Building PC paladin and Poll: Skill choice

[Omnicron]

Hi everyone

 

Just wondering from people with more experience which Paladins have some of the more useful abilities for the game. Some seem more equal than others.

 

For example, the Goldpact Knights and the Darcozzi seem to have abilities with very situational applicability, whereas the Shieldbearers and Kind Wayfarers seem to have abilities that will help your party in every combat.

 

I am not sure how good abilities that apply an affect on Kill are (Stange Mercy and Black Path), I am assuming that means the paladin has the be the one dealing the killing blow, which you do not have control over, so skills that interact with their abilities are maybe more consistent in battle?  For that reason I think Shieldbearers have access to some interesting abilities that are dependable, but not sure how much that deflection helps? In that sense perhaps Kind Wayfarer Sword and Shepard Ability is worth the pick? 

 

Due to lack of experience on what abilities here are most useful I am unsure which path would help me with PotD. 

 

Also, with Pallegina I am curently running Zealous Focus for the crits with my rouge. Not sure I need to ever swap it out on Hard. What auras have people found most useful? Zealous Endurance is probably what I would go for and leave it there?

 

Last little thing on Paladin abilties, and also answering a question about Pallegina, I need to choose between Liberating Exhortation, Sworn Enemy, Deprive the Unworthy, and Reviving Exhortation. Any of those worth it?

[mazeltov]

the paladin has to be the one dealing the killing blow, which you do not have control over

 

Au contraire. Others in the party set up the kill, then your Pally swoops in and claims the prize.

 

Re: Gina, she already has ZFocus, which is good, so probably best to just use that since another Aura would cost a talent slot. For certain types of parties that run risky melee characters, ZCharge is pretty good, at double the radius of other Auras, a ton of movespeed and +15 Disengage. Combo with a cape of Withdrawal for +30 vs Disengage and suddenly dudes can move around the fight.

 

Out of the talents you listed, pick Reviving Exhort.

[CriticalFailure]

Re: Gina, she already has ZFocus

Not if you get her early. She was level 4 in my last playthrough (my PC was 3) and she had FoD, LoH, Intense Flames and WF: Soldier.

 

Personally, I prefer choosing my paladin order based on flavour and RP rather than the special abilities. This doesn't really answer your question and some are probably mechanically better than others, but you may end up following a code or playing a personality you don't enjoy, which is... well, not enjoyable.

[Kaigen42]

Depends on whether you're focusing on damage or defenses with your Paladin. Kind Wayfarer talents are nice, but only if your Paladin has the damage and attack rate to land killing blows reliably, which can be hard to do if you're walking around in plate mail swinging a hatchet. Darcozzi talents, on the other hand, fit well with a defensive Paladin that's there to take hits and support the party. Inspiring Liberation is a big accuracy buff, and can be used even if your ally doesn't have a debuff they need suppressed.

 

Keep in mind also that some talents can help you get through the rough early game, but become marginal later on. I like Shielding Touch on a tanky paladin because that extra deflection combined with a heal does a great job of keeping someone being focused alive, but it's a drop in the bucket by act 3. Likewise, the healing from The Sword and the Shepard is handy early on, but I barely notice it any more in my current game. I'm not saying don't take those talents, because they help you get through the challenging growing period, but make sure you won't be disappointed later on when TS&TS is doing nothing but keeping you from taking Savage Attack.

 

On the whole, I agree with CriticalFailure; the talents aren't worth having to play a character in a way you dislike. Even if the Bleak Walkers had amazing talents, I still wouldn't want to walk around being a jerk to everyone in the game.

[Crucis]

 

the paladin has to be the one dealing the killing blow, which you do not have control over

 

Au contraire. Others in the party set up the kill, then your Pally swoops in and claims the prize.

 

Re: Gina, she already has ZFocus, which is good, so probably best to just use that since another Aura would cost a talent slot. For certain types of parties that run risky melee characters, ZCharge is pretty good, at double the radius of other Auras, a ton of movespeed and +15 Disengage. Combo with a cape of Withdrawal for +30 vs Disengage and suddenly dudes can move around the fight.

 

Out of the talents you listed, pick Reviving Exhort.

