Ranged Fighter, How viable is it?

[View619]

 

 

 

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

 

I don't know about that.  Do either of them take a -15 accuracy penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers take a -15 penalty for using melee weapons?  That penalty is a pretty nasty hit to any ranger's effectiveness in melee, IMO.

 

 

Why do you keep repeating that ? You've already been corrected in another thread. There is no -15 penalty for using melee weapons. There probably was at some point. Don't rely on the outdated wiki.

 

Fighter and Barbarian are literally the worst classes for ranged combat. Even Paladins can do crazy single target damage for a few attacks. A monk can use Dangerous Implement talent, Swift Strikes, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel, maybe Stunning Blow.

 

 

I don't constantly re-read every freakin' thread on this forum that I post in.  I've seen no such correction, nor have I seen any reason to think otherwise.

 

 

 

No offence, but if you would try a Ranger for yourself in-game then you would see that your information is outdated. Check your copy of the game before following the out-dated wiki information.

 

On topic, a dedicated ranged fighter probably isn't worth it. They could put in some work with that Two Handed weapon talent, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery and maybe Confident Aim, but they need to get to the front-lines eventually to show their worth. As far as class-specific talents, Weapon Mastery, Disciplined Barrage and Confident Aim are you best bets afaik.

 

You could always shift them between expending their initial volley with one or two (extra weapon set) ranged weapons, then running in to flank an enemy on the front-line. You're not really shoe-horned into making a defensive fighter, but all that Endurance and innate recovery is wasted in the back.

Edited May 15, 2015 by View619

[Crucis]

 

No offence, but if you would try a Ranger for yourself in-game then you would see that your information is outdated. Check your copy of the game before following the out-dated wiki information.

 

On topic, a dedicated ranged fighter probably isn't worth it. They could put in some work with that Two Handed weapon talent, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery and maybe Confident Aim, but they need to get to the front-lines eventually to show their worth. As far as class-specific talents, Weapon Mastery, Disciplined Barrage and Confident Aim are you best bets afaik.

 

You could always shift them between expending their initial volley with one or two (extra weapon set) ranged weapons, then running in to flank an enemy on the front-line. You're not really shoe-horned into making a defensive fighter, but all that Endurance and innate recovery is wasted in the back.

 

 

View, the problem is that a fair amount of the stuff in game is so darned vague that it can be difficult to tell what is what.

 

 

As for two handed weapons, honestly I'm not a huge fan of 2H'd weapons.  Not saying that I don't occasionally use them, but I don't particularly like spending a talent on the 2H weapon feat.  If I spend a talent point on a style, it's usually on weapon and shield style because I like the extra defense.  But that's a play style thing for me.

 

OTOH, I suppose if one *is* a fan of 2H'd weapons, then the 2H style feat may be worth taking.  Personal taste, I guess.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Crucis

[View619]

 

 

No offence, but if you would try a Ranger for yourself in-game then you would see that your information is outdated. Check your copy of the game before following the out-dated wiki information.

 

On topic, a dedicated ranged fighter probably isn't worth it. They could put in some work with that Two Handed weapon talent, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery and maybe Confident Aim, but they need to get to the front-lines eventually to show their worth. As far as class-specific talents, Weapon Mastery, Disciplined Barrage and Confident Aim are you best bets afaik.

 

You could always shift them between expending their initial volley with one or two (extra weapon set) ranged weapons, then running in to flank an enemy on the front-line. You're not really shoe-horned into making a defensive fighter, but all that Endurance and innate recovery is wasted in the back.

 

 

View, the problem is that a fair amount of the stuff in game is so darned vague that it can be difficult to tell what is what.

 

 

As for two handed weapons, honestly I'm not a huge fan of 2H'd weapons.  Not saying that I don't occasionally use them, but I don't particularly like spending a talent on the 2H weapon feat.  If I spend a talent point on a style, it's usually on weapon and shield style because I like the extra defense.  But that's a play style thing for me.

 

OTOH, I suppose if one *is* a fan of 2H'd weapons, then the 2H style feat may be worth taking.  Personal taste, I guess.

