Journalism and Bias in the Gaming Industry

[Meshugger]

 

You know what though? More diversity in gaming would be awesome. I defended The Witcher and Kingdom Come because of their context as slavic mythology and truelife medieval setting respectively, but I sure as hell want to see more diversity in games that don't have such a context.

 

But then I look at that article and I see a tweet like "we can play 800 diff pokémon but one diverse trainer is too much to ask" and I realize that these people will just make **** up. This is what my toon looked like when I was playing through Pokémon Y:

 

 

Then there's the female variant:

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if there'd be this much internet backdraft about it if the "progressive" could just stop lying through their teeth for one second.

 

I'm eagerly awaiting Expeditions: Vikings simply because of the chances for diversity, hopefully we can travel to Byzantium to serve as Varangians in the Guard, and see what a melting pot of cultures and creeds walk the legendary streets. Diversity in such a crossroad of the world, at the centre of trading routes and easily accessible by sea (the highways of the ancient world) is warranted and internally consistent. I look forward to seeing the interactions and clashes that occur in such a locale.

 

 

We need more games about Byzantium. Here we have 1000-year old empire that almost no mentions except in bystanding, even among historians.

[Meshugger]

"Slavics are actually Anglo-Saxons." by Alex Lifschitz

 

These people... they really don't know anything and are weirdly proud of it.

 

Here's MOAR: https://archive.is/6hykt

 

 

 

Firstly, Polish/Slavic mythology isn’t really a thing. You can’t talk about it in the same way as you talk about Norse mythology or ancient Greek or even Egyptian mythology. There is no concrete body of mythological lore you can print in a book, or use as a game setting.

 

 

 

Yes, some of the names of the monsters in the game are indeed based on Slavic, and more specifically Polish folklore.

 

Hilariously dumb.

 

...and look who is endorsing it:

 

 

Not so long ago it was about white male gamers hating women. Now it is just white men.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Meshugger

[Undecaf]

Stupidity breeds stupidity.

[Fighter]

This is getting more ridiculous by the minute.

 

Honestly there doesn't need to be an explanation. No one should have to make historical/cultural justifications. Yes diversity is nice. Yes it would be great to see cultures and peoples that we are less used to. But no specific individual group of people has any responsibility to be making that and they do nothing wrong by doing what they feel like doing. They are a bunch of creators not a public service provider. There is no problem and nothing here is "problematic".

 

Here is a bunch of polish guys making a polish story. It is the way it is and only means that bunch of polish people like a polish story made with characters who look like the polish. They don't owe you a ****ing explanation and no *****wit hipster writers should be imposing any kind of guilt and insults on them. Because there is no guilt to be had.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Fighter

[Ganrich]

Interesting article/blog on the witcher situation.

 

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439

[Ineth]

We need more games about Byzantium. Here we have 1000-year old empire that almost no mentions except in bystanding, even among historians.

 

It was represented in AOE2.

 

I guess other games group them together with the Western Roman Empire as "Romans".

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

While that is true, as you have pointed out, it's a process with multiple steps, where, with sufficient awareness of your own biases, you can catch yourself and mitigate the effect on your behavior.

 

Or, instead of sober self-awareness and level-headed self-correction, you could just:

1. Join a political ideology that tells you what (and how bad) your biases are simply based on your gender and race.
2. Listen & Believe.
3. Frantically over-correct your behaviours sans common sense, in order to gain status with the other believers and feel good about how you're "one of the good ones".
4. End up with new biases and intolerant behaviors, that are several orders of magnitude more severe than any you might have had to begin with.

 

And who gets to define where's the line between "sober self-awareness and level-headed self-correction" and "frantic over-correction"? You? How convenient.

 

 

It is that it makes it impossible for anyone else to be racist against white men since they are according to the same theory in position of power.

 

 

I swear, you people are ****ing allergic to nuance.

 

Yes, it does make it impossible for structural racism to exist against white men on a society-wide scale (in the West, at least). It never implies that individual instances of racism against whites can't exist.

 

 

Read the Moby ****, the Bible, or whatever the same way and you will find the same result, which is it that it will be different than the overall message. For that, you have to read between the lines.

 

The author used the Witcher 3 as an example for a greater overreaching agenda that race in games need to be more diverse and it is quite sinister (maybe i am giving the guy too much credit here) that he chose this game of all games as a platform to start from. Basically, it is subversion/deconstruction of what they percieve as the dominant culture and games are no different.

 

 

Or maybe, just maybe, you're a ****ing conspiracy nut who's so obsessed with seeing cultural marxism in every corner, he reads it into ****ing everything. One could draw comparisons with "oversensitive SJWs looking to get offended".

