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A good balanced Melee Rogue build without min maxing?

Balanced Melee Rogue Build

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#1
Fessels

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* As the Topic title mentions, I am looking for a good balanced Melee Rogue build with out min maxing. Since I do not play on hard and up ( Not so far at least. ) their is no need for min maxing in my opinion.
 
* I have a ranged Rogue and I certainly like him, but on these forums I some times see people mention that a Melee Rogue is even more dangerous then a ranged one. Now curious as I am I would like to try and see whether that is true or not.
 
* Now I am well aware that a Melee Rogue is not a tank, but I hope some of you know a good balanced Melee Roguee build that will not go down in 1 or 2 hits? But at the same time He/She would be able to make sure the enemy is aware how dangerous a Rogue can be up close? ( at least long enough to put the hurt on the enemy and then move out of danger some how? )


#2
bigwillystyle

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I don't know your definition of balanced, but below is what I ran as a hireling.  I did not have any "dump" stats, as I don't think any were necessary.  

 

Hearth Orlan Rogue

Might 17
Con 10
Dex 19
Per 12
Int 10
Res 10
 
I used Rapiers / Daggers for increased accuracy, but you could certainly use Sabres / Stilettos as well and sub in Weapon Focus: Ruffian.  Order of abilities / talents is from memory and may not be 100% correct.  
 
I used this hireling on Hard difficulty, usually within 2-3 meters of a Paladin.  
 
Lvl1 Crippling Strike
Lvl2 Weapon Focus: Noble
Lvl3 Dirty Fighting
Lvl4 Vicious Fighting
Lvl5 Reckless Assault
Lvl6 Two Weapon Style
Lvl7 Coordinated Positioning
Lvl8 Vulnerable Attack
Lvl9 Deathblows
Lvl10 Savage Attack
Lvl11 Deep Wounds
vl12 Shadowing Beyond
 
Edited for clarity of ability / talent choices

Edited by bigwillystyle, 11 May 2015 - 09:26 AM.

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#3
Raven Darkholme

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Min maxing isn't as good as many people make it sound like, since stats don't in/decrease your accuracy stats are not that important in PoE(at least in PotD) since you will benefit from not dumping stats on almost EVERY build.

 

As to the rogue: it is NOT more dangerous melee than ranged, in fact optimized it will ALWAYS open combat with ranged for huge single target damage.

The biggest benefit of the melee rogue is constant flanking and more dps (slightly), but you have to babysit the melee rogue way more.

I would certainly not go below 7 RES, PER and CON, for CON possibly even higher. Give your rogue good armor, to be sure to take a hit. Definitely max MIG and DEX if you don't have a cipher also max INT for longer debuff duration, if you have a cipher for endless debuffs INT is less important, and can go down to 7 to, for higher def stats.


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#4
jones092201@gmail.com

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I run a melee rogue with 18 per, 18 res. it gives you high deflection for a rogue. If you add all +damage traits, you begin to hit pretty hard. This also gets you a lot of good dialogue options.

It's counter intuitive, but it works pretty well especially on normal.

Edited by jones092201@gmail.com, 11 May 2015 - 09:08 AM.

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#5
KDubya

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What do you consider min/maxing? Lower than 8? Higher than 15?

 

If you are using a party on normal difficulty it does not really matter what your build is.

 

As a melee rogue your deflection will be low, as well as your endurance. You'll need someone else to get the attention of the mobs, someone else to apply status effects and then you will run around and flank and roll up the monsters. Or you can get a reach weapon and attack from behind the front ranks.

 

The talent/abilities you want are reckless assault, savage attack, weapon focus, weapon style (dual, single, two handed), dirty fighting, deathblows, deep wounds, and possibly the DR penetrating modal for melee.



#6
JONNIN

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you can't have a "build" without customizing something.   What do you call min/maxing?   You have like 4 variables, and you can adjust them as you see fit (my suggestions included).

 

race -- orlan (hits to crits bonus is potent), dwarf or  amuana (high might damager), other (whatever you want for RP or stat reasons?).

 

stats -- dex and might are good for hitting often and hitting hard.  

