it should anyone who favors freedom.

 

 

Its interesting how that type of thing doesn't bother me..but I do sell and implement eDiscovery software so it would strange if that type of thing did bother me

 

Your distaste for liberty and love for the state is well known Bruce.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay but how has the anti-terrorism laws in Oz effected you personally?

Should I only care about the curbing of civil liberties once they have directly effected me?

Should I cease caring about the impact of racism and sexism too?

 

 

Come on you are too clever to make silly comparisons 

 

Being opposed to bigotry is not the same thing as your government passing laws to protect its citizens from the threat of attack?

 

My government passing laws to trample natural rights people is worse than bigotry in many ways.

 

 

Yes it can be but its not like you live in Russia where there is real pressure on the free press ?

 

The problems of another state does not negate the problems with my own. The fact that I or anyone else in the US can be spied on without consent concerns me greatly, as it should anyone who favors freedom.

 

 

Its interesting how that type of thing doesn't bother me..but I do sell and implement eDiscovery software so it would strange if that type of thing did bother me

 

Your distaste for liberty and love for the state is well known Bruce.

 

 

No your view is influenced by perceived GG bias 

 

I believe in free speech but that doesn't mean that your government shouldn't have the ability to monitor electronic communication if required

 

Its naive to think that the Internet in your country  shouldn't be able to be monitored ...you do realize the USA is at war with Islamic extremists that do use the Internet for communication and for cyber-warfare?

 

If the war on terror was over then the likes of Prism wouldn't be necessary. Its not designed to police USA citizens who mean no harm to your country 

[Hiro Protagonist]

No I think he means modern society is beset by these types of things so he doesn't think its as great as I do 

 

You think? So you're guessing.

 

Why not let Barothmuk speak for himself.

[Barothmuk]

Why not let Barothmuk speak for himself.

Bruce said everything is great, I posted a derisive image, he asked what I disliked about the modern age, I answered.

 

Not sure why it was my post that triggered this little melt-down.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

No your view is influenced by perceived GG bias

No, my disdain for the state and limits on my rights influences my view.

 

I believe in free speech but that doesn't mean that your government shouldn't have the ability to monitor electronic communication if required

The government monitoring communication is an infringement on natural rights.

 

Its naive to think that the Internet in your country  shouldn't be able to be monitored ...you do realize the USA is at war with Islamic extremists that do use the Internet for communication and for cyber-warfare?

The usage of the internet by some to commit cyber-warfare does not excuse the invasion of privacy by the state.

 

If the war on terror was over then the likes of Prism wouldn't be necessary. Its not designed to police USA citizens who mean no harm to your country

The war on terror is a failure. Spying on citizens under the guise of protecting them is the hallmark of a police state.

[BruceVC]

 

No your view is influenced by perceived GG bias

No, my disdain for the state and limits on my rights influences my view.

 

I believe in free speech but that doesn't mean that your government shouldn't have the ability to monitor electronic communication if required

The government monitoring communication is an infringement on natural rights.

 

Its naive to think that the Internet in your country  shouldn't be able to be monitored ...you do realize the USA is at war with Islamic extremists that do use the Internet for communication and for cyber-warfare?

The usage of the internet by some to commit cyber-warfare does not excuse the invasion of privacy by the state.

 

If the war on terror was over then the likes of Prism wouldn't be necessary. Its not designed to police USA citizens who mean no harm to your country

The war on terror is a failure. Spying on citizens under the guise of protecting them is the hallmark of a police state.

 

 

But you are misunderstanding how this monitoring of data is used

 

The NSA doesn't care about your personal communication unless you are on there radar. I doubt they monitor all the data of every single citizen....that would be almost impossible. They are selective about who they target. So don't worry about them spying on you

 

Funny you say the war on terror is a failure considering the fact its still ongoing and the US authorities have done an excellent job at preventing another 9/11

 

Its very hard to stop lone wolfs like the Boston marathon  bombers but lets give them some credit 

Edited May 25, 2015 by BruceVC

[Barothmuk]

Because the other thread reminded me of the Simpsons

 

[BruceVC]

Because the other thread reminded me of the Simpsons

 

 that made me laugh

[Hiro Protagonist]

said everything is great, I posted a derisive image, he asked what I disliked about the modern age, I answered.

 

Not sure why it was my post that triggered this little melt-down.

 

No melt down on my part. I was asking questions to you which you still haven't answered.  

[Meshugger]

In order to keep the spirit of this thread on and going, i'll try to answer accordingly:

 

 

So do tell, what are you unhappy about in our modern age?

