Am I the only one that just stopped playing?

[GrinningReaper659]

The game tells you "if you take this quest, you will be with us FOREVA!" 

 

Now, let's say, at this point, you think to yourself, "I have no idea what you guys are like and I want to learn more about the other factions."

 

Isn't the obvious course of action to not take that quest for now, and go do some other stuff and try to learn more about the various factions?

 

After all, it's not hard. You can go up to the Crucibles Commander and talk to them. Their first quest & the role of the Justiciars you can see around the city is enough to show what they're like. People also refer to the Dozens often. The Doemenels are the hardest to find out more about.

 

Why in the world would you make a decision you are told is a final one, when you feel you don't have enough information, and then complain that you didn't know enough about the factions?

 

Why are you still going on about how clearly they signposted the Dozens vs. Knights thing when I have said as much myself multiple times now? I never once said that it wasn't clear that supporting either the Knights or the Dozens would alienate the other group. It was clear, I agree with that and haven't said otherwise. My main issue is not knowing the scope at all. In other words, "if you do anything for us (X) you'll piss off them(Y)" doesn't help me much because I didn't know that I would be at some point forced to choose between X, Y, and Z for the main culmination of the Act II issues. I'm happy to concede the point, though, if you disagree. My main purpose in commenting was that there's more to the confusion than signposting the Knights vs. Dozens thing, which your orignial post suggested was the whole issue.

 

" For example, how was I to know that earning favor with one noble by further antagonizing the Domeonels when I spoiled the burglary wouldn't result in a positive of some sort by gaining myself a non-Domeonel noble ally? "

 

Why would you ever assume that to be the case, when you never even hear about any other noble family? That's a real stretch.

 

It was just speculation, just like thinking that you would ever have to choose between siding with the Domeonels and siding with one of two other groups would be speculation. The point being that none of these things was clearly more likely than any other. It's not as if every person or group you hear of ends up being a possible faction to side with, so to assume it about the nobleman I hadn't heard of before entering Defiance bay or about the Domeonels would have been a stretch.

 

as an aside, the lack o' warning complaints is far too familiar.  is any number o' games where the player gets a warning regarding an inability to return to the current location.  player gets told that once we leave Flambekistan, we may not be able to return, so player should finish up any important business before leaving. nevertheless, is always a few folks who do not take such warnings serious.

 

and for reaper, so you killed crime family agents in a village and a family scion in defiance AND foiled a burglary plot involving the same folks... so you had 3 doemenel quests/tasks at that point.  how many more did you wish?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Obviously, I misunderstood and thought that you were suggesting that you would still get quests from them, which you weren't. My mistake.

[Rhaeg]

I lost interest during my 2nd run through the game. I enjoyed my first run, but still had expected more from this game. There wasn't a single thing that stopped me from playing, but the overall replay value seemed lacking to me, which has many reasons, I guess. Nothing so specific as having to choose a certain faction.

[Gfted1]

I took a break after the next to last Beta and haven't been able to overcome my inertia since. I totally plan on revisiting it as soon as all the patching is done.

[Gromnir]

 

The game tells you "if you take this quest, you will be with us FOREVA!" 

 

Now, let's say, at this point, you think to yourself, "I have no idea what you guys are like and I want to learn more about the other factions."

 

Isn't the obvious course of action to not take that quest for now, and go do some other stuff and try to learn more about the various factions?

 

After all, it's not hard. You can go up to the Crucibles Commander and talk to them. Their first quest & the role of the Justiciars you can see around the city is enough to show what they're like. People also refer to the Dozens often. The Doemenels are the hardest to find out more about.

 

Why in the world would you make a decision you are told is a final one, when you feel you don't have enough information, and then complain that you didn't know enough about the factions?

 

Why are you still going on about how clearly they signposted the Dozens vs. Knights thing when I have said as much myself multiple times now? I never once said that it wasn't clear that supporting either the Knights or the Dozens would alienate the other group. It was clear, I agree with that and haven't said otherwise. My main issue is not knowing the scope at all. In other words, "if you do anything for us (X) you'll piss off them(Y)" doesn't help me much because I didn't know that I would be at some point forced to choose between X, Y, and Z for the main culmination of the Act II issues. I'm happy to concede the point, though, if you disagree. My main purpose in commenting was that there's more to the confusion than signposting the Knights vs. Dozens thing, which your orignial post suggested was the whole issue.