 

starting class choice -- I like hobble because you get 2 of them each encounter instead of 1 blinder.  But it does not matter much cause your caster will debuff after you hit town the first time.

 

starting background --- I like to get 1 mechanics and 1 athletics which is laborer background (might be a second with this set?).   If you want stealth, get some stealth. 

 

That is all you can really "build" at creation.   After this, try for 3-4 points in athletics and either a hard mechanics build or a hard stealth build.  Or be the oddball with lore so you can do emergency spells is valid as well.    As for choices when you level up, ...  there are too many good combinations to list.  Narrow down what you want to specialize as -- 2h weapons?  Ranged?  Dual wield?  What weapon specialty do you want?   I like to pick a weapon type that has something+crush, as crush is one of the least resisted, so pollaxe is a favorite of mine, but you can make a go of a lot of types.... you *know* you can make a custom spear later...   you know what some of the rare weapons are ... pick something, specialize in it, get your accuracy up into the 50-80 (as you level) and higher, crit everything to death, and win :)


Edited by JONNIN, 11 May 2015 - 09:34 AM.


#7
srlapo

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I finished the game twice with rogues. One was a sword and board interrupt rogue using Mosquito as a weapon. It was as unkillable as a sword and board fighter but with a lot more damage potential with a little support from the team's cipher. Just max out Per and Res, get the sword and board talent at level 2 and then just focus getting some good defensive gear and class/talent choices, plus hold the line, reckless assault, savage attack and deep wounds. The common consensus here seems to be that interrupt sucks but I can tell you from experience that with the right build AND weapon, it was quite noticeable and effective at keeping enemies busy. Also perception gets quite a few good dialogue choices.

 

Second rogue was a two handed flank/retaliate build. Max out Might and Res (to prevent interrupts, you are going to get hit a lot) get some boots of speed, the Sanguine Plate for pre 1.05 (now the Coat of Ill Payment or Hiro+Sanguine) and Tidefall. Send in the tank first to attract your enemies, dash to their back and unleash Tidefall's awesome damage on them. If they turn on you your retaliate attack will make short work of them, as it will be boosted by the deep wounds ability. This rogue needs a lot of support (pain block FTW) and babysitting, but it will do short work of pretty much any enemy you have to deal with.


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#8
Fessels

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Spoiler

 

Thank you Bigwillystyle.

 

 

What do you consider min/maxing? Lower than 8? Higher than 15?

 

If you are using a party on normal difficulty it does not really matter what your build is.

 

As a melee rogue your deflection will be low, as well as your endurance. You'll need someone else to get the attention of the mobs, someone else to apply status effects and then you will run around and flank and roll up the monsters. Or you can get a reach weapon and attack from behind the front ranks.

 

The talent/abilities you want are reckless assault, savage attack, weapon focus, weapon style (dual, single, two handed), dirty fighting, deathblows, deep wounds, and possibly the DR penetrating modal for melee.

 

With that I personally mean with no min maxing is no stats below 10. As long as I play below Hard then using the min/max method is not needed in my opinion. As for the Deflection and endurance ... yeah that is a bit of a problem so to speak. And thank you for the list of talents and abilities. 

 

 

Min maxing isn't as good as many people make it sound like, since stats don't in/decrease your accuracy stats are not that important in PoE(at least in PotD) since you will benefit from not dumping stats on almost EVERY build.

 

As to the rogue: it is NOT more dangerous melee than ranged, in fact optimized it will ALWAYS open combat with ranged for huge single target damage.

The biggest benefit of the melee rogue is constant flanking and more dps (slightly), but you have to babysit the melee rogue way more.

I would certainly not go below 7 RES, PER and CON, for CON possibly even higher. Give your rogue good armor, to be sure to take a hit. Definitely max MIG and DEX if you don't have a cipher also max INT for longer debuff duration, if you have a cipher for endless debuffs INT is less important, and can go down to 7 to, for higher def stats.

 

Well I do not wish to go below 10 with a Rogue. The first version of my Ranged Rogue was min maxed, but I restarted him and made a few changes that where better. Still Low Deflection and Res gives no real benefits with him but still he is better then the first version. Thanks on the MIG/DEX/INT part with or without a Cipher. 

