Are Paladins really not that bad?

[Elerond]

 

Paladin's end game in my opinion could benefit from boost, early game they are one of the strongest classes in my opinion. They can take punch, they can give punch and their auras give nice bonuses. In end game they can take punch, they still can give punch, but not as fine as in early game, their auras are still good, but they are far from what other support classes offer and their exhortations are low in numbers and not necessary strong enough.

 

Like for example Chanter gets The Silver Knights' Shields Broke Both Arrow and Blade in level 9, it gives +10 deflection to everybody in the chant area, Paladin gets Reinforcing Exhortation, which is single target 2x per encounter +15 deflection buff for 20 seconds. Paladin can give bonus bit faster than what chanter can, but chanter's bonus comes from passive aura that gives bonus to themselves also, where paladin's comes from active ability that can't be used to themselves. So in my opinion paladin's exhortation should be much stronger than Chanter's phrase, like for example it should give +20 or even +30 to deflection (because then it would give better bonus than priest's Shields for the Faithful which is friendly AoE that give +25 deflection for 30 seconds, which priest get their hands on on level 9, although they can cast in only twice per rest, but as mentioned it is AoE) for 30 to 60 seconds.

 

I also think that Hastening Exhortation should be once per encounter ability, instead of 3 per rest as it now, because it is 11th level ability, so even though 1.2x attack speed is quite good it isn't that powerful anymore in that level especially when it is single target ability.

 

I also think that paladins should get 10th or 12th level talent option that gives them ability have two aura's at same time.

 

And I think that they should get couple more exhortations where they can choose from so that they get bit more flexibility in how they can support party.

 

Earlygame pallys are indeed quite good, since when your priest has like 5 spells per rest auras do not look bad at all. Their support doesn't scale into the lategame at all though (while their tankyness does quite admirably well). As for "packing a punch" I'm having hard time naming a class with lower damage potential than paladin (but probably that's ok).

 

 

Paladins have OK accuracy, only fighters, rogues, rangers and monks have higher, and paladins get flames of devotion in level 1 and zealous focus on level 3, which make them quite able to give punch in early game, but in mid game they start to lose it and in end game they start to stay behind, but they can still do decent amount damage if they can fulfill other roles in party like support-tanking, so if their support capabilities are boosted then they would find easier their place in end game parties, as then they would be ok in support ok in tanking and not useless in dps.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Paladin's end game in my opinion could benefit from boost, early game they are one of the strongest classes in my opinion. They can take punch, they can give punch and their auras give nice bonuses. In end game they can take punch, they still can give punch, but not as fine as in early game, their auras are still good, but they are far from what other support classes offer and their exhortations are low in numbers and not necessary strong enough.

 

Like for example Chanter gets The Silver Knights' Shields Broke Both Arrow and Blade in level 9, it gives +10 deflection to everybody in the chant area, Paladin gets Reinforcing Exhortation, which is single target 2x per encounter +15 deflection buff for 20 seconds. Paladin can give bonus bit faster than what chanter can, but chanter's bonus comes from passive aura that gives bonus to themselves also, where paladin's comes from active ability that can't be used to themselves. So in my opinion paladin's exhortation should be much stronger than Chanter's phrase, like for example it should give +20 or even +30 to deflection (because then it would give better bonus than priest's Shields for the Faithful which is friendly AoE that give +25 deflection for 30 seconds, which priest get their hands on on level 9, although they can cast in only twice per rest, but as mentioned it is AoE) for 30 to 60 seconds.

 

I also think that Hastening Exhortation should be once per encounter ability, instead of 3 per rest as it now, because it is 11th level ability, so even though 1.2x attack speed is quite good it isn't that powerful anymore in that level especially when it is single target ability.

 

I also think that paladins should get 10th or 12th level talent option that gives them ability have two aura's at same time.

 

And I think that they should get couple more exhortations where they can choose from so that they get bit more flexibility in how they can support party.

 

Earlygame pallys are indeed quite good, since when your priest has like 5 spells per rest auras do not look bad at all. Their support doesn't scale into the lategame at all though (while their tankyness does quite admirably well). As for "packing a punch" I'm having hard time naming a class with lower damage potential than paladin (but probably that's ok).