 

 

I listed Two Handed Weapon style because I'm pretty sure it adds damage to ranged weapons as well, since they are two handed.

[Crucis]

 

 

 

No offence, but if you would try a Ranger for yourself in-game then you would see that your information is outdated. Check your copy of the game before following the out-dated wiki information.

 

On topic, a dedicated ranged fighter probably isn't worth it. They could put in some work with that Two Handed weapon talent, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery and maybe Confident Aim, but they need to get to the front-lines eventually to show their worth. As far as class-specific talents, Weapon Mastery, Disciplined Barrage and Confident Aim are you best bets afaik.

 

You could always shift them between expending their initial volley with one or two (extra weapon set) ranged weapons, then running in to flank an enemy on the front-line. You're not really shoe-horned into making a defensive fighter, but all that Endurance and innate recovery is wasted in the back.

 

 

View, the problem is that a fair amount of the stuff in game is so darned vague that it can be difficult to tell what is what.

 

 

As for two handed weapons, honestly I'm not a huge fan of 2H'd weapons.  Not saying that I don't occasionally use them, but I don't particularly like spending a talent on the 2H weapon feat.  If I spend a talent point on a style, it's usually on weapon and shield style because I like the extra defense.  But that's a play style thing for me.

 

OTOH, I suppose if one *is* a fan of 2H'd weapons, then the 2H style feat may be worth taking.  Personal taste, I guess.

 

 

I listed Two Handed Weapon style because I'm pretty sure it adds damage to ranged weapons as well, since they are two handed.

 

 

The game says that the 2H style only works for melee weapons, in the Talent's description. Whether this is actually true in practice is another matter.  (I was wondering if that was why you liked it though.) 

Edited May 15, 2015 by Crucis

[Veolfen]

People are always speaking of optimisation etc....

They do parties with 3 Might tanks and 3 constitution casters and ranged dps. 1 fail and their whole party can get kill etc...

 

I'm the kind of guy who don't like to reload and retry so much.

My rangers have between 7 or 9 const so they can take a bit more hits and are wearing some armor (loose of DPS compared to the optimised builds, but they can take more hits).

 

In 2 of my games, I have 2 ranged dps. A Ranger (7 cons) and a Fighter (9 cons). 

The ranger has a higher DPM, but on the other hand, the fighter hit harder (better against armored targets). And when engaged in Melee, the ranger can defend itself decently (just so he can survive while the priest heals the party), when on the other hand, the ranged fighter just switch to 1 handed weapon+shield and tank really well while dealing decent damages too ! (PS : The knockback doesn't work with a range weapon ^^)

 

As someone said before, it's like a bodyguard of the backline. The teleporting spirits where no longer a threat once I had my ranged fighter in my team. (1 tank paladin, 1 melee paladin, 1 barbarian, 1 hybrid fighter, 1 ranger and 1 priest).

[View619]

 

 

 

 

No offence, but if you would try a Ranger for yourself in-game then you would see that your information is outdated. Check your copy of the game before following the out-dated wiki information.

 

On topic, a dedicated ranged fighter probably isn't worth it. They could put in some work with that Two Handed weapon talent, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery and maybe Confident Aim, but they need to get to the front-lines eventually to show their worth. As far as class-specific talents, Weapon Mastery, Disciplined Barrage and Confident Aim are you best bets afaik.

 

You could always shift them between expending their initial volley with one or two (extra weapon set) ranged weapons, then running in to flank an enemy on the front-line. You're not really shoe-horned into making a defensive fighter, but all that Endurance and innate recovery is wasted in the back.

 

 

View, the problem is that a fair amount of the stuff in game is so darned vague that it can be difficult to tell what is what.

 

 

As for two handed weapons, honestly I'm not a huge fan of 2H'd weapons.  Not saying that I don't occasionally use them, but I don't particularly like spending a talent on the 2H weapon feat.  If I spend a talent point on a style, it's usually on weapon and shield style because I like the extra defense.  But that's a play style thing for me.