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me.  You have to get the target nearly dead, then stop attacking said target and wait for the paladin to get the killing blow.  And heaven forbid that your paladin misses a few times before getting that killing blow.

 

Sorry, it seems to me that tying on-kill abilities to on-crits instead makes this a lot less of a hassle.

 

[MadDemiurg]

Most unique paladin talents are kinda meh imo. The one I like the most is +10 accuracy buff on liberating exhortation for Darcozzi that stacks with pretty much anything. It's a great buff to toss on your important damage dealer or crowd controller, which both boosts his efficiency nicely and prevents him from getting CC'd. Fire shield is nice against shades if you pick it early but goes out of fashion really fast, so overall I would advise against it.

 

Kind Wayfarers and Shieldbearers have some more or less decent stuff as well.

[mazeltov]

Not if you get her early.

 

I was running with the fact that he mentioned his Gina was already using it.

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

[Kaylon]

IMHO they all suck, there are better talents to take for a paladin.

[eubatham]

IMHO they all suck, there are better talents to take for a paladin.

 

Well, sure, pick up Zealous Aura along with the +5% crit talent, but the rest of unique Paladin abilities are pretty crap. Some of the order abilities are alright and are definitely worth picking up.

[Gromnir]

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

 

it's still a boring class. you have an extreme limited number o' potential activated abilities by the time you hit level 6 or even 8, which is a significant portion o' the game.  priests have dozens o' spells to choose from, so is no contest between priests and paladins regarding which is more versatile and requires more player involvement.  chanters gets increasing number o' chants (that can be combined creatively and programmed for up to four variations) and invocations. if we take lay on hands and flames of devotion, we might have one other paladin ability to be activating by the mid levels o' the game.  boring. try and make sure you get a kill-shot approx every 15 seconds?  that's it?  particular compared to the other support characters, the paladin is low-maintenance and potential boring. hell, compared to the other tanky characters, paladins is boring.  

 

paladins is boring.  am not saying that poe paladin boredom is a bad thing as many folks don't like micromanagement and paladins make for a nice alternative to the obsessive pause spamming Gromnir needs for priests and most casters. even so, try and convince us that paladins is less boring 'cause o' the per kill triggers on defensive or heal abilities is not convincing us that we have been all wrong about paladins.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Omnicron]

Hmm... thanks for all the responses. Has me thinking. Is one of the main problems with Paladin abilities that they do not scale with level hence leading to the drop in usefulness later on? I mean the heal for example looks good, but if it does not scale with level then it becomes really meh. Same with every other ability. And I take it the Flames of Devotion and any other related skill only works on the base damage of the weapon? That also seems to suggest a good start which begins to lose its potency once you begin upgrading weapons. 

[Gromnir]

Hmm... thanks for all the responses. Has me thinking. Is one of the main problems with Paladin abilities that they do not scale with level hence leading to the drop in usefulness later on? I mean the heal for example looks good, but if it does not scale with level then it becomes really meh. Same with every other ability. And I take it the Flames of Devotion and any other related skill only works on the base damage of the weapon? That also seems to suggest a good start which begins to lose its potency once you begin upgrading weapons. 

am not certain we agree. given how zealous focus can stack with a number o' priest spells, that +6 accuracy is useful all throughout the game, and actual can become more useful later as you develop your synergy with a priest companion.  dracozzi liberating exhortation?  it includes a +10 accuracy boost for 30 seconds you can use 2x per encounter?  that is perhaps a bit too useful compared to other paladin orders, but am not seeing diminishing returns. lay on hands is misunderstood and typical heals for more than is realized and more than the tooltip suggests.  we found much use for lay on hands as a single target 'heal' all throughout the game.  hastening exhortation is a later game ability, so the boost to attack speed for ~ 45 seconds from a high int paladin is understandable useful late in game.  deprive the unworthy is, for boss battles and particular paladin builds, more significant as you level 'cause your foes is gonna be increasing likely to have buffs active.  etc.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Crucis]

 

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

 

it's still a boring class. you have an extreme limited number o' potential activated abilities by the time you hit level 6 or even 8, which is a significant portion o' the game.  priests have dozens o' spells to choose from, so is no contest between priests and paladins regarding which is more versatile and requires more player involvement.  chanters gets increasing number o' chants (that can be combined creatively and programmed for up to four variations) and invocations. if we take lay on hands and flames of devotion, we might have one other paladin ability to be activating by the mid levels o' the game.  boring. try and make sure you get a kill-shot approx every 15 seconds?  that's it?  particular compared to the other support characters, the paladin is low-maintenance and potential boring. hell, compared to the other tanky characters, paladins is boring.  