 

 

I did want to point out something that I see as a logical issue with these two arguments, and I'm curious as to what other think.

 

Unless, of course, there are cries for Warrior's Orochi, Final Fantasy or other Asian based series to add African based characters that I haven't seen - which is possible - it seems strange to bring the charges against this game as opposed to other games that come from fairly homogenous societies (as I understand Poland and Japan both are) which don't allow for characters from world cultures outside their own. 

 

 

Well, it's kind of one of the article's point that black people very obviously exist within the setting, yet they are still omitted.

 

"War zones ravaged by nazi elves are not exactly a popular travel destination for people who otherwise live half a world away" is a perfectly acceptable counterargument to this, mind.

 

 

I've never understood the argument that fantastic elements in a game automatically invalidate any sense of historical accuracy

 

 

Probably because the inclusion of fantastical elements, by definition, precludes historical accuracy.

 

I believe the word you're looking for is "historicizing".

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

It seems common to think that anyone critiquing culture from a feminist/anti-racist point of view has in mind some pure, self-contained soul that gets corrupted by racist or sexist culture, and that we must purge our culture of anything that can taint this fragile core inside of us through censorship. That's not what anyone is trying to do, that would be insane, because that core doesn't exist. This is the point: Our minds are already controlled. Not by anyone in particular, but by the cultural influence of our society. That is our default state. There is no pure internal atom of reason.

 

 

Also, this guy here speaks the truth.

 

I've been struggling to get the same point across for months without ever managing to actually put it into words.

[Blarghagh]

Interesting article/blog on the witcher situation.

 

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439

 

This was the most interesting read on the subject so far. Thanks for that!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Interesting article/blog on the witcher situation.

 

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439

 

This was the most interesting read on the subject so far. Thanks for that!

 

 

It was butthurt whining from a guy incapable of differentiating "I'd like to be represented in gaming and boy, is the community reaction vicious to a simple request like this or what?" from "The Witcher 3 is a horrible racist screed against minorities that should be eradicated from the face of the Earth".

 

Complete with a big helping of "I will tell you how you're allowed to express your complaints because I know better what serves your cause"-type of condescension at the end, because really, it would be kind of unrealistic to expect a guy who can't even read to be not completely tone-deaf.

Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Well when you use a game as an example of the "problem" it is a negative thing against it. Is pretty ridiculous but people have become freaks that invest in a random NPC too much (if not then, erm, who cares?).

 

Oh I did get a good laugh about how the game dehumanizes non whites, though.

 

Implementation wise, would be nice to hear what is acceptable for CDPR to "fix" this. End up with a checklist I guess.

 

You seem pretty butthurt about it, heh.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Malcador

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Well when you use a game as an example of the "problem" it is a negative thing against it. 

 

 

 

I think there's a rather sizeable conceptual gulf between "I'm going to talk about this problem in context of The Witcher 3 [proceeds to make no claims of TW3 being racist/made by racists and no requests that anything be changed]" (ie. what the Polygon article did) and "you lie and you shame and defame a perfectly fine game just because it’s not something you want" (ie. what this joker claims the Polygon article did).

 

There's definitely some projecting going on here, methinks.

 

 

Implementation wise, would be nice to hear what is acceptable for CDPR to "fix" this. End up with a checklist I guess.

 

 

It's not my place to guess what people of color who'd prefer better representation would find a good solution.

 

That said, I think it's acceptable for CDPR to make no changes. This is not about The Witcher 3. Minority representation being lacking is an industry-wide thing. Individual examples can be fine. The article was less about the lack of representation, and more about the vicious backlash to complaints regarding it.

 

You seem pretty butthurt about it, heh.

 

 

I'm butthurt about TN's reaction to it. The article is par for the course, him disregarding the condescension and false claims isn't.

Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Heh, ok, so you're against condescension. Hm.

 

Outside of Moosa there are some claiming CDPR are racist for this or espousing some white nationalism. And some of the harping over this trifle reaches that line. People love outrage, after all.

 

Maybe Moosa will give some solutions, but not likely.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Heh, ok, so you're against condescension. Hm.

 

I'm against artless condescension 

 

What grinds my gears isn't Chmielarz's condescending attitude, it's him being completely unaware of how condescending he sounds.

 

Outside of Moosa there are some claiming CDPR are racist for this or espousing some white nationalism. 

 

 

Well that's fine and dandy, but it's still not justification to claiming that "[the] perpetually offended do not just demand changes. They also shame developers for not catering to their own personal needs, and they act as if they are the voice of all" while linking to an article that neither demands changes, nor shames the developers, nor acts as if the writer is the voice of all.

[Malcador]

Well he is right. I guess he is commenting on the whole fuss as well as the article that kicked this stuff off and not it alone. Which is fine for things like this.