 

OTOH, I suppose if one *is* a fan of 2H'd weapons, then the 2H style feat may be worth taking.  Personal taste, I guess.

 

 

I listed Two Handed Weapon style because I'm pretty sure it adds damage to ranged weapons as well, since they are two handed.

 

 

The game says that the 2H style only works for melee weapons, in the Talent's description. Whether this is actually true in practice is another matter.  (I was wondering if that was why you liked it though.) 

 

 

Yeah, I'll have to check it out and see. If that's true though, I wouldn't pick it for ranged builds.

[JONNIN]

 

the ranger has a talent that I *assume* one would take to increase speed of reloads and shooting.  I forget its exact name, its a toggle that hurts accuracy a little and a later talent negates this effect -- or being a wood elf practically negates it with racial.   So it effectly zero-sums the penalty and provides the faster rate of fire, which dramatically improves damage output.   

 

Without this talent which is not available to fighters or rogues etc, they shoot and reload at the same rates, all *other* stuff being identical.

 

Ok, all things being equal (armor, stats, etc, everything except talents, then..)

I agree with you.  The ranger if wearing armor can swap to a shield and defend just fine.  But in that much armor, with presumably some defensive stats (not a 20 dex 20 might build type wearing a robe..)  it will be gimped for damage but still out damage the fighter set up for ranged combat by a margin of around 25% or more.    But here is the point of what I was trying to say... the ranger in the back is the choice for dealing damage, and probably should be built for that, which means it would be a rather poor defender of the wizard.   The fighter in the back, even naked with 20 dex/might, still will be doing only modest damage,  and is better off just being armored and set up in a role of defender than trying to wing it as s pseudo-damage-dealer.     So what I am saying is that all things here should not be equal --- pick the role you want the character to be best at (defender or damage dealer) and then select the class to fill it, rather than trying to force fit the wrong class here.    And, again, IMHO the role of defender is --- really most useful to less experienced players, and of dubious value for elite teams.

 

A fighter will have the following advantages that no other class can get:

 

1.) Armored grace - reduces armor penalty by 16%. A fighter in robes will be as fast as anyone else naked. A fighter in leather will be faster than anyone else in robes.

 

2.) Weapon spec and mastery - together will add 25% damage to all weapons in the same weapon group.

 

Every fighter will have the above abilities. This will deliver more damage than a ranged rogue without sneak attacks who only has the 20% hit to crit talent and deep wounds to increase ranged damage. Compared to a ranger with swift aim a fighter will fire slower but hit harder with more accuracy, or fire faster with less accuracy compared to a ranger with vicious shot.

 

Taking the defender and wary defender will greatly enhance the already superior defensive characteristics of the fighter. Going all in for offensive would get you confident aim for a 20% graze>hit (with 35% graze it would go to 28% graze and increase of 50% damage to 7% of attacks or a 3.5% increase to average damage) plus a 20% increase to minimum damage for a total of 13.5% increase to average damage. Either approach will also apply to melee attacks.

 

Fighters are a lot more powerful than many here give them credit for.

 

 

The ranger will also have weapon spec.   And marksman, which the fighter might have as well.   The ranger can reduce the swift penalty to -2 or 3 (I forget) accuracy, the difference in # of hits and crits there is microscopic.    If we consider swift aim vs armored grace to nearly be equal,  that leaves the fighter with mastery vs the ranger's pet link and such.   I am not sure which of those will come out on top.   It is probably pretty close.    Armored grace comes late game, though.  I was looking at total damage done over a game and the ranger was way ahead, but thinking on it, the ranger gets his damage early.

Edited May 15, 2015 by JONNIN

[MadDemiurg]

Weapons spec is unique. Weapon focus is what's universally available. Theoretically useful fighter's abilities for ranged: weapon spec/mastery (+25% damage), armored grace (wearing clothes is not that great even as a ranged glasscannon), disciplined barrage (limited duration, not super useful in a team with priest/paladin), confident aim.

 

It also comes down to talents and limitations on how many you can pick though.