 

 

I run a melee rogue with 18 per, 18 res. it gives you high deflection for a rogue. If you add all +damage traits, you begin to hit pretty hard. This also gets you a lot of good dialogue options.

It's counter intuitive, but it works pretty well especially on normal. 

 

THat does sound counter intuitive indeed? that would mean DEX and MIG are at default, and that would not be a good idea for a Melee Rogue?

 

 
Spoiler

 

Thank you Jonnin, I will. :)

 

 

I finished the game twice with rogues. One was a sword and board interrupt rogue using Mosquito as a weapon. It was as unkillable as a sword and board fighter but with a lot more damage potential with a little support from the team's cipher. Just max out Per and Res, get the sword and board talent at level 2 and then just focus getting some good defensive gear and class/talent choices, plus hold the line, reckless assault, savage attack and deep wounds. The common consensus here seems to be that interrupt sucks but I can tell you from experience that with the right build AND weapon, it was quite noticeable and effective at keeping enemies busy. Also perception gets quite a few good dialogue choices.

 

Second rogue was a two handed flank/retaliate build. Max out Might and Res (to prevent interrupts, you are going to get hit a lot) get some boots of speed, the Sanguine Plate for pre 1.05 (now the Coat of Ill Payment or Hiro+Sanguine) and Tidefall. Send in the tank first to attract your enemies, dash to their back and unleash Tidefall's awesome damage on them. If they turn on you your retaliate attack will make short work of them, as it will be boosted by the deep wounds ability. This rogue needs a lot of support (pain block FTW) and babysitting, but it will do short work of pretty much any enemy you have to deal with.

 

Okay you are the second person to mention to max Per and Res, well with the Sword and Shield version? Since the rest would be at the default for whatever race I decide to take, would that not hamper the damage I could do with the Melee Rogue. ( Even with Coastal Aumaua? )

 
As for the second build ... well I have patch 1.05 but I guess that does not really matter in the long run. As for using a Greatsword with a Rogue ... well that would certainly surprise most Enemies. :)


#9
Psychevore

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No min maxing?

Me sad. Cause you should totally do Hearth Orlan (Living Lands) with 18/3/18/18/3/18. Absolutely beastly.

#10
Fessels

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No min maxing?

Me sad. Cause you should totally do Hearth Orlan (Living Lands) with 18/3/18/18/3/18. Absolutely beastly.

 

No I do not want to min max with a Rogue. And lowering Con to that level even if I would min max with a Rogue is a very bad idea in my opinion. They do not have much health to begin with, so a Con of 3 with a Rogue is a very bad idea. ( Again in my opinion. ) A Rogue with Mig/Dex/Per/Res at 18 would certainly be a beast, but with very little health. And getting hit ( Which will happen, whether I want it or not. ) would end my Melee Rogue very quickly.



#11
KDubya

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Keeping 10 minimum.

 

Pale Elf deadfire archipelago - pale elfs look cool, the elemental DR helps against friendly fire AoE and shades

 

Might 10  - melee rogues get a lot of damage bonuses so might has a smaller effect for them.

Con    10 - minimum

Dex     20 - fastest attack rate

Per     18 - interrupts are useful, gets dialogue options. Could swap with resolve for concentration bonus or in might for more damage.

Int      10 - minimum, rogues have little use for intellect

Res     10 - minimum

 

In combat you'll have +20% from reckless, +20% savage, +45% superb for +85% damage, with sneak attack +135%, +185% with deathblows. Losing a possible additional +30% from a 20 might has less effect. +135% vs +165% is only 22% less damage, +185% vs +215% is only 16% less damage.


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#12
Psychevore

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No min maxing?

Me sad. Cause you should totally do Hearth Orlan (Living Lands) with 18/3/18/18/3/18. Absolutely beastly.

