Sabre > Battle axe all day every day

[peddroelm]

they went quite a distance trying to add different whistles and bells to each weapon type to differentiate each other .. Battle axes as original designed  (with hit resolution as multiplier) had their niche as "the crit" weapons .. Right now they (BAs) are virtually the same as sabres in every way only, they do less damage .. That goes against the perceived design goal of making each weapon group "unique/different" gameplay/mechanics wise (I'm not talking animations/color/sparkly effects)  ..

 

Ignoring the unique models, currently Battle axes are worse than sabres in the vast variety of reasonable applications  ( turning the hit resolution -0.5,0,0.5 additive , even if the ingame info still calls them "multipliers" was a big nerf to those weapon types )   ...Comparing with sabres because they are both locked into slashing damage type with no extra bonuses to compensate..

 

that +0.5 bonus to crit "multiplier" translates into +  ((11+16)/2)*0.5 = 6.75 average damage on crits ..

 

Sabres will thus outdamage battle axes EVEN ON CRITICAL HITS once the sum of damage multipliers goes above  6.75 / (( 13+19-11-16)/2) = 2.7 ..

 

Rogues (best crit melee race - reckless attack accuracy bonus, you need to use them on a high accuracy class to get those crits)  can get this at level 3 ..

1+ 0.15 (fine weapons) + 0.3 (20 might) + 0.2 (reckless) + 0.5 (sneak) + 0.5 (crit) ..

 

Past level 2 sabre can outdamage battle axe in all situations on Rogue .. (sneak is not always on but with good micro it should be close) ..

 

Oh - and there is at least a unique sabre with +0.5 crit "multiplier"  (salt on the wound and set in on fire)

 

Battle axes need some love .. Yes investing in Weapon Focus Knight also grants swords for flexibility (assuming dual wield) , but how many weapons can you realistically afford to buy/enchant in a game melee focused team (without console/cheats) ?

Edited April 20, 2015 by peddroelm

[Elerond]

but how many weapons can you realistically afford to buy/enchant in a game melee focused team (without console/cheats) ?

 

Any single one, you can even buy every single item in the game and enchant all of them, okay not really because you run out ingredients, but you have enough money to do it, although this may have changed as they changed how much merchants that give you discount pay for items that you sell them.  But for example I had over 300k coins in one point of the game after I had upgraded stronghold to max, and then I bought all the ingredients that I found and I still had over 150k, and then I used them to make potions, foods, scrolls and enchant my weapons and armors until I run out of ingredients and I still had over 50k coins. Biggest problem is usually that you run out quite fast some ingredients that let you do superb enchantments.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

You only really run out of superb ingredients. If not your garden and other stronghold options generate enough at least for all weapomns and armors.

[b0rsuk]

Are you trying this in single weapon mode ? Batlleaxes gain the most from one weapon wield, because their special only triggers on criticals and you want very high accuracy.

[Luckmann]

Are you trying this in single weapon mode ? Batlleaxes gain the most from one weapon wield, because their special only triggers on criticals and you want very high accuracy.

 

And I actually hate that. I think that one-handing Battle Axes just feels off.

[peddroelm]

Are you trying this in single weapon mode ? Batlleaxes gain the most from one weapon wield, because their special only triggers on criticals and you want very high accuracy.

what's that got to do with anything ? single or dual wield ? They have same attack speed and accuracy , and sabres do more damage per swing , even on critical hits even from act 1 on the classes that can actually build crit chance .

[VaultDuke]

Sabres are better on rogues than battleaxes? Shocking. Never seen that before in a rpg.

 

Where's the break even point for a barbarian carnage attack though?

[peddroelm]

Sabres are better on rogues than battleaxes? Shocking. Never seen that before in a rpg.

 

Where's the break even point for a barbarian carnage attack though?

you need to make up for the 0.5 + 0.2 damage mods rouges get (sneak // reckless) .. 

 

Upping weapon quality 0.15 or 0.3 , savage attack 0.2 , extra might from frenzy, blooded 0.25 (if they ever fix it) , etc .. At some point in the game , sabre >> BA in all situations (bad design) ..

