Freedom in Canada

[obyknven]

Canadians try ban ethnic-Ukrainian musician because of his anti-Junta sentences.
https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa

 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/04/19/free-speech-rachmaninov-and-twitter-posts-how-the-ukrainian-war-invaded-torontos-stage/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

If you have heard of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra (TSO) for the first time this month, it was likely for non-musical reasons. The orchestra created a minor PR-storm of the unfortunate kind when they relieved American-Ukrainian pianist Valentina Lisitsa from performing in two upcoming concerts on April 8th and April 9th. The reason for this unusual move: Complaints had been filed with the TSO – apparently as far back as December 2014 – with “concern over… deeply offensive and intolerant tweets” that Miss Lisitsa had sent out on her twitter account. They compiled Ms. Lisitsa’s Tweets into a seven-page document, and asked Ms. Lisitsa to explain them.
 
The woman in question responded – according to the orchestra – thus: “Those are my words. That’s my right.”

 
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/music/2015/04/08/tso-sets-a-dangerous-precedent-menon.html

By cancelling the performance of renowned pianist Valentina Lisitsa, the Toronto Symphony Orchestra has made a mockery of the arts in this city.
 
When we think about music and censorship today — China banning Bjork, Egypt banning Madonna, Malaysia banning Beyonce — we usually get transported to places that seem light years behind us in terms of freedom and expression

[Malcador]

Also - http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2015/04/09/my-bloody-valentina/

Yeah this was some BS, really. She posted random crap on Twitter, big deal. But a lot of Ukrainians in Canada that are largely behind the current Kiev government. So I guess there was the threat of them protesting the TSO to get rid of this "wrong" person, I believe there were similar things expressed against a Russian musician in the US a while ago.    Also, consider that our government is sucking up hard as an election is drawing near, and those Ukrainian votes are useful (especially in Toronto for the Tories).

It's not as if she is going to give some anti-Kiev speech in the middle of her performance, some argue she is using her stance as a musician to promote her opinion - but then no one of note can really have a free opinion, heh.

TSO really should have just let her play and let the people protest, I assume a patron of theirs decided to squeeze their balls using their donations (the TSO is hurting of late), as well.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Malcador

[HoonDing]

cute pic

[JadedWolf]

From Wikipedia:

 

"In April 2015 the TSO cancelled performance of pianist Valentina Lisitsa. It accused her of breaching section 319(2) of the Criminal Code of Canada and insinuated that she would face trouble with Canada's immigration authorities and made threats against her if she revealed the reasons for the cancellation in public. The reasoning behind these actions was that Valentina had publicly criticised the Neo Faschist government of Ukraine, the country of her birth."

 

 

... Hmm, I guess someone has been editing that particular Wikipedia page.

 

Tell us, Oby, was it you? You can tell us.

 

Bruce won't judge. He never does.

[BruceVC]

From Wikipedia:

 

"In April 2015 the TSO cancelled performance of pianist Valentina Lisitsa. It accused her of breaching section 319(2) of the Criminal Code of Canada and insinuated that she would face trouble with Canada's immigration authorities and made threats against her if she revealed the reasons for the cancellation in public. The reasoning behind these actions was that Valentina had publicly criticised the Neo Faschist government of Ukraine, the country of her birth."

 

 

... Hmm, I guess someone has been editing that particular Wikipedia page.

 

Tell us, Oby, was it you? You can tell us.

 

Bruce won't judge. He never does.

 

Thats true, I never judge...oh wait......

[BruceVC]

Any country banning anything ukraine related is great and should be applauded. Nuke ukraine.

 

There..there Sharp_one ..okay I'll take the hint and save you having to keep asking the same question

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "  

 

[Nonek]

Rather disappointed that no one has posted "Blame Canada" yet.

[cirdanx]

TSO really should have just let her play and let the people protest, I assume a patron of theirs decided to squeeze their balls using their donations (the TSO is hurting of late), as well.

 

Agree, this was a bull**** move and the protest would have been laughable small anyway. From the Canadians i have seen talking about that subject, they are not in favor of the current anti-russian trend. But then...Canadas goverment is do deep in Washingtons ass, it isn´t funny anymore. Not to mention they are sending "military advisers" to Kiev, along with US and Uk troops, now thats "productive"....