 
No I do not want to min max with a Rogue. And lowering Con to that level even if I would min max with a Rogue is a very bad idea in my opinion. They do not have much health to begin with, so a Con of 3 with a Rogue is a very bad idea. ( Again in my opinion. ) A Rogue with Mig/Dex/Per/Res at 18 would certainly be a beast, but with very little health. And getting hit ( Which will happen, whether I want it or not. ) would end my Melee Rogue very quickly.


I played that. You just don't barge in like you're the hulk, you start off with a pistol shot or something. Get everyone in place, switch to melee, get some sneak attack debuffs on enemies and then start slaughtering.

B esides, health is overrated. I'm currently a party where everyone except the Dwarf Priest has 3 con, who's minimum is 4. On PotD, of course

#13
Fessels

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Spoiler

 

Thank you KDubya. :)



#14
srlapo

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I finished the game twice with rogues. One was a sword and board interrupt rogue using Mosquito as a weapon. It was as unkillable as a sword and board fighter but with a lot more damage potential with a little support from the team's cipher. Just max out Per and Res, get the sword and board talent at level 2 and then just focus getting some good defensive gear and class/talent choices, plus hold the line, reckless assault, savage attack and deep wounds. The common consensus here seems to be that interrupt sucks but I can tell you from experience that with the right build AND weapon, it was quite noticeable and effective at keeping enemies busy. Also perception gets quite a few good dialogue choices.
 
Second rogue was a two handed flank/retaliate build. Max out Might and Res (to prevent interrupts, you are going to get hit a lot) get some boots of speed, the Sanguine Plate for pre 1.05 (now the Coat of Ill Payment or Hiro+Sanguine) and Tidefall. Send in the tank first to attract your enemies, dash to their back and unleash Tidefall's awesome damage on them. If they turn on you your retaliate attack will make short work of them, as it will be boosted by the deep wounds ability. This rogue needs a lot of support (pain block FTW) and babysitting, but it will do short work of pretty much any enemy you have to deal with.

 
Okay you are the second person to mention to max Per and Res, well with the Sword and Shield version? Since the rest would be at the default for whatever race I decide to take, would that not hamper the damage I could do with the Melee Rogue. ( Even with Coastal Aumaua? )

 
As for the second build ... well I have patch 1.05 but I guess that does not really matter in the long run. As for using a Greatsword with a Rogue ... well that would certainly surprise most Enemies. original.gif

 

 
You need to decide what you want for your rogue, damage or deflection. The way this game system works you either need to max out defense as much as possible or ignore it, the balanced approach doesn't work. Sword and shield plus high per and res rogues are geared towards deflection, basically filling the job of a fighter, but with more damage options if the other party members flank or drop crowd control effects. Orlan or Moon Godlike would be ideal with this kind of rogue, but any other will do.
 
As for the Plate wearing, greatsword wielding rogue... this isn't D&D, and the things that make something like this a bad idea in that system do not exist here. Sneak attack extra damage is based on the damage you do, not how many attacks you can make in a combat turn (as is the case of D&D 3rd edition), so, with the way combat damage reduction is set up,  it tends to favor two handed weapons. As for the plate... the retaliate mod kicks in when you get hit, so you need to have as much DR as possible. Also the concept of weapon and armor proficiency do not exist here, so there is nothing preventing a rogue from using two handed swords and heavy armor.
 

No min maxing?

Me sad. Cause you should totally do Hearth Orlan (Living Lands) with 18/3/18/18/3/18. Absolutely beastly.


Dumping int is a bad idea with rogues, it kills the damage from deep wounds as the duration is modified by it.



#15
Fessels

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As for the Plate wearing, greatsword wielding rogue... this isn't D&D, and the things that make something like this a bad idea in that system do not exist here. Sneak attack extra damage is based on the damage you do, not how many attacks you can make in a combat turn (as is the case of D&D 3rd edition), so, with the way combat damage reduction is set up,  it tends to favor two handed weapons. As for the plate... the retaliate mod kicks in when you get hit, so you need to have as much DR as possible. Also the concept of weapon and armor proficiency do not exist here, so there is nothing preventing a rogue from using two handed swords and heavy armor.