 

paladins is boring.  am not saying that poe paladin boredom is a bad thing as many folks don't like micromanagement and paladins make for a nice alternative to the obsessive pause spamming Gromnir needs for priests and most casters. even so, try and convince us that paladins is less boring 'cause o' the per kill triggers on defensive or heal abilities is not convincing us that we have been all wrong about paladins.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Gromnir,

 

Is not matter of not likin' micromanagement.  Is a matter of likin' to have at least 1 or 2 buddies as don't require constant attention so dat me can  babysit spellchuckers, who be requirin' most attention.

 

Me likes bein' able to just point Eder in direction of enemy and leavin' him to do his business without having to tell him what needs doing ever few seconds.  Same be goin' for noble birdie paladin Pallegine.  As long as Eder or Pallgine be swingin' weapon at enemy and not a charmed buddy, me is happy.  Me be havin' more time to tell whining priest of flaming whore or bipolar mage or ever-grieving cipher to be doin' what me wants dem to be doin'.

 

Ha!  Dis talkin' like Gromnir be tricky, but good fun!

Edited April 19, 2015 by Crucis

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

 

it's still a boring class. you have an extreme limited number o' potential activated abilities by the time you hit level 6 or even 8, which is a significant portion o' the game.  priests have dozens o' spells to choose from, so is no contest between priests and paladins regarding which is more versatile and requires more player involvement.  chanters gets increasing number o' chants (that can be combined creatively and programmed for up to four variations) and invocations. if we take lay on hands and flames of devotion, we might have one other paladin ability to be activating by the mid levels o' the game.  boring. try and make sure you get a kill-shot approx every 15 seconds?  that's it?  particular compared to the other support characters, the paladin is low-maintenance and potential boring. hell, compared to the other tanky characters, paladins is boring.  

 

paladins is boring.  am not saying that poe paladin boredom is a bad thing as many folks don't like micromanagement and paladins make for a nice alternative to the obsessive pause spamming Gromnir needs for priests and most casters. even so, try and convince us that paladins is less boring 'cause o' the per kill triggers on defensive or heal abilities is not convincing us that we have been all wrong about paladins.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Gromnir,

 

Is not matter of not likin' micromanagement.  Is a matter of likin' to have at least 1 or 2 buddies as don't require constant attention so dat me can pay babysit spellchuckers, who be requirin' most attention.

 

Me likes bein' able to just point Eder in direction of enemy and leavin' him to do his business without having to tell him what needs doing ever few seconds.  Same be goin' for noble birdie paladin Pallegine.  As long as Eder or Pallgine be swingin' weapon at enemy and not a charmed buddy, me is happy.  Me be havin' more time to tell whining priest of flaming whore or bipolar mage or ever-grieving cipher to be doin' what me wants dem to be doin'.

 

Ha!  Dis talkin' like Gromnir be tricky, but good fun!

 

...

 

you pretty much announced how you don't like micromanagement after saying it ain't a matter o' you disliking micromanagement.

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[mazeltov]

People will make up their own minds about what constitutes boring gameplay, but I can say that my (tank) Paladin had a wider range of active abilities to use, and the ones available took more thought to use, than the Rogue I also had along with the party. Yet I don't observe the same level of derriere distress in this subforum about Rogue being a boring class with one or two core actives and a couple of other situational ones.

 

"Rogues is boring." "Priests is boring ('cause out of 50 versatile spells we uses a standard rotation of five or six of them)." "Chanters is boring ('cause we uses Ila Knocked Her Arrow constant, and summon invocation after 20 seconds)." And so on. This line of thought isn't productive. Paladins can be played in more or less boring ways, according to player taste. Stationary tanks with a self heal, or frenetic, roaming, Zealous Charging, estoc wielding, scroll-using, last-hitting supporters and damage dealers all in one. Or some combination. Potential is there, but different players take advantage of that potential to different degrees.

 

Is an elementary point.