[Valsuelm]

Any country banning anything ukraine related is great and should be applauded. Nuke ukraine.

Ukraine has hot women.

 

Nuking Ukraine would be bad for you, unless you'd like nuclear fallout floating your way.

 

Ukraine > Canada as it has at least a few citizens willing to fight for their freedom, and few willing to bow to a queen.

 

All that said, Valentina is of Polish and Russian ethnicity.

 

And yea... the TSO's move here was disgusting.

[cirdanx]

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "  

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

 

I´m curious, do you expect your goverment to finally distance itself from the junta or still support them? From an outside view it looks that is forming some resistance against ties with Kiev with a high ranking General denouncing Kiev and distancing himself and the female president candidate speaking out for warmer ties with Moscow and with Korwin-Mikke saying out loud they trained the Maidan snipers along with US? Or is this more show?

[obyknven]

Meanwhile in Canada

[cirdanx]

 

I´m curious, do you expect your goverment to finally distance itself from the junta or still support them? From an outside view it looks that is forming some resistance against ties with Kiev with a high ranking General denouncing Kiev and distancing himself and the female president candidate speaking out for warmer ties with Moscow and with Korwin-Mikke saying out loud they trained the Maidan snipers along with US? Or is this more show?

I definitely expect the government along with president to sever all ties with kiev. Sanctions and closing the borders is definitely on the table.

Of course not with current party and a joke of a president in charge. But we will have new president and new government this year.

 

 

I share your opinion Looking forward to the elections then, hopefully someone reasonable will win. Not sure if Ogorek would be the right person, she seems pretty smart, but i don´t live in Poland so i have no idea

[obyknven]

 

I´m curious, do you expect your goverment to finally distance itself from the junta or still support them? From an outside view it looks that is forming some resistance against ties with Kiev with a high ranking General denouncing Kiev and distancing himself and the female president candidate speaking out for warmer ties with Moscow and with Korwin-Mikke saying out loud they trained the Maidan snipers along with US? Or is this more show?

I definitely expect the government along with president to sever all ties with kiev. Sanctions and closing the borders is definitely on the table.

Of course not with current party and a joke of a president in charge. But we will have new president and new government this year.

 

   

[Volourn]

"From the Kanadians I've seen spekaing..."

 

L0L Don't make stuff up. You know nothing.

 

Anyways, as far as the issue goes,  censorship is wrong. The orchestra is wrong. But that's expected when dealing with nazis which many Kanadians are.

[cirdanx]

"From the Kanadians I've seen spekaing..."

 

L0L Don't make stuff up. You know nothing.

 

Anyways, as far as the issue goes,  censorship is wrong. The orchestra is wrong. But that's expected when dealing with nazis which many Kanadians are.

 

Not sure if you mean my comment. But surprise, there are enough Canadians who have internet and post on blogs and news sites

 

Many Canadians are Nazis? o.O Oh well if you say so.

[cirdanx]

 

 

 

I´m curious, do you expect your goverment to finally distance itself from the junta or still support them? From an outside view it looks that is forming some resistance against ties with Kiev with a high ranking General denouncing Kiev and distancing himself and the female president candidate speaking out for warmer ties with Moscow and with Korwin-Mikke saying out loud they trained the Maidan snipers along with US? Or is this more show?

I definitely expect the government along with president to sever all ties with kiev. Sanctions and closing the borders is definitely on the table.

Of course not with current party and a joke of a president in charge. But we will have new president and new government this year.

I share your opinion Looking forward to the elections then, hopefully someone reasonable will win. Not sure if Ogorek would be the right person, she seems pretty smart, but i don´t live in Poland so i have no idea

I have no idea what to think of Ogorek. She is backed by post communist party (SLD)but she has almost the same program economically as poster far right party lead by Korwin Mikke. So much that he actually invited mrs Ogorek to his party after SLD stopped financing her.

 

 

Well as i said i don´t have that much insight into Polish politics inside the country, obviously i´m more concerned with the foreign politics. But i´m definitely curious how the new goverment/president will end up doing.