 

" For example, how was I to know that earning favor with one noble by further antagonizing the Domeonels when I spoiled the burglary wouldn't result in a positive of some sort by gaining myself a non-Domeonel noble ally? "

 

Why would you ever assume that to be the case, when you never even hear about any other noble family? That's a real stretch.

 

It was just speculation, just like thinking that you would ever have to choose between siding with the Domeonels and siding with one of two other groups would be speculation. The point being that none of these things was clearly more likely than any other. It's not as if every person or group you hear of ends up being a possible faction to side with, so to assume it about the nobleman I hadn't heard of before entering Defiance bay or about the Domeonels would have been a stretch.

 

as an aside, the lack o' warning complaints is far too familiar.  is any number o' games where the player gets a warning regarding an inability to return to the current location.  player gets told that once we leave Flambekistan, we may not be able to return, so player should finish up any important business before leaving. nevertheless, is always a few folks who do not take such warnings serious.

 

and for reaper, so you killed crime family agents in a village and a family scion in defiance AND foiled a burglary plot involving the same folks... so you had 3 doemenel quests/tasks at that point.  how many more did you wish?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Obviously, I misunderstood and thought that you were suggesting that you would still get quests from them, which you weren't. My mistake.

 

you can, up to a point.  do one or two quests/task against their interests and you can still  get invited to meet the head o' the family... who will reject you.  even so, there is at least one more task available from another doemenel that you can still accept even if the family is attacking you in the streets at night.  and keep in mind that after any one o' your earlier faux pas with the doemenel's, you had an opportunity to do two more such tasks even so.  you sided against them both times.

 

if obsidian had then allowed you to align with the underworld crime organization that you had injured via bloody mayhem on multiple occasions, now that would be noteworthy.

 

freedom has costs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  we weren't particular distraught by the manner in which the faction choices were presented and the way the warning were given.  even so, obsidian does needs be reactive to what players do rather than what Gromnir believes is reasonable.  it appears that more than a few folks were confused by the choice.  if those few is more than just isolated folks, then obsidian does have some easy options to fix.  'pon entering defiance bay you get a scripted encounter with a messenger from l. webb that cryptic warns you, as a new potential player o' significance in defiance bay politics, about aligning with any individual faction? between that and the warning from the faction heads, we suspect the number o' people confused by the significance o' the choice would drop.  

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gromnir

[Prime-Mover]

you can, up to a point.  do one or two quests/task against their interests and you can still  get invited to meet the head o' the family... who will reject you.  even so, there is at least one more task available from another doemenel that you can still accept even if the family is attacking you in the streets at night.  and keep in mind that after any one o' your earlier faux pas with the doemenel's, you had an opportunity to do two more such tasks even so.  you sided against them both times.

 

if obsidian had then allowed you to align with the underworld crime organization that you had injured via bloody mayhem on multiple occasions, now that would be noteworthy.

 

freedom has costs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yeah, that was also a bit wierd. After I had "joined" the rabble faction, the knighty faction were like: We don't want to work with you, but hey, here's some work. Felt wierd. But maybe I'm not the appropriately nuanced kinda guy for this stuff.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[Monte Carlo]

Hmmm interesting how different people read different signposts. When I sided with the goody-goody paladin dudes I sort of took it as a given I was burning bridges from the start, but that might have been a meta-thing with me.

[Gromnir]

Hmmm interesting how different people read different signposts. When I sided with the goody-goody paladin dudes I sort of took it as a given I was burning bridges from the start, but that might have been a meta-thing with me.

we weren't surprised either, but is clear that a number o' seemingly rational folks were taken unawares.  