 

Ranged fighter can do:

Weapon Focus

Weapon Mastery

Penetrating Shot

Arms bearer

Quickswitch

Marksman

 

With abilities:

Disciplined barrage

Weapon spec

Confident aim

Armored grace

Vigorous defence (pop up when in danger)

Unbroken

 

Result: +25% damage on up to 4 (with island aumaua) hard hitting ranger weapons with +10 accuracy (disciplined barrage, which is enough for initial quickswitch burst), some bonus to min damage and graze -> hit conversion and some extra defences if things go south.  I'd say it's competitive with ranger quickswitch build, although overall still worse offensively (but with extra survivability on top). It would help if there were more offensive abilities to pick instead of vigorous defence & unbroken but these aren't too horrible either (and unbroken would see much more use than on a tank fighter). Besides, all your damage talents work in melee as well so you can go like 3 arbalests + greatsword for flexibility.

Edited May 15, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[luzarius]

I've been toying around about making a ranged fighter. Sure, there are classes that might seem more suited to it (such as ranger or rogue) but I feel they don't really incorporate what I'm looking for. Mostly because rogue talents seem a bit lacking in a sense (backstab doesn't really work etc.)

 

If we look at the features of fighter, we can see that they have these things going for them:

 

High base accuracy (30)

Disciplined Barrage (knockdown does not work with ranged?)

Confident Aim (reduce grazes count)

Weapon Specialization

Armored Grace (if you feel like wearing SOME armor)

 

Aside from that, you're forced to take the generic talents available for everyone. Is it that bad though? I know you're not getting Vicious Aim from Ranger line, which might or might not be that great (due to being a modal). Rogue obviously has a lot more damage via sneak attack, but that requires setup.

 

Pistol wielding gunfighter comes to my mind.

 

You may want to take vulnerable attack in addition to the DR bypass that a pistol gives. You'll want to support Eder as much as possible.

 

Let Eder be your TANK, you be the GUNFIGHTER. 

 

Does anyone know if it's viable to have four weapon slots, with a pistol in each slot?  Then you take the talent that lets you switch weapons really fast.

 

Bam, four pistol shots in a row baby, HOLY **** THAT'S SOME GUN FIGHTIN SON!!

[Eywa]

 

I've been toying around about making a ranged fighter. Sure, there are classes that might seem more suited to it (such as ranger or rogue) but I feel they don't really incorporate what I'm looking for. Mostly because rogue talents seem a bit lacking in a sense (backstab doesn't really work etc.)

 

If we look at the features of fighter, we can see that they have these things going for them:

 

High base accuracy (30)

Disciplined Barrage (knockdown does not work with ranged?)

Confident Aim (reduce grazes count)

Weapon Specialization

Armored Grace (if you feel like wearing SOME armor)

 

Aside from that, you're forced to take the generic talents available for everyone. Is it that bad though? I know you're not getting Vicious Aim from Ranger line, which might or might not be that great (due to being a modal). Rogue obviously has a lot more damage via sneak attack, but that requires setup.

 

Pistol wielding gunfighter comes to my mind.

 

You may want to take vulnerable attack in addition to the DR bypass that a pistol gives. You'll want to support Eder as much as possible.

 

Let Eder be your TANK, you be the GUNFIGHTER. 

 

Does anyone know if it's viable to have four weapon slots, with a pistol in each slot?  Then you take the talent that lets you switch weapons really fast.

 

Bam, four pistol shots in a row baby, HOLY **** THAT'S SOME GUN FIGHTIN SON!!

 

Yeah, it's very good and fun build my main rogue was like that but only with x3 arquebuses not 4 because of elf race for rp reasons

[Crucis]

 

I've been toying around about making a ranged fighter. Sure, there are classes that might seem more suited to it (such as ranger or rogue) but I feel they don't really incorporate what I'm looking for. Mostly because rogue talents seem a bit lacking in a sense (backstab doesn't really work etc.)

 

If we look at the features of fighter, we can see that they have these things going for them:

 

High base accuracy (30)

Disciplined Barrage (knockdown does not work with ranged?)