[Namutree]

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "  

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

Man, that sucks. When did this happen? 

[Valsuelm]

 

But that's expected when dealing with nazis which many Kanadians almost all ukrainians are.

 

Fixed for you 

 

 

Yea.... for whatever your average Canadian is, or most Ukranians are, they are no more Nazis that most everyone else in the western world is.

 

 

 

Which is to say, the mentality of what gave rise to the National Socialist German Workers' Party is quite common in the western world, and on this forum.

 

 

[213374U]

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "  

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

 

You are about a year late to the party, I'm afraid. In addition, from what I've seen, you are in the minority in that opinion, as a Pole.

 

Good luck trying to discuss facts with the usual suspects here, though. You'll need it.

[213374U]

 

 

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

 

You are about a year late to the party, I'm afraid. In addition, from what I've seen, you are in the minority in that opinion, as a Pole.

 

Good luck trying to discuss facts with the usual suspects here, though. You'll need it.

 

Year late?

Ukrainian parliament act I'm talking ago was passed on 09.04.2015. I'm also not a minority about being against ukrainian nazis.

You seem to know as much on the subject as the FBI director when he accused Poland and Hungary on participation in Holocaust last week.

 

 

I was referring to the year-old debate about the Ukrainian government being neo-Nazi sympathizers. This went right over your head, it seems, though I'm not really surprised. What's truly flabbergasting is that not even with a link to an old thread where those things are discussed at length, you managed to gather as much.

 

Hey, maybe next year.

[Tort]

Which is to say, the mentality of what gave rise to the National Socialist German Workers' Party is quite common in the western world, and on this forum.

What the particulars of that 'western mentality' you speak off?

 

Also isn't Neo-Nazism is quite popular in Russia, in fact they established a youth group to oppose the growth of 'fascism' within. Although its rather nationalistic and intolerant group, and their definition of "fascist" seem to refer to enemies of Russia (Given the centrality of the great patriotic war(ww2) in Russian identity, fighting Nazism/fascism taps deeply held emotions and is a guaranteed tactic to solidify support, hence Russian narrative for Ukraine)

 

 

 

P.s. yet another thread by oby about the decadent ways of the west..

Edited April 22, 2015 by Tort

[JadedWolf]

Meowwww.

 

Bit of a cat fight in here.

[RedCat]

 

I´m curious, do you expect your goverment to finally distance itself from the junta or still support them? From an outside view it looks that is forming some resistance against ties with Kiev with a high ranking General denouncing Kiev and distancing himself and the female president candidate speaking out for warmer ties with Moscow and with Korwin-Mikke saying out loud they trained the Maidan snipers along with US? Or is this more show?

I definitely expect the government along with president to sever all ties with kiev. Sanctions and closing the borders is definitely on the table.

Of course not with current party and a joke of a president in charge. But we will have new president and new government this year.

 

I do not think its enough to just change the government. Poland as most of the countries in the world lies in Washington sphere of influence mostly through economic ties(IMF, WTO) but military as well(NATO). Such ties are not easy to break, and the process of redirecting your economy towards independance wont be painless. So new government, even if it would be extremely anti-US oriented, would need to offer a new convincing strategy of developement, which would compensate the economic and diplomatic loss of turning away from US. That would require immence amount of support from people as well as suitable international political situation. But i should note that Poland probably the only country in EU that have the best chances to do it. To keep your national currency and not replace it with Euro was a very smart move. Also a stategic position between Russia and Germany gives a great opportunity to be intermediary and reap the benefits,

[RedCat]

 

But that's expected when dealing with nazis which many Kanadians almost all ukrainians are.