[VaultDuke]

and you need to make up for how ever high the carnage damage reduction is... which is my whole point: not sure the sabre is better in any case, and certainly not on every build throughout the most part of the game.

 

is it in principle the better weapon? yes. considering there are places where the axe still shines, especially in some builds and when taking the weapon focus and the other weapons that go with that specialization into account, I hardly see the problem as even remotely as big as you try to make it be. would the axe benefit from increasing the multiplier to +70% or +100%? sure. is the weapon a complete disaster no one would ever use? no.

[KDubya]

and you need to make up for how ever high the carnage damage reduction is... which is my whole point: not sure the sabre is better in any case, and certainly not on every build throughout the most part of the game.

 

is it in principle the better weapon? yes. considering there are places where the axe still shines, especially in some builds and when taking the weapon focus and the other weapons that go with that specialization into account, I hardly see the problem as even remotely as big as you try to make it be. would the axe benefit from increasing the multiplier to +70% or +100%? sure. is the weapon a complete disaster no one would ever use? no.

 

 

Where does an axe do better than a sabre?

 

Both only do slashing.

 

The sabre has a bigger base damage 13-19 avg = 16 compared to axe at 11-16 avg 13.5

 

A rogue with 20 might, reckless assault, savage attack with a superb weapon gets 1 + 0.5 sneak + 0.3 might + 0.20 reckless + 0.20 savage + 0.45 superb for total of 2.65. Average sabre does 42.4, axe does 35.775, or approximately 18.5% more damage. A normal sabre attack does 34.4 on average compared to a battle axe sneak attack doing 35.775.

 

Crits would get to 3.15 for sabre for 50.4 and 3.65 for axe for 49.275. Even on a crit a sabre is ahead due to the larger base damage.

[b0rsuk]

It occured to me that perhaps not all weapons in the game must necessarily be equally good. Perhaps they're just meant to be roughly equal, so that players can choose their favorite based on flavor and personal preference. Maybe the absolute goal of the game isn't highest DPS. But many people seem to be playing for DPS highscores. Not saying one of these weapons shouldn't be changed, though.

 

Also, another way to balance things is to... change sabres.

[peddroelm]

It occured to me that perhaps not all weapons in the game must necessarily be equally good. Perhaps they're just meant to be roughly equal, so that players can choose their favorite based on flavor and personal preference. Maybe the absolute goal of the game isn't highest DPS. But many people seem to be playing for DPS highscores. Not saying one of these weapons shouldn't be changed, though.

 

Also, another way to balance things is to... change sabres.

they went quite a distance trying to add different whistles and bells to each weapon type to differentiate each other .. Battle axes as original designed  (with hit resolution as multiplier) had their niche as "the crit" weapons .. Right now they (BAs) are virtually the same as sabres in every way only, they do less damage .. That goes against the perceived design goal of making each weapon group "unique/different" gameplay/mechanics wise (I'm not talking animations/color/sparkly effects)  ..

Edited April 20, 2015 by peddroelm

[gkathellar]

 

It occured to me that perhaps not all weapons in the game must necessarily be equally good. Perhaps they're just meant to be roughly equal, so that players can choose their favorite based on flavor and personal preference. Maybe the absolute goal of the game isn't highest DPS. But many people seem to be playing for DPS highscores. Not saying one of these weapons shouldn't be changed, though.

 

Also, another way to balance things is to... change sabres.

they went quite a distance trying to add different whistles and bells to each weapon type to differentiate each other .. Battle axes as original designed  (with hit resolution as multiplier) had their niche as "the crit" weapons .. Right now they (BAs) are virtually the same as sabres in every way only, they do less damage .. That goes against the perceived design goal of making each weapon group "unique/different" gameplay/mechanics wise (I'm not talking animations/color/sparkly effects)  ..

 

 

Honestly, given the way crits work, they should probably have their stats switched, so that battle axes perform better with large shields, and sabers perform better with 1h fighting.