 

Oh with my sentence about that I did not mean I would not be willing to give that a try, ( Heck I use a pistol with my Ranged Rogue, also not really D&D. :) ) I was just thinking about how surprised an enemy would look if they got backstabbed by a Rogue with Plate armour and a Greatsword ( Should they survive that is. ) ... especially when playing with an Orlan. :)   



#16
Kaigen42

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Dumping int is a bad idea with rogues, it kills the damage from deep wounds as the duration is modified by it.

 

Deep Wounds is overwritten when you hit again regardless of duration, so if you're a melee rogue that's probably a non-issue



#17
Veynn

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Try this build:

 

http://forums.obsidi...stiletto-rogue/



#18
Fessels

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As a matter of fact on the Sorcerer's Place PoE forums Crucis already linked to your build. And your build lowers Con ( Although not nearly as far as Psychevore's stats suggestion. ) With a character like a Fighter or Barbarian who get a whole lot of health any way I would not have to much of a problem lowering Con to 8. But as I mentioned before Rogues get little health anyway so I do not like to lower it even more. As for taking 2 points from Res ... well the talk options from Res might be nice but I am more concerned about the Concentration? It would mean the Rogue would be more easily interrupted? And sooner or later my Melee Rogue will get hit, that can not be avoided for 100%.

 

Now Crucis also mentioned this on the SP PoE forum ...

 

 

I don't recall that there'd really be any difference between a character with 8 in a stat and 10 in that same stat. And the problem if one is looking to maximize talking options, you end up with a crapload of points in PER, INT, and RES, and not a lot else. You end up with an all talk, no fight character.

 

 

So maybe the result is not as bad when lowering a stat 1 or 2 points, but still once I start a Melee Rogue I would not like to remove any points from stats that do not get raised. Crucis also mentioned that I could hire a Mercenary Rogue with another character I like to play with as my main, and see how that goes. Then I would have more experience with a Melee Rogue and then I could use that experience afterwards to make a main char Melee Rogue.



#19
Veynn

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As a matter of fact on the Sorcerer's Place PoE forums Crucis already linked to your build. And your build lowers Con ( Although not nearly as far as Psychevore's stats suggestion. ) With a character like a Fighter or Barbarian who get a whole lot of health any way I would not have to much of a problem lowering Con to 8. But as I mentioned before Rogues get little health anyway so I do not like to lower it even more. As for taking 2 points from Res ... well the talk options from Res might be nice but I am more concerned about the Concentration? It would mean the Rogue would be more easily interrupted? And sooner or later my Melee Rogue will get hit, that can not be avoided for 100%.

 

Now Crucis also mentioned this on the SP PoE forum ...

 

The way you play this build is different than what you would usually do with other melee characters. You don't rush it like your tank or off-tank. You wait a second or two before your tank or 2nd frontline engage the enemies in front of them. When the enemies are engaged, that's where you flank them and start sneak attacking.

 

The key here is proper positioning. I never had problems with my 8 CON and endurance during fights since the enemies most of the time are engaged with my tanks. As for concentration, you really don't need it. Why? You are not engaging enemies head on. Most of the time you're sneak attacking from the flank away from the enemy's attention. 

 

8 RES might be a problem if you're into conversation, especially if you're a first time player and have no idea about stat checks during conversation. I usually wear items with RES and eat food with RES, as well as using a resting bonus with RES, if I fancy replying to a dialogue with RES check.

 

To be honest, if you're not into micromanagement, you'll have a hard time with this build. You have to utilize your other party member's spells in order make the most out of it. (early-mid game) It's a fast and powerful build. You kill so fast that it already feels ridiculous.

 

PS: I could still lower my CON to maybe 6 and still rock with this build. But I really don't like min-maxing.


Edited by Veynn, 12 May 2015 - 08:41 AM.

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#20
Kaigen42

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Since Con is a percentage effect, it has a lower impact the smaller your class's health pool is. A max level Rogue only gets about 5 endurance per point of Con, so the difference between 10 Con and 8 Con on a Rogue is the difference between 180 endurance and 170. This is why people find it so easy to dump Con when they're min-maxing. More power to you if you want to leave it average because it bothers you to have dump stats, though.







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