 

"we weren't particular distraught by the manner in which the faction choices were presented and the way the warning were given.  even so, obsidian does needs be reactive to what players do rather than what Gromnir believes is reasonable.  it appears that more than a few folks were confused by the choice.  if those few is more than just isolated folks, then obsidian does have some easy options to fix.  'pon entering defiance bay you get a scripted encounter with a messenger from l. webb that cryptic warns you, as a new potential player o' significance in defiance bay politics, about aligning with any individual faction? between that and the warning from the faction heads, we suspect the number o' people confused by the significance o' the choice would drop. "

 

people don't always respond the way we expect 'em to.  if enough people is being stymied or frustrated, there is a few minor ways to clarify the significance o' the choice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gromnir

[b0rsuk]

I'm not playing anymore but only until 1.05 comes out and fixes the bug that makes Interrupting Blows work against you. My PC is a monk with Interrupting Blows.

[ShadowStorm]

 

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made.

[GrinningReaper659]

 

Hmmm interesting how different people read different signposts. When I sided with the goody-goody paladin dudes I sort of took it as a given I was burning bridges from the start, but that might have been a meta-thing with me.

we weren't surprised either, but is clear that a number o' seemingly rational folks were taken unawares.  

 

"we weren't particular distraught by the manner in which the faction choices were presented and the way the warning were given.  even so, obsidian does needs be reactive to what players do rather than what Gromnir believes is reasonable.  it appears that more than a few folks were confused by the choice.  if those few is more than just isolated folks, then obsidian does have some easy options to fix.  'pon entering defiance bay you get a scripted encounter with a messenger from l. webb that cryptic warns you, as a new potential player o' significance in defiance bay politics, about aligning with any individual faction? between that and the warning from the faction heads, we suspect the number o' people confused by the significance o' the choice would drop. "

 

people don't always respond the way we expect 'em to.  if enough people is being stymied or frustrated, there is a few minor ways to clarify the significance o' the choice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Maybe upon first talking to a representative of one of the factions at their base, whoever that representative is mentions the fact that there's going to be a big hearing soon. They could mention the groups that will be going at that point, only mentioning the groups that the player will ultimately choose between. So, the dozens guy would say something along the lines of

"We're going to be trying to get the duc to put a stop to those meddling bastards at the animancy hearings. I hear that the Knights of the Crucible and the Doemenels are going to be sending people too."

 

 

Just a thought.

[AncientToaster]

I quit playing in Act 3. The combat was getting tiring, the story wasn't captivating me anymore, and I just lost the desire to finish entirely.

 

I just disliked way more things about this game than I actually liked. Personally, this game is one of the biggest disappointments in recent memory.

[Khalid the bear]

 

you can, up to a point.  do one or two quests/task against their interests and you can still  get invited to meet the head o' the family... who will reject you.  even so, there is at least one more task available from another doemenel that you can still accept even if the family is attacking you in the streets at night.  and keep in mind that after any one o' your earlier faux pas with the doemenel's, you had an opportunity to do two more such tasks even so.  you sided against them both times.

 

 

if obsidian had then allowed you to align with the underworld crime organization that you had injured via bloody mayhem on multiple occasions, now that would be noteworthy.

 

freedom has costs.

 

you can do everything against the Domenels except the Theft thing (and maybe you need to do 'beat him up' quest for their merchant) have a very lov/bad reputation with them, having them send assasins at you, AND still talk to the head of the family AND have him give you the quest, therefore joining witgh the facition that hates you

 

**Not sure if the events have to be in any particular order for this outcome

 

[Bix Copperblast]

Stopped 10 hours in, when I heard v1.05 will introduce some balance changes. The combat is disappointing and I'm hoping the patch will go some way in helping address that.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Bix Copperblast

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made.

 

a choice were made.  you were oblivious to the choice... possibly willful.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NathanH]

I have stopped for a bit, but I will probably return soon. But since I reached Twin Elms my reaction to pretty much every quest has been "meh, I don't have any particular desire to do that".

[Tigranes]

 

 

 

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made.

 

a choice were made.  you were oblivious to the choice... possibly willful.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It certainly is making a choice when someone says "REMEMBER OTHER FACTIONS WONT WORK WITH YOU" and you say "OK!"

[Sable Phoenix]

I read everything, literally everything in the game that's presented before me, not just all the dialog, every book, every bestiary entry, everything.

 

I had no idea I was joining the Crucible Knights when I started working with them.  I just kept going on what felt like a sidequest thread. 