[Omnicron]

 

Hmm... thanks for all the responses. Has me thinking. Is one of the main problems with Paladin abilities that they do not scale with level hence leading to the drop in usefulness later on? I mean the heal for example looks good, but if it does not scale with level then it becomes really meh. Same with every other ability. And I take it the Flames of Devotion and any other related skill only works on the base damage of the weapon? That also seems to suggest a good start which begins to lose its potency once you begin upgrading weapons. 

am not certain we agree. given how zealous focus can stack with a number o' priest spells, that +6 accuracy is useful all throughout the game, and actual can become more useful later as you develop your synergy with a priest companion.  dracozzi liberating exhortation?  it includes a +10 accuracy boost for 30 seconds you can use 2x per encounter?  that is perhaps a bit too useful compared to other paladin orders, but am not seeing diminishing returns. lay on hands is misunderstood and typical heals for more than is realized and more than the tooltip suggests.  we found much use for lay on hands as a single target 'heal' all throughout the game.  hastening exhortation is a later game ability, so the boost to attack speed for ~ 45 seconds from a high int paladin is understandable useful late in game.  deprive the unworthy is, for boss battles and particular paladin builds, more significant as you level 'cause your foes is gonna be increasing likely to have buffs active.  etc.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Not sure I know how lay on Hands Heal is calculated, is it by might only or also level? That seems ok since it is per encounter which balances with the priest being per rest (although my party is usually exhausted by the time I am out of heal spells)

 

With the Flames of devotion, it seems to encourage 2h weapons to make the most of it since it works with base weapon damage  as far as I understand, and so is much more effective early on than when you get a fully upgraded weapon and still get the same damage bonus from it as you did at the start? Also as noted in another thread, would be better if it did not dissapear on a miss.

 

I agree with what you said about Dracozi, but that is why I think that order might be favoured.

 

Kind Wayfarer definitely seem to need level scaling in their talents to be useful

 

Not sure about shieldbearers, seems once can get a lot of deflection easily from other sources. So even if it scaled it seems more useful early on when you do not have the other sources.

 

Goldpact seems situational with the charm thing and I do not know how strong the DoT burn is.

 

Bleak walker also do not need scaling on their abilities. You basically double your weapon base damages with FoD if you connect and frightened cant scale.

 

So overall ya, seems each has its own problems but it is more connected with the larger meta problems of Paladins and each ability can have a place depending on your party strategy. Hmmm....

Edited April 19, 2015 by Omnicron

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

claim that a rogue can also be boring does not diminish the fact that the paladin has a very limited number o' abilities that is typical only having situational use to boot.  in actuality, we do find ranged rogues to be pretty darn dull.  melee rogues need far more attention as their glass cannon nature makes them vulnerable.  rogues is most effective when using sneak attacks, we must needs always be aware o' what enemies is debuffed enough to make them attractive targets o' opportunity.  move 'round the battlefield to get the right target takes some consideration.  ranged rogue does feel a bit dull even if it does require the same synergy as melee rogues.  paladins' 15 seconds between pew-pew?  uhm.  ok.  rogue abilities is always useful.  don't need wait for a fellow party member to maybe be poisoned or knocked-out or somesuch.

 

sure, boring is a subjective feel kinda issue, but it is a fact that paladins have few active abilities and those abilities may be only situational useful. double-whammy.

 

oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[gkathellar]

Stay far, far away from the trigger-on-kill abilities. They're bad. Don't use them.

 

If you can stand to pick the "Clever" and "Passionate" conversation choices, Fires of Darcozzi Palace is pretty great. Otherwise, order doesn't matter too much - unless you've got a bunch of other tanks, in which case Shieldbearer is alright.

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

 

it's still a boring class. you have an extreme limited number o' potential activated abilities by the time you hit level 6 or even 8, which is a significant portion o' the game.  priests have dozens o' spells to choose from, so is no contest between priests and paladins regarding which is more versatile and requires more player involvement.  chanters gets increasing number o' chants (that can be combined creatively and programmed for up to four variations) and invocations. if we take lay on hands and flames of devotion, we might have one other paladin ability to be activating by the mid levels o' the game.  boring. try and make sure you get a kill-shot approx every 15 seconds?  that's it?  particular compared to the other support characters, the paladin is low-maintenance and potential boring. hell, compared to the other tanky characters, paladins is boring.  