 

Fixed for you 

 

Actually quite small amount of ukranians are nazis. But the problem with nazism is that if not contained it will eventually spread like a plague and infect all people. When in Febraury 2014 maidan coup happened, core force was members of Right Sector - ukranian nazi movement, trained at military camps sponsored by Washington They were provoking militia during at first peacefull standoff at maidan square. Used fear tactics against those who opposed maidan, and some government officials.After maidan events, they mostly were involved in criminal activity - robbing, kidnapping, racket, buisness raiding and so on.  That was mainly due to the factor that government institutions were still in paralized state. At some point  internal fights inside the organization started to decide who gets most of the pie. They proved to be ineffective in military operation against Novorossia. So eventually they became more of a liability for new Ukranian government. It became clear that new government cant suppress Donbass uprising (i think around summer 2014). It was nesessary to make new government more solid, more powerful to deal with it. Some, Right Sector leaders where assasinated.  Massive propaganda campaign started. You can notice the drastic change in ukranian blogsphere started at around june 2014 i think. Before that campaign people were mostly wary about the future, scared and confused, but now you can see extreme anti-russian and anti-Putin rhetoric dominates. Common people whent from "we should talk to Donbass" to "we must bomb Donbass to the ground" in less then two month. A lot of russians who have relatives in Ukraine (and i mean really alot), saying that it is impossible to have normal conversation with their relatives now, amount of blind hate towards Russia is bewildering, its like people were brainwashed.  Now however, brainwashing started to loose its effectiveness. But back to the Nazis.

There were various players fighting between themselves, Poroshenko, Avakov, Kolomoisky, Yatsenuk,  Yarosh. They all wanted to have a larger share. Kolomoisky was even on the verge of declaring independence for Dnepropetrovsk he was controling. But to keep Ukraine as an effective anti-russian instrument, Washington decided to solidify its government, and they choose to support Poroshenko. Yarosh - Right Sector leader, was made an adviser of current commander in chief of Ukrain Armed Forces, and Right Sector volonteers were intagrated into ministry of defence chain of command.

So now nazism in Ukraine shifted its focus from Right Sector activists, with its svastika and Hitler portraits, to more general, Ukraine-oriented nazism, stating that https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OUN-B these guys were equally fighting against Nazi germany as well as Soviets.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

 

You are about a year late to the party, I'm afraid. In addition, from what I've seen, you are in the minority in that opinion, as a Pole.

 

Good luck trying to discuss facts with the usual suspects here, though. You'll need it.

 

Year late?

Ukrainian parliament act I'm talking ago was passed on 09.04.2015. I'm also not a minority about being against ukrainian nazis.

You seem to know as much on the subject as the FBI director when he accused Poland and Hungary on participation in Holocaust last week.

 

 

I was referring to the year-old debate about the Ukrainian government being neo-Nazi sympathizers. This went right over your head, it seems, though I'm not really surprised. What's truly flabbergasting is that not even with a link to an old thread where those things are discussed at length, you managed to gather as much.

 

Hey, maybe next year.

 

 

 

 

"why do you hate the Ukrainian government, you use to support them.... what did they do now "  

 

Oh not much.

They just made animals that slaughtered thousands of Polish (including some of my family) and Jewish people their national heroes.

 

 

You are about a year late to the party, I'm afraid. In addition, from what I've seen, you are in the minority in that opinion, as a Pole.

 

Good luck trying to discuss facts with the usual suspects here, though. You'll need it.

 

 

 

 

Year late?

Ukrainian parliament act I'm talking ago was passed on 09.04.2015. I'm also not a minority about being against ukrainian nazis.

You seem to know as much on the subject as the FBI director when he accused Poland and Hungary on participation in Holocaust last week.

 

 

I was referring to the year-old debate about the Ukrainian government being neo-Nazi sympathizers. This went right over your head, it seems, though I'm not really surprised. What's truly flabbergasting is that not even with a link to an old thread where those things are discussed at length, you managed to gather as much.

 

Hey, maybe next year.

 

 

Well the view that the Ukrainian government are Neo-nazi's was never taken seriously when you raised it because its just hyperbole...and the reality hasn't changed now so why should we get concerned or feel the need to urgently dispute it ?

 

I'm sure there are some Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian government  ...like there are in many governments. But the suggestion that the Ukrainian government is aligned ideologically with a fascist movement is just preposterous for a number of reasons ..mainly that the Ukraine's primary financial backers happen to be Western countries and they just wouldn't  support a Neo-Nazi government ..that should be explanation enough