I'd already accepted one quest from the Dozens to get some family armor back.  In the process of going to complete that one, I also took up jobs from inside the Crucible Keep.  They unspooled very quickly until I was fighting Animats in the castle, after which I took the documents I'd found to the person who could prove them a forgery, with the expected consequences.  Took the armor back, got the reward.  Turns out the Knights were apparently fine with that, though, while I'm now persona-non-grata with the Dozens.

 

I only realized I'd been locked out of two Doemenel quests while fighting my way through their mansion and getting two "Quest Failed" banners, but I thought that was because I'd already fought them in the warehouse.  It wasn't till reading this thread that I find out it's because of working for the Knights.

 

 

 

Now you're saying I've actually joined the Crucible Knights as what, a member?  I don't recall ever agreeing to that, or getting any sort of ceremony or anything indicating that was now the case.  And I know it's certainly not because of my reading comprehension.

 

I haven't really seen it impact the game so far, though.  It's all very muddy.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sable Phoenix

[Ink Blot]

I read everything, literally everything in the game that's presented before me, not just all the dialog, every book, every bestiary entry, everything.

 

I had no idea I was joining the Crucible Knights when I started working with them.  I just kept going on what felt like a sidequest thread. 

I'd already accepted one quest from the Dozens to get some family armor back.  In the process of going to complete that one, I also took up jobs from inside the Crucible Keep.  They unspooled very quickly until I was fighting Animats in the castle, after which I took the documents I'd found to the person who could prove them a forgery, with the expected consequences.  Took the armor back, got the reward.  Turns out the Knights were apparently fine with that, though, while I'm now persona-non-grata with the Dozens.

 

I only realized I'd been locked out of two Doemenel quests while fighting my way through their mansion and getting two "Quest Failed" banners, but I thought that was because I'd already fought them in the warehouse.  It wasn't till reading this thread that I find out it's because of working for the Knights.

 

 

 

Now you're saying I've actually joined the Crucible Knights as what, a member?  I don't recall ever agreeing to that, or getting any sort of ceremony or anything indicating that was now the case.  And I know it's certainly not because of my reading comprehension.

 

I haven't really seen it impact the game so far, though.  It's all very muddy.

Sounds pretty similar to how I went about it. I think I recall the "Hey, if you do this quest, you'll piss off the other guys" comment but, again, I assumed there would be provision go back on your agreement and go talk to the other factions to see if they had a more interesting offer if you didn't actually complete that quest.

 

Oddly, there's an interaction towards the end of the game where you can actually do just this. (Can't go into detail, as I'm not sure how to do spoiler tags).

[Tigranes]

After you finish the first Knights quest, when you speak to get the second quest, they warn you. 

[Sven_]

Pretty much, unless something was screwed up in the translations.

 

 

That may be not the game going out of character and asking and warning and demanding you straight to consider, like:

 

Will you help them? If you accept, all the others factions will hate you.

 

With the two options being:

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

 

But that's pretty straight foward to me.

 

 

 

 

 

I stand corrected. Apologies.

 

 

 

Not a problem, I think my general tone, which was a bit sarcastic, suggested as much, so it's myself to blame too. I was just amazed because this seemed so blatantly obvious to me what's going to happen next (the quest that followed basically involved slaughtering opposing faction's people too). I've seen that this was brought up when the game was released and thus it may be these "issues": https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72460-choosing-a-faction-in-defiance-bay/

 

1) There aren't that hugely many points in PoE that basically lock you out of content; as some of the guys says, he didn't expect there to be that kind of (faction) choice in the game at this point

2) In many other games, choices you make are windows dressing and don't actually influence much of anything to begin with (Skyblivion and its popular ilk, where you basically can do as you please and nothing in the world, huge as it may be, reacts to any of it -- and MMORPG's too)

3) Even if you've never played those, you may be one of the completionists and accept basically anything by default and have been used to do so until this point deep into Act 2 which didn't "hurt" you out of much previously

4) The general message you get by the factions upon embarking on their quests may be too subtle (I dunno, see above)

5) Just clicking "yes" in what is basically the game asking you whether you really want to align with this faction (to the anger of the others) may be seen as just "accepting another quest" despite the pretty telling options (I need to think about this!!!); that is only upon actually embarking on it one may expect it to have a real consequence for any of the factions and your eventual alignment towards them

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sven_

[Yonjuro]

Pretty much, unless something was screwed up in the translations.