 

paladins is boring.  am not saying that poe paladin boredom is a bad thing as many folks don't like micromanagement and paladins make for a nice alternative to the obsessive pause spamming Gromnir needs for priests and most casters. even so, try and convince us that paladins is less boring 'cause o' the per kill triggers on defensive or heal abilities is not convincing us that we have been all wrong about paladins.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Gromnir,

 

Is not matter of not likin' micromanagement.  Is a matter of likin' to have at least 1 or 2 buddies as don't require constant attention so dat me can pay babysit spellchuckers, who be requirin' most attention.

 

Me likes bein' able to just point Eder in direction of enemy and leavin' him to do his business without having to tell him what needs doing ever few seconds.  Same be goin' for noble birdie paladin Pallegine.  As long as Eder or Pallgine be swingin' weapon at enemy and not a charmed buddy, me is happy.  Me be havin' more time to tell whining priest of flaming whore or bipolar mage or ever-grieving cipher to be doin' what me wants dem to be doin'.

 

Ha!  Dis talkin' like Gromnir be tricky, but good fun!

 

...

 

you pretty much announced how you don't like micromanagement after saying it ain't a matter o' you disliking micromanagement.

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Methinks you missed my point.  I don't mind some micromanagement.  But I don't really want to have to micromanage all 6 characters every second of every battle.  I like having one or two characters who will generally function capably without needing a babysitter every couple of seconds.  This allows me to pay more attention to the spellcasters who are almost by definition micromanagement hogs.  For example, I won't say that a wizard has to be casting spells at every possible opportunity.  Their magical implements with that minor AoE are a nice way for them to do something useful while saving spells.  But it is important to keep a close eye on the situation to decide when you do need to get the wizard chucking his spells, or any of the other spellcasters.  And this seems easier to do without having to tell Eder what to do every other second.

 

In theory, I "could" micromanage all 6 characters 100% of the time.  But I'd personally find that a bit tedious.  I guess that I like being able to let some of the characters go with the flow, as long as they're not being stupid, rather than micromanage their every little move.

 

I guess that it's just a matter of taste and style. 

[Crucis]

Stay far, far away from the trigger-on-kill abilities. They're bad. Don't use them.

 

If you can stand to pick the "Clever" and "Passionate" conversation choices, Fires of Darcozzi Palace is pretty great. Otherwise, order doesn't matter too much - unless you've got a bunch of other tanks, in which case Shieldbearer is alright.

 

Heck, nothing says that one has to choose any of the Order specific talents.    

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

 

 

This sounds like too much micromanagement to me. 

 

Many people probably feel the same way. On the other hand, lots of people have complained on the forums that Paladin is a "boring, low maintenance auto attack class," implying those people want more opportunities to micromanage. Working with the rest of the party to set up carefully timed last hits is an alternative, more active way to play the class.

 

it's still a boring class. you have an extreme limited number o' potential activated abilities by the time you hit level 6 or even 8, which is a significant portion o' the game.  priests have dozens o' spells to choose from, so is no contest between priests and paladins regarding which is more versatile and requires more player involvement.  chanters gets increasing number o' chants (that can be combined creatively and programmed for up to four variations) and invocations. if we take lay on hands and flames of devotion, we might have one other paladin ability to be activating by the mid levels o' the game.  boring. try and make sure you get a kill-shot approx every 15 seconds?  that's it?  particular compared to the other support characters, the paladin is low-maintenance and potential boring. hell, compared to the other tanky characters, paladins is boring.  

 

paladins is boring.  am not saying that poe paladin boredom is a bad thing as many folks don't like micromanagement and paladins make for a nice alternative to the obsessive pause spamming Gromnir needs for priests and most casters. even so, try and convince us that paladins is less boring 'cause o' the per kill triggers on defensive or heal abilities is not convincing us that we have been all wrong about paladins.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Gromnir,

 

Is not matter of not likin' micromanagement.  Is a matter of likin' to have at least 1 or 2 buddies as don't require constant attention so dat me can pay babysit spellchuckers, who be requirin' most attention.