- Wealth inequality

- Doesn't matter as long as the base needs are already met and nothing stops you from self-realizing yourself. Cheer up!
- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- That's why we are already planning to mine asteroids and establishing permanent bases on the moon. Cheer up!
- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!
- Racism

- Don't hang around racist people. Cheer up!
- Sexism

- Don't hang around sexist people. Cheer up!
- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

- Nothing has happened yet. Cheer up!

Edited May 25, 2015 by Meshugger

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

But you are misunderstanding how this monitoring of data is used

 

The NSA doesn't care about your personal communication unless you are on there radar. I doubt they monitor all the data of every single citizen....that would be almost impossible. They are selective about who they target. So don't worry about them spying on you

"We won't use this data we've collected and stored on you without your consent to do anything wrong, we promise!"

 

Funny you say the war on terror is a failure considering the fact its still ongoing and the US authorities have done an excellent job at preventing another 9/11

Are you seriously arguing that because terrorists so inept that a bomb they sowed into a man's underwear failed to detonate after he successfully boarded a plane haven't been able to pull off a 9/11 the NSA(and other authorities) are doing an excellent job?

 

Its very hard to stop lone wolfs like the Boston marathon  bombers but lets give them some credit

So spying on citizens does "an excellent job" but they still aren't going to be able to stop a couple of guys who made bombs in the garage? I'd hardly consider that a justification for invasion of privacy and would instead consider it proof that the war on terror failed badly.

[Barothmuk]

 

In order to keep the spirit of this thread on and going, i'll try to answer accordingly:

 

 

So do tell, what are you unhappy about in our modern age?

- Wealth inequality

- Doesn't matter as long as the base needs are already met and nothing stops you from self-realizing yourself. Cheer up!

- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- That's why we are already planning to mine asteroids and establishing permanent bases on the moon. Cheer up!

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

- Racism

- Don't hang around racist people. Cheer up!

- Sexism

- Don't hang around sexist people. Cheer up!

- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

- Nothing has happened yet. Cheer up!

 

You forgot to add

 

 (◕‿◕✿).

[Meshugger]

 

 

In order to keep the spirit of this thread on and going, i'll try to answer accordingly:

 

 

So do tell, what are you unhappy about in our modern age?

- Wealth inequality

- Doesn't matter as long as the base needs are already met and nothing stops you from self-realizing yourself. Cheer up!

- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- That's why we are already planning to mine asteroids and establishing permanent bases on the moon. Cheer up!

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

- Racism

- Don't hang around racist people. Cheer up!

- Sexism

- Don't hang around sexist people. Cheer up!

- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

- Nothing has happened yet. Cheer up!

 

You forgot to add

 

 (◕‿◕✿).

 

 

Dawww, that thing is simply too darn cute.

[Hurlshort]

Meshugger is a winner.  

 

I do think that people lack proper historical context too often.  And honestly, if you want to get the Patriot act and all this NSA stuff to change, start a movement.  We live in a democracy, you can change stuff by raising awareness and putting societal pressure on the government.  That's why gay people are getting married.

 

Always remember that in the US:

90 years ago women could not vote.

70 years ago we stuck a bunch of American citizens in prison camps for being of Japanese descent.

50 years ago we segregated our schools.

40 years ago we still forced young men into the military.

30 years ago our economy was actually worse.

20 years ago we had a don't ask don't tell policy in the military.

10 years ago Osama was still playing video games in his crib.

 

Ok so I ran out of steam at the end there.  But yeah.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

In order to keep the derailment going, I'll answer accordingly:

 

- Wealth Inequality

- Doesn't matter as long as the base needs are already met and nothing stops you from self-realizing yourself. Cheer up!

But what if base needs can't be met concurrently with self-realization? If most of your time goes to work to generate funds to pay for base needs, can you achieve self-realization?

 

- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- That's why we are already planning to mine asteroids and establishing permanent bases on the moon. Cheer up!

That doesn't mean those plans will work.

 

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, with real wealth for the poorest declining.

 

- Racism

- Don't hang around racist people. Cheer up!

- Sexism

- Don't hang around sexist people. Cheer up!

As long as they don't **** on my rights, those ****s can do whatever they want.

 

- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

- Nothing has happened yet. Cheer up!

That's because It hasn't even begun. It's too late. We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine...and the machine is bleeding to death.

 

Enjoy the negativity darling.

[BruceVC]

 

But you are misunderstanding how this monitoring of data is used

 

The NSA doesn't care about your personal communication unless you are on there radar. I doubt they monitor all the data of every single citizen....that would be almost impossible. They are selective about who they target. So don't worry about them spying on you

"We won't use this data we've collected and stored on you without your consent to do anything wrong, we promise!"