Confident Aim (reduce grazes count)

Weapon Specialization

Armored Grace (if you feel like wearing SOME armor)

 

Aside from that, you're forced to take the generic talents available for everyone. Is it that bad though? I know you're not getting Vicious Aim from Ranger line, which might or might not be that great (due to being a modal). Rogue obviously has a lot more damage via sneak attack, but that requires setup.

 

Pistol wielding gunfighter comes to my mind.

 

You may want to take vulnerable attack in addition to the DR bypass that a pistol gives. You'll want to support Eder as much as possible.

 

Let Eder be your TANK, you be the GUNFIGHTER. 

 

Does anyone know if it's viable to have four weapon slots, with a pistol in each slot?  Then you take the talent that lets you switch weapons really fast.

 

Bam, four pistol shots in a row baby, HOLY **** THAT'S SOME GUN FIGHTIN SON!!

 

 

Yeah, that is a lot of firepower, though rather short ranged, given that they're 8m ranged pistols.  Regardless, if I was playing such a fighter, I'd never leave myself without a backup melee option. 

 

In fact, I'm in the early stages of playing such a character.  An Island Aumaua who comes from a Deadfire raider background, who will be a mixed style of Fighter, and will focus on Ruffian weapons.  Saber and Pistols, primarily.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Crucis

[Lampros]

With Constant Recovery, you might decide to do something crazy like Dangerous Implement.

 

You know, it might just work. I'd test knockdown with ranged weapons first. For when you are ambushed, you have Clear Out.

 

Do Knockdowns work with ranged weapons? That would be an important factor as well.

[Lampros]

 

You don't need abilities to maximize ranged rogues damage though, there are so many ways to constantly keep your enemies afflicted. Not only have casters got countless ways to do so and the cipher can do so every encounter, also you just need to flank an enemy, bang sneak attack until he's dead.

 

While it is true that casters do have a lot of ways to keep enemies afflicted, I'm also noticing that if you're constantly having casters only pay attention to casting afflicting spells to support a rogue's sneak attacks, it seems that they're losing out on casting more damaging spells. 

 

So in the end, is your party more effective or more efficient by having the casters supporting a Rogue, or by having those casters doing what they'd normally do if there wasn't a rogue that needed some "affliction support"?

 

 

I was thinking the same; I think I am going to try out the ranged Fighter now. I want an auto-attack archer, and I failed with the Rogue for a variety of (some unknown) reasons; and I don't want to play a Ranger due to the pet.

[Boeroer]

Pure ranged fighters are not good. Knockdown doesn't work. There are level-ups where you only can choose an ability that doesn't contribute to this playstyle.

 

What works with ranged weapons is Into the Fray, Clear Out. All the other active abilities don't work with ranged weapons. This excludes you from Knockdown, Sundering Blow and most sadly, Charge.

 

The damage bonuses apply and all - but it would be more beneficial to just build a very sturdy ranger, cipher or rogue with Veteran's Recovery. Ciphers do a lot of weapon damage and you'd have the additional powers that you can use.

Also a ranged chanter with Blessed was Wengrith + Sure Handed Ila and focus on invocations would be better.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

 

 

 

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

I don't know about that. Do either of them take a -15 accuracy penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers take a -15 penalty for using melee weapons? That penalty is a pretty nasty hit to any ranger's effectiveness in melee, IMO.

Why do you keep repeating that ? You've already been corrected in another thread. There is no -15 penalty for using melee weapons. There probably was at some point. Don't rely on the outdated wiki.

 

Fighter and Barbarian are literally the worst classes for ranged combat. Even Paladins can do crazy single target damage for a few attacks. A monk can use Dangerous Implement talent, Swift Strikes, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel, maybe Stunning Blow.

I don't constantly re-read every freakin' thread on this forum that I post in. I've seen no such correction, nor have I seen any reason to think otherwise.

 

Ya rangers don't get a -15 in melee dude.

[Lampros]

Pure ranged fighters are not good. Knockdown doesn't work. There are level-ups where you only can choose an ability that doesn't contribute to this playstyle.

 

What works with ranged weapons is Into the Fray, Clear Out. All the other active abilities don't work with ranged weapons. This excludes you from Knockdown, Sundering Blow and most sadly, Charge.