 

There is a set that will find something to be upset on other's behalf for, regardless of being GG or not.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Well he is right. I guess he is commenting on the whole fuss as well as the article that kicked this stuff off and not it alone. Which is fine for things like this.

 

 

You don't think it's a bit counter-productive to make a claim regarding what a certain group of people is doing, and instead of linking to people who actually do the thing you're accusing them of doing, pointing to an example where you can't see any of the listed behaviors?

Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Yep, is easy to look around and get in the mire of this though.

[Zoraptor]

Hilariously dumb.

 

...and look who is endorsing it:

 

 

Not so long ago it was about white male gamers hating women. Now it is just white men.

 

Arguments about slavic culture in Witcher 3 are nonsense, to prove it I'll cite... terminally-incoherent.com? Even if there was nothing wrong with the blog content you'd think he could at least have used a URL shortener.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Yep, is easy to look around and get in the mire of this though.

 

I don't know why you feel a need to defend a claim that's outright misleading at best.

 

If you make claims of vaguely-defined "people" doing something, and inject a link to an article, it's at least suggestive of "this here article is an example of what I'm talking about".

Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[JadedWolf]

Okay, small rant. No one should mind if a fantasy world has people of different ethnicity, sexual preference or what not in it, as long as it feels natural and not in a manner where it's just putting a not-white-heterosexual-male in just to tick a box. But my personal beef with seeing people point at the Witcher 3 is... Look, it's the third installment of series that's based on a series of books in which the world was already firmly established... What can you honestly expect?

 

Did these same people complain about Lord of the Rings?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

it's the third installment of series that's based on a series of books in which the world was already firmly established... 

 

...To have people of color. Hell, Geralt runs into a pair of them in The Sword of Destiny who are clearly mercenaries, and therefore should feel right at home in the war-torn North. Hence the grumbling.

 

But I think people (on both sides) are blowing this far out of proportion. Then again, I thought the same thing about the transphobic backer content.

Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Meshugger]

 

It is that it makes it impossible for anyone else to be racist against white men since they are according to the same theory in position of power.

 

I swear, you people are ****ing allergic to nuance.

 

Yes, it does make it impossible for structural racism to exist against white men on a society-wide scale (in the West, at least). It never implies that individual instances of racism against whites can't exist.

 

 

Lets turn the tables.  I do not know what these structures are or how they are made racist, but how would you suggest society should do tear/change these structures and what counter measures should be made for racist structures to form in the first place?

 

 

Read the Moby ****, the Bible, or whatever the same way and you will find the same result, which is it that it will be different than the overall message. For that, you have to read between the lines.

 

The author used the Witcher 3 as an example for a greater overreaching agenda that race in games need to be more diverse and it is quite sinister (maybe i am giving the guy too much credit here) that he chose this game of all games as a platform to start from. Basically, it is subversion/deconstruction of what they percieve as the dominant culture and games are no different.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, you're a ****ing conspiracy nut who's so obsessed with seeing cultural marxism in every corner, he reads it into ****ing everything. One could draw comparisons with "oversensitive SJWs looking to get offended".

 

Every larger text has a theme or a message. Moby **** was analogy of the whole modern western civilization trying to kill God. Moosas text had the message of as already described. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Lets turn the tables.  I do not know what these structures are or how they are made racist, but how would you suggest society should do tear/change these structures and what counter measures should be made for racist structures to form in the first place?

 

 

 

At least acknowledging the existence of structural racism would be a nice first step.

 

 

 

Every larger text has a theme or a message.

 

 

Which can generally be gleaned through engagement with the core text, not vague claims of "it's totally there, honest".

[Malcador]

 

 

Yep, is easy to look around and get in the mire of this though.

I don't know why you feel a need to defend a claim that's outright misleading at best.

 

If you make claims of vaguely-defined "people" doing something, and inject a link to an article, it's at least suggestive of "this here article is an example of what I'm talking about".

Is not most of the article, though. And isn't misleading, at least on my reading. Could do without sniping at them, but that's the rule of the cesspool this is

[Malcador]

 

 

it's the third installment of series that's based on a series of books in which the world was already firmly established...

...To have people of color. Hell, Geralt runs into a pair of them in The Sword of Destiny who are clearly mercenaries, and therefore should feel right at home in the war-torn North. Hence the grumbling.

 

But I think people (on both sides) are blowing this far out of proportion. Then again, I thought the same thing about the transphobic backer content.

Yeah but Zerrikania is a remote land and doesn't have close ties with the North. Different with Nilfgaard I think but we never go there.

 

Kind of dumb for people to pout for the lack of some Zerrikanian standing around