 

Funny you say the war on terror is a failure considering the fact its still ongoing and the US authorities have done an excellent job at preventing another 9/11

Are you seriously arguing that because terrorists so inept that a bomb they sowed into a man's underwear failed to detonate after he successfully boarded a plane haven't been able to pull off a 9/11 the NSA(and other authorities) are doing an excellent job?

 

Its very hard to stop lone wolfs like the Boston marathon  bombers but lets give them some credit

So spying on citizens does "an excellent job" but they still aren't going to be able to stop a couple of guys who made bombs in the garage? I'd hardly consider that a justification for invasion of privacy and would instead consider it proof that the war on terror failed badly.

 

There have been many successful prevention's of terrorist attacks since 9/11, you just don't hear about all of them. So don't think that all the CIA and NSA initiatives are about that one incident. Its much more complex and effective than that

 

Also remember that this war against  terrorism is also fought on the Internet. So whether you like it or not all countries involved in this war have to implement measures that allow them to monitor the flow of  electronic data. This is not an attack on the civil rights of citizens but its just the reality of the interconnected world we live in and how extremist groups use the Internet to plan and formulate strategies. You could argue that a system like Prism is going too far and I understand that but I would argue " can a government ever go too when trying to keep its citizens safe " 

 

So you really need to see the reasonable reasons for this increased monitoring...it makes sense under the circumstances 

[Namutree]

 

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, with real wealth for the poorest declining.

Wealth for the poor is not declining; it's improving. While wages have stagnated, the cost of living and of luxuries have been lowering. 

 

Just about everyone is getting wealthier; just some are getting wealthier much faster than others.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Namutree

[Walsingham]

 

So do tell, what are you unhappy about in our modern age?

- Wealth inequality

- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- Poverty

- Racism

- Sexism

- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

 

 

For the Love of God and all the little pixies... wealth inequality is not a bad thing. Poverty is a bad thing. Starving is a bad thing. Having no prospect of ever having a job is a bad thing.

 

I'd be depressed about this particular meme, but it died out in the eighties. Mainly BECAUSE WE COULD DIRECTLY LOOK AT COMMUNISM AND SEE IT WAS BULLS***. It can die out again.

[BruceVC]

 

 

So do tell, what are you unhappy about in our modern age?

- Wealth inequality

- Unsustainable resource exploitation

- Poverty

- Racism

- Sexism

- The continued erosion of our civil liberties

 

 

For the Love of God and all the little pixies... wealth inequality is not a bad thing. Poverty is a bad thing. Starving is a bad thing. Having no prospect of ever having a job is a bad thing.

 

I'd be depressed about this particular meme, but it died out in the eighties. Mainly BECAUSE WE COULD DIRECTLY LOOK AT COMMUNISM AND SEE IT WAS BULLS***. It can die out again.

 

 

Well said my English friend, you're a military man. You know the way the world works, I assume you can understand why various governments have increased data monitoring of there citizens?

 

You right of course about the whole redundant Communism concept ...yet it seems to resurface in different places and with different motives. In my own country there is a  f***g political party called the EFF that seriously advocates mass nationalization of all banks and mines, taking from the whites  and " the people owning the land" ...and they received 1 million votes....so this interest in old school socialism\communism is real and cannot be dismissed 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

There have been many successful prevention's of terrorist attacks since 9/11, you just don't hear about all of them. So don't think that all the CIA and NSA initiatives are about that one incident. Its much more complex and effective than that

"We can't tell you what we've been doing and won't show you, but trust us it's all ok."

 

Also remember that this war against  terrorism is also fought on the Internet. So whether you like it or not all countries involved in this war have to implement measures that allow them to monitor the flow of  electronic data. This is not an attack on the civil rights of citizens but its just the reality of the interconnected world we live in and how extremist groups use the Internet to plan and formulate strategies. You could argue that a system like Prism is going too far and I understand that but I would argue " can a government ever go too when trying to keep its citizens safe "

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't care how you try to dress up invasion of privacy, it's still a violation of rights and morally wrong.

 

So you really need to see the reasonable reasons for this increased monitoring...it makes sense under the circumstances

No it doesn't. 1984 wasn't an instruction manual Bruce.

 

 

 

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, with real wealth for the poorest declining.

 

Wealth for the poor is not declining; it's improving. While wages have stagnated, the cost of living and of luxuries have been lowering. 

 

Just about everyone is getting wealthier; just some are getting wealthier much faster than others.

 

Huh? Most data I've seen seems to contradict that. Especially considering that real prices of gas have ballooned to ridiculous amounts, taking a much larger chunk of spending than previously. Granted Videogames and streaming have gone down in price, but printed works(especially comics, but no one pays for that) and cable seem to have risen faster than inflation.