 

Me likes bein' able to just point Eder in direction of enemy and leavin' him to do his business without having to tell him what needs doing ever few seconds.  Same be goin' for noble birdie paladin Pallegine.  As long as Eder or Pallgine be swingin' weapon at enemy and not a charmed buddy, me is happy.  Me be havin' more time to tell whining priest of flaming whore or bipolar mage or ever-grieving cipher to be doin' what me wants dem to be doin'.

 

Ha!  Dis talkin' like Gromnir be tricky, but good fun!

 

...

 

you pretty much announced how you don't like micromanagement after saying it ain't a matter o' you disliking micromanagement.

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Methinks you missed my point.  

 

nope.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[gkathellar]

 

Stay far, far away from the trigger-on-kill abilities. They're bad. Don't use them.

 

If you can stand to pick the "Clever" and "Passionate" conversation choices, Fires of Darcozzi Palace is pretty great. Otherwise, order doesn't matter too much - unless you've got a bunch of other tanks, in which case Shieldbearer is alright.

 

Heck, nothing says that one has to choose any of the Order specific talents.    

 

 

Exactly. You should choose your Order based on how you intend to roleplay, unless there's a Talent that you're really committed to taking - and since most of the Order talents are bad, you probably shouldn't be.

[mazeltov]

rogues is most effective when using sneak attacks, we must needs always be aware o' what enemies is debuffed enough to make them attractive targets o' opportunity.  move 'round the battlefield to get the right target takes some consideration.

 

"paladins is most effective when using killing blows, we must needs always be aware o' what enemies is unhealthy enough to make them attractive targets o' opportunity.  move 'round the battlefield to get the right target takes some consideration."

 

All non-caster classes have few active abilities, of which this few a significant portion is situational. Those abilities also tend to be usable more frequently, on an encounter-by-encounter basis, than the per-rest spells of versatile casters. At least, that was the presumed intention behind limiting spells to per rest. Is a quirk of poor implementation that caster spells are effectively per encounter, if the user is so inclined.

 

There do exist certain snowflake classes which possess alternative methods o' action economy, but they is in the distinct minority.

[Crucis]

 

rogues is most effective when using sneak attacks, we must needs always be aware o' what enemies is debuffed enough to make them attractive targets o' opportunity.  move 'round the battlefield to get the right target takes some consideration.

 

"paladins is most effective when using killing blows, we must needs always be aware o' what enemies is unhealthy enough to make them attractive targets o' opportunity.  move 'round the battlefield to get the right target takes some consideration."

 

All non-caster classes have few active abilities, of which this few a significant portion is situational. Those abilities also tend to be usable more frequently, on an encounter-by-encounter basis, than the per-rest spells of versatile casters. At least, that was the presumed intention behind limiting spells to per rest. Is a quirk of poor implementation that caster spells are effectively per encounter, if the user is so inclined.

 

There do exist certain snowflake classes which possess alternative methods o' action economy, but they is in the distinct minority.

 

 

I think that you're being a bit contrarian here.

 

With a little bit of micromanagement teamwork, a party's spellcasters can create situations for a rogue to get sneak attack chances, by simply casting certain known spells.  OTOH, trying to set up killing blows can be hard because you don't really know how many END an enemy has left.  The best you can do is try go get them to "near death" without accidentally delivering the killing blow and then ignoring that target.  That seems like a LOT more work than having a wizard cast a simple blinding spell to get up a target for rogue sneak attacks.

 

[mazeltov]

With a little bit of micromanagement teamwork, a party's spellcasters can create situations for a rogue to get sneak attack chances, by simply casting certain known spells.  OTOH, trying to set up killing blows can be hard because you don't really know how many END an enemy has left.  The best you can do is try go get them to "near death" without accidentally delivering the killing blow and then ignoring that target.  That seems like a LOT more work than having a wizard cast a simple blinding spell to get up a target for rogue sneak attacks.

 

As far as the main thrust is that Rogues are generally easier to play and easier to realize the potential of than Paladins, we are in agreement. This implies that to the extent a killing blow using Paladin is desired, more, and more effective, micromanagement has to be done. It is more work, and probably for not much more payoff, depending on how badly your party composition needs the extra healing, or Defense augmentation, etc.. That said, a micromanagement heavy style is available for Paladin players who are able and willing to use it.