[dukefx]

Average base weapon damage with no multipliers other than crit

BA: 13.5 x2 =  27

Sab: 16 x1.5= 24

 

Now lets hoard a lot of damage multipliers, for lets say a total of x2

BA: 13.5 x2 x2 = 54

Sab: 16x x2 x1.5 = 48

 

Now lets add The Merciless Hand and a +0.5 crit damage enchantment

BA: 13.5 x2 x2.8 = 75.6

Sab: 16 x2 x2.3 = 73.6

 

I don't see your problem.

[peddroelm]

Average base weapon damage with no multipliers other than crit

BA: 13.5 x2 =  27

Sab: 16 x1.5= 24

 

Now lets hoard a lot of damage multipliers, for lets say a total of x2

BA: 13.5 x2 x2 = 54

Sab: 16x x2 x1.5 = 48

 

Now lets add The Merciless Hand and a +0.5 crit damage enchantment

BA: 13.5 x2 x2.8 = 75.6

Sab: 16 x2 x2.3 = 73.6

 

I don't see your problem.

Because you don't understand how game calculates weapon damage per hit and also fail to read even the OP where it mentions criticals/hit resolution are not multipliers (even if misleadingly called so ingame from earlier stages of development) .. They are treated additively as any other damage modifier ..  We're talking about pillars of eternity v 1.04 in this thread..

Edited April 20, 2015 by peddroelm

[b0rsuk]

But weapon groups are quite different. I'm probably going to make a thread about it sooner or later.

 

Peasant (Hatchet, Spear, Hunting Bow, Quarterstaff, unarmed) - fast weak ranged, reaching crushing two-hander, interesting choice of 1-handed weapons)

Knight (Sword, Battleaxe, Morning Star, Crossbow) - choice of 1-handed, no reaching weapon, middle ground ranged (actually crossbow DPS is absolutely terrible across DR but shh...). Battleaxe is the more damaging one, sword the more flexible one.

Noble (Rapier, Dagger, Scepter, Rod, Mace) - a big choice of "mystical" ranged weapons, big choice of 1-handed, no two-handers, no reaching. The accurate weapon is weak.

Ruffian (Club, Stiletto, Sabre, Blunderbuss, Pistol) - huge choice of 1-handed: sabre is the most damaging one, club the most accurate, stiletto the most armor penetrating one. Shooting options are inaccurate but good both against softies and tough targets. No two-hander, no reaching !

Soldier (Pike, Greatsword, Warhammer, Arquebus, Arbalest) - Choice of two-handers, flexible 1-hander, two big ranged weapons. Choose this if you need to compensate for something.

Adventurer (Flail, Estoc, Pollaxe, War Bow, Wand) - choice of 2-handers but no reaching, choice of ranged...

 

I still find the choice much more interesting than D&D, where most weapons are either 1d6 or 2d4. And that's all.

 

Consider the accurate weapon of each group: spear, rapier, club, dagger, flail, NONE for knight. Spear has the highest base damage, rapier is fast and piercing, club fast and crushing, dagger fast and slashing. Actually Knight might use a slight buff here, I'd give crossbow +5 accuracy on the grounds that it has the benefit of flat trajectory like arbalest, but is not as cumbersome.

 

I'd focus on balancing each weapon within its group. If you are "one weapon type for the entire game" type of person, I can't help you. Although I would appreciate if more base weapon stats were used for attacks, for example you could factor not just base damage, but the +5 accuracy bonus into some special attacks.

 

Knight has a much better choice of crushing weapons than Ruffian, and that's something! Crushing deals extra damage against many opponents. Knights get to choose from warhammers and morningstar. Ruffians have to do with a club.

[peddroelm]

.. If you are "one weapon type for the entire game" type of person, I can't help you...

I use a main weapon group for each char and carry backups for specific encounters where the main weapon simply isn't design to work well against ..But main focus and economic investment (upgrade from shop//enchants ) will go towards the main weapon group.. Backup weapon groups are built from scavenging loot for the most part, since they see much less action(return of investment) than the main weapon group ..

 

Sadly this game is sort of designed against using "the proper weapon for the occasion" by limiting accessible weapon groups (grrr) .. Unless heavily meta-gaming - next is that "surprise" fight where blunt sucks and piercing works really well , let me change gear because I'm not allowed to do it combat ..