 

 

 

 

 What is probably throwing some people off about the above is that "after this" could mean after completing the quest. Maybe it should be reworded to something like  "if you accept this task, I expect they will learn of your association with us...." 

 

 (BTW, for those of you who are part way through and inadvertently joined the wrong faction, you might find that the choice is less far reaching than it seems if you decide to continue the game.)

[Sven_]

 

Pretty much, unless something was screwed up in the translations.

 

 

 

 

 What is probably throwing some people off about the above is that "after this" could mean after completing the quest. Maybe it should be reworded to something like  "if you accept this task, I expect they will learn of your association with us...." 

 

 

 

Should arguably more of a problem with the "completionists" who suck each subsequent map try in the pursue of quests, loot and XP. I.e., the Dozens are the first faction you'll meet that way as they are located in the area you'll arive in at Defiance Bay and you may simply complete all of their quests without a) getting to know the others and b) having been around the place hugely much in general. Depending on your playthrough, it is pretty obvious that none of the factions and those that are aligned with them can do as they wish and are not being observed. Doing the first Knight's quest anyway in particular, on which you can embark on without aligning towards them (Spoilers therein) pretty much establishes the "intel" that's going on by having one of the main quest characters who's not actually a member of the Knights as such being... taken care of by an opposing faction:

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Built_to_Last

 

 

The lead-up to the above yes/no choice (depending on your companions, they'll comment on this rather tellingly too).

 

 

 

Not trying to solely defend the game, maybe the factions in general and the eventual choice you're going to make should be introduced better -- or more obvious. But even without having say Aloth around, at this point it was hugely obvious to me what's going to happen next. At the very least those who already had a clear picture of how they're going to join should have steered away from making such a decision such as accepting such telling (re)quests of other factions, though.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sven_

[Yonjuro]

 

..

 What is probably throwing some people off about the above is that "after this" could mean after completing the quest. Maybe it should be reworded to something like  "if you accept this task, I expect they will learn of your association with us...." 

 

 

Should arguably more of a problem with the "completionists" who suck each subsequent map try in the pursue of quests, loot and XP. ....

 

 I suppose it could be. In my game, it seemed that the Crucible Knights' plan to buy stolen souls to animate their peacekeeping army was a purely evil (oh, and stupid, did I mention stupid?) idea and the Doemenels were dead so, it was an easy decision to join the Dozens.

 

 However, it seems like a lot of people were surprised that accepting a quest (rather than completing it) locked them into a faction.

[ModernModron]

 

 

 

 

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made.

 

a choice were made.  you were oblivious to the choice... possibly willful.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It certainly is making a choice when someone says "REMEMBER OTHER FACTIONS WONT WORK WITH YOU" and you say "OK!"

 

 

You keep saying that, but that never actually happens in game.  They say that other factions will be "angry" at you, but they never flat out state that you will be locked out of a future game mechanic just by accepting the quest.  Those aren't quite the same thing, especially for more casual gamers that don't have finely tuned meta-game senses.

 

On top of that, as others have pointed out, the actual implementation of choosing a faction is rather clunky.  It's entirely possible to accept one of the quests before you even realize there is a power struggle in the city, much less know you'll eventually need to pick sides in said struggle to continue the main plot.  Even if the mechanic were perfectly telegraphed, that would still be a bad way to frame a 'choice' for the player.

 

You'd think there would at least be an option to backstab the faction whose quest you accepted before you complete it, but nope, the decision to accept the quest is totally binding.

Edited April 29, 2015 by ModernModron

[Silverfox]

I got tired of dieing. I generally like to play a game on easy the first time through to (1) experience the story without having to micro-manage fights, and (2) see if I like the game. Games that I have liked I have gone through on multiple types of characters on various difficulty settings. Life is too short for bad books, movies or games.

 

When you are in or near the starting zone, it should be difficult if not impossible for your character to die (regardless of what class you are playing). Nope, not this game. Having to do a full rest (sleep) after every fight. Bad design.

 

Developers should be really concerned when people don't finish their games. If for no other reason than it affects the value of their brand.