 

 

Paladins have OK accuracy, only fighters, rogues, rangers and monks have higher, and paladins get flames of devotion in level 1 and zealous focus on level 3, which make them quite able to give punch in early game, but in mid game they start to lose it and in end game they start to stay behind, but they can still do decent amount damage if they can fulfill other roles in party like support-tanking, so if their support capabilities are boosted then they would find easier their place in end game parties, as then they would be ok in support ok in tanking and not useless in dps.

 

Technically most all classes (except for chanters and barbarians I think) have 30 base accuracy with their "main" attacks, the "main" attacks just happen to be spells for spellcasters. They are not that far behind on DPS vs some classes, but they have almost 0 DPS abilities (FOD which is 2 enhanced weapon hits per encounter, so nothing spectacular, and Sworn enemy, which is per rest and would be much better if pallys were better at dealing damage in the first place), so I'd say literally every other class has more abilities for dealing damage. Which is ok, since they are a tank/support class. Improving the support part would indeed make them more attractive for a party slot.

[eubatham]

Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.

 

I respecced my paladin without it to see what the other aura radius was... If I wanted to make a class that selfishly buffed themselves, I would've made a wizard who at least brought the CC and can get the same deflection/health/higher DR on demand as needed.  Easier fights, the aura is unnecessary, in hard fights it only saves a priest or chanter one cast (least for Zealous Endurance/Charge).

 

Most people aren't arguing the Paladin is not "bad" but they're definitely not "good" in the current meta.  It basically boils down to:  

 

• Paladins don't "suck" but their abilities bring very little to want them in a group.
• They need bug fixes and stacking.
• Aura ranges are unreasonably small.
• Many of the Order specific talents are lame due to limited use or impact on the group.
• Faith and conviction bonuses for NPCs

In a bigger sense, the paladin has nothing to do but "tank" hence why it does seem decent at the role  But I get the feeling despite the faith and conviction bonus on my wizard play through, that the easy fights dont need it, and the harder fights its all about buffs or food or prep anyway, so the paladin is kind of just there.

 

Not sure if the same is true for the other aura's, but save/loading in certain areas will cause your aura's (or at least zealous aura's) to permanently increase in size. I'm quite sure it's somewhere in Twin Oaks or the wilderness areas right before it.

 

About Paladins vs Chanters & Priests, I think the core of the issue is that Paladins are forced to compete with these classes. Almost every time you need to pick a class ability, the only option is to take a supportive ability that'll go head to head with one of the other two classes. You simply don't have a choice but to overlap, to then be outclassed, as a Paladin. The Paladin needs other ways to grow, ways that'll allow it to differentiate itself from the other support classes. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by eubatham

[taek]

You can get way more reach though.

When i had my pala in a group with maxed IN it reched 4 meters, also theres boots who enlarge the aura.

 

I'm not going to max INT on my tank to give a few more people 6 accuracy.

 

There are small auras in the game worth it, like the Priest 2nd level spell. +3 Might + 7 Resolve is worth staying close, it's +10 stat points. And Priests naturally have a high INT anyway.

 

To ask a tank to max INT, it needs to be very valuable.

Edited April 26, 2015 by taek

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Based on normal mode. I don't see how the Paladin out performs the fighter at anything related to the front line. And it can't compete with the support classes either. Its weird hybrid and i dont see how it works well. DnD Paladin had clerical spells, turn undead, plus usually anti magic or anti undead features, or if dark paladin fear like effects.

 

A fighter doesn't even need a shield. It can dual wield or go 2 handed and out damage a paladin negating the need for MAX Def because its killing enemies way quicker. Plus 2 weapon talent cancels out the only negative from fighter's defender talent.

 

If you are setting up your Paladin to be a meat shield and max deflect they cannot compete with the Fighter in damage output. And to be effective the Paladin really needs many attributes high. That has always been the problem with a Paladin even in DnD.

 

Honeslty think Paladins should have had bonuses againt either Vessels or Spirits. The Fighter can get high deflect without even trying while the Paladin has to waste way to many talents on defense or use a shield. And if a fighter needs more Deflect for a specific battle then you just change weapon slots to one with a shield. But the Fighter just doesn't need MAX Deflection because they can absorb damage. Its just to easy to get boosts to regen for your fighter and max Might helps it.

 

Fighter needs to blow 2 talents on defense. Defender and Wary Defender that's it. Paladin, Probably needs cautious attack, hold the line, sword and shield, greater deflection, faith and conviction 2 talents, and the talent that negates opposite conviction if you aren't paying