Edited April 20, 2015 by peddroelm

[Bubbles]

Trying to balance the Flail with the Estoc would be quite a challenge.

[b0rsuk]

OP: It's hard to make sense of your numbers unless you know where exactly does each number come from. This weakens your argument.

 

 

Honestly, given the way crits work, they should probably have their stats switched, so that battle axes perform better with large shields, and sabers perform better with 1h fighting.

 

 

A very sensible suggestion. Less weapons are affected that way, otherwise you'd risk creating new imbalances.

 

re: estoc vs flail

Not all encounters are solved with raw damage. In hindsight I should have taken Adventurer on my PC druid, because flails are great for inaccurate characters and shield users. Some things you just can't hit very well. Also, flail is simply better if all you care about is inflicting a status effect - especially that you can opt to wield a flail without a shield, then it becomes REALLY hard to graze.

 

A bigger flaw of this combat system could be DR. This is why estoc is so popular, and fast weapons avoided. At the very least, more monsters should come with 0 DR. I'd start by making all spirits 0 DR.

[dukefx]

 

Average base weapon damage with no multipliers other than crit

BA: 13.5 x2 =  27

Sab: 16 x1.5= 24

 

Now lets hoard a lot of damage multipliers, for lets say a total of x2

BA: 13.5 x2 x2 = 54

Sab: 16x x2 x1.5 = 48

 

Now lets add The Merciless Hand and a +0.5 crit damage enchantment

BA: 13.5 x2 x2.8 = 75.6

Sab: 16 x2 x2.3 = 73.6

 

I don't see your problem.

Because you don't understand how game calculates weapon damage per hit and also fail to read even the OP where it mentions criticals/hit resolution are not multipliers (even if misleadingly called so ingame from earlier stages of development) .. They are treated additively as any other damage modifier ..  We're talking about pillars of eternity v 1.04 in this thread..

 

Not everything is additive. There are a few actual multipliers. Looking at duration crits/grazes it's (base duration+int bonus+whatever) x1.5 or x0.5. That's fking easy to test, so why shouldn't damage work the same way? It's hard to test damage because of min and max damage, but nothing has ever disproved me. Whatever I got during my tests was always within range.

[peddroelm]

OP: It's hard to make sense of your numbers unless you know where exactly does each number come from. This weakens your argument.

Only numbers used in are  11-16 (base BA damage range), 13-19 (base sabre damage range ) , the difference between their average values, 50% of the average  base BA damage (to see how much flat damage that +0.5 to crit "multiplier" really adds ( 6.75) regardless of any and every other factor in play  )..

 

And then how much additive damage mods it would take to edge that 6.75 damage on sabres (answer waaay too few) ..

[peddroelm]

Not everything is additive.

yes - lash damage is calculated of total weapon damage.. But the hit resolution (-0.5,0,0.5) are additive, that's why you can Graze for hundreds of damage and then crit for like 10 extra damage  when you stack enough damage modifiers ...

 

Easy to test at high damage multiplier values ...  I'm working on getting rid of the damage roll RNG for accurate testing (via mod/memory editor )  but so far so luck ..

Edited April 20, 2015 by peddroelm

[dukefx]

That'd be great. Would testing make so much easier.

Here's a crit on Interdiction. Says 9.5 secs dazed (base: 7 secs). Durance crits for 14.2 http://i.imgur.com/EGuCkcg.jpg

7x1.35=9.45 (base duration + INT bonus) Ofc this is still additive

9.45x1.5=14.175 But this is a multiplier. If there were +crit duration multipliers then those would also be additive among themselves.

 

Maybe a fixed damage spell with the merciless hand (which I think should be global and not only affect weapon damage, but no idea as of now) could enlighten us.

[redneckdevil]

Are they both the same attack speed? Meaning is one quicker to get off hits than the other?

[gkathellar]

Are they both the same attack speed? Meaning is one quicker to get off hits than the other?

 

Yes to your first question, no to your second.