 

Only thing a quick search could turn up: http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf

 

If you have some data I'd like to see it.

[BruceVC]

 

There have been many successful prevention's of terrorist attacks since 9/11, you just don't hear about all of them. So don't think that all the CIA and NSA initiatives are about that one incident. Its much more complex and effective than that

"We can't tell you what we've been doing and won't show you, but trust us it's all ok."

 

Also remember that this war against  terrorism is also fought on the Internet. So whether you like it or not all countries involved in this war have to implement measures that allow them to monitor the flow of  electronic data. This is not an attack on the civil rights of citizens but its just the reality of the interconnected world we live in and how extremist groups use the Internet to plan and formulate strategies. You could argue that a system like Prism is going too far and I understand that but I would argue " can a government ever go too when trying to keep its citizens safe "

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't care how you try to dress up invasion of privacy, it's still a violation of rights and morally wrong.

 

So you really need to see the reasonable reasons for this increased monitoring...it makes sense under the circumstances

No it doesn't. 1984 wasn't an instruction manual Bruce.

 

 

 

- Poverty

- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, with real wealth for the poorest declining.

 

Wealth for the poor is not declining; it's improving. While wages have stagnated, the cost of living and of luxuries have been lowering. 

 

Just about everyone is getting wealthier; just some are getting wealthier much faster than others.

 

Huh? Most data I've seen seems to contradict that. Especially considering that real prices of gas have ballooned to ridiculous amounts, taking a much larger chunk of spending than previously. Granted Videogames and streaming have gone down in price, but printed works(especially comics, but no one pays for that) and cable seem to have risen faster than inflation.

 

Only thing a quick search could turn up: http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf

 

If you have some data I'd like to see it.

 

 

KP I'm clearly not explaining my point properly because you don't seem to get it

 

So firstly yes, there are some things you just need to trust us on

 

But this is not a pig, this is an adoption of a strategy. The same methodology that is used to track the communication of extremists can also theoretically be used to spy on people ...but that is not its intention. So you are right about its potential use but wrong around the practical use of it. Big difference 

[Blarghagh]

You know what makes me happy?

 

Red pandas.

 

[Meshugger]

Man, KP was serious when he wanted to crash this thread with no survivors (Red Pandas are the best though).

[BruceVC]

Man, KP was serious when he wanted to crash this thread with no survivors (Red Pandas are the best though).

 

I don't think we are derailing the thread, we are merely discussing an unusual element of it 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Man, KP was serious when he wanted to crash this thread with no survivors (Red Pandas are the best though).

I'm not a hothead.

 

 

 

 

 

There have been many successful prevention's of terrorist attacks since 9/11, you just don't hear about all of them. So don't think that all the CIA and NSA initiatives are about that one incident. Its much more complex and effective than that

 

"We can't tell you what we've been doing and won't show you, but trust us it's all ok."

 

Also remember that this war against  terrorism is also fought on the Internet. So whether you like it or not all countries involved in this war have to implement measures that allow them to monitor the flow of  electronic data. This is not an attack on the civil rights of citizens but its just the reality of the interconnected world we live in and how extremist groups use the Internet to plan and formulate strategies. You could argue that a system like Prism is going too far and I understand that but I would argue " can a government ever go too when trying to keep its citizens safe "

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't care how you try to dress up invasion of privacy, it's still a violation of rights and morally wrong.

 

So you really need to see the reasonable reasons for this increased monitoring...it makes sense under the circumstances

 

No it doesn't. 1984 wasn't an instruction manual Bruce.

 

 

 

- Poverty- We are richer than we ever have been. Cheer up!

 

Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, with real wealth for the poorest declining.

Wealth for the poor is not declining; it's improving. While wages have stagnated, the cost of living and of luxuries have been lowering. 

 

Just about everyone is getting wealthier; just some are getting wealthier much faster than others.

Huh? Most data I've seen seems to contradict that. Especially considering that real prices of gas have ballooned to ridiculous amounts, taking a much larger chunk of spending than previously. Granted Videogames and streaming have gone down in price, but printed works(especially comics, but no one pays for that) and cable seem to have risen faster than inflation.

Only thing a quick search could turn up: http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf

If you have some data I'd like to see it.

 

KP I'm clearly not explaining my point properly because you don't seem to get it

 

So firstly yes, there are some things you just need to trust us on

 

But this is not a pig, this is an adoption of a strategy. The same methodology that is used to track the communication of extremists can also theoretically be used to spy on people ...but that is not its intention. So you are right about its potential use but wrong around the practical use of it. Big difference

You're explaining your point fine Bruce, your point is just wrong.