 

The damage bonuses apply and all - but it would be more beneficial to just build a very sturdy ranger, cipher or rogue with Veteran's Recovery. Ciphers do a lot of weapon damage and you'd have the additional powers that you can use.

Also a ranged chanter with Blessed was Wengrith + Sure Handed Ila and focus on invocations would be better.

 

Sundering Blow is melee-only? Darn, that not stated in the skill description (though the Wiki might be out-dated).

 

But I think 25 percent damage add plus Confident Aim (how much does that add - approximately 10 percent?) plus higher Accuracy via Disciplined Barrage will be sufficient for my auto-attack archer needs. And I can make him sort of a hybrid who sometimes switches to melee when things start mobbing my really weak fragile classes - whereas the Rogue could only escape himself, rather than save others.

 

I am going to test him now and see how he compares to the ranged Rogue for the first half or the first quarter of the game - hopefully, the build isn't a dud to the point where I quit before I quit the ranged Rogue on PotD (at level 10).

 

Edit: I realize you can make a Rogue sturdier, but then you'd also dilute the Rogue's DPS or CC ability, too, though. At any rate, let me test. This is one case where I think some of you veterans may underestimate the utility of a Ranged Fighter (Also, it may fit my play-style better - which is not a small consideration, as I generally dislike fragile builds or micro-heavy builds.)

Edited October 2, 2017 by Lampros

[Blades of Vanatar]

Make him an Aumaua and give him 3 Arquebuses. He will still destroy one enemy at the outset of every encounter

[Boeroer]

I do not underestimate a ranged fighter. I tested that concept thoroughly and it's just not good (at least for me).

 

Make sure to take Runner's Wounding Shot.

[Lampros]

I do not underestimate a ranged fighter. I tested that concept thoroughly and it's just not good (at least for me).

 

Make sure to take Runner's Wounding Shot.

 

Yes, we are looking for different things here. I don't mind if the ranged Fighter under-performs a bit DPS-wise

 

And yes, Runner's Wounding Shot will be one of the first things I will take - otherwise I'd have no ranged CC other than Borresaine!

[Boeroer]

What a fighter can do at higher levels is to hit an enemy with Sundering Blow (causes -8 DR), switch to a blunderbuss and then fire. But that's not low micro.

 

I never checked if an implement with Dangerous Implement can do more dps than a war bow. Because you can get the Engwythan Scepter quite early and it has speed. A fighter has Constant Recovery (if he wants it or not) but in this case it could be used to heal the damage Dangerous Implement will do to you. And as always: two damage types are better than pierce damage only.

 

And if you won't use mind control this time you might rethink about using Take the Hit? This will protect your backline immensely. I also looked up Guardian Stance: you can use it with Take the Hit. It can't be used with Defender and Savage Attack - but since you can't use those anyway this might be a good pick.

 

If you use this ranged fighter mainly as support-guy he might actually become useful.

 

Think about it: +10 deflection from the fighter, +DR and hit-to-crit conversion from the paladin, damage cut in half from the fighter again... should result in a very sturdy party. ACC-loss from Guardian Stance can be countered with Disciplined Barrage.

[Lampros]

Make him an Aumaua and give him 3 Arquebuses. He will still destroy one enemy at the outset of every encounter

 

Too much micro - don't ever forget I am a lazy, old man!

 

I considered implements, but I think I will go with Borresaine, as my purpose is CC as much as DPS, and Borresaine is available very early.

 

And yes, I am considering Take the Hit. I will still have Wizard's mind control stuff and Munacra on someone just in case though. But I will see how things play out. I am only at level 4, just done with Maerwald and a bit of Raderic's Hold for cash. So far the damage numbers I see on the Fighter v. ranged Rogue does not look all that different, but fights seem a bit longer. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that the ranged Fighter does not contribute any CC (and won't until Borresaine and Wounding Shot). On the flip-side, he himself is rarely in danger of getting knocked out, even though he draws a lot of fire!

Edited October 3, 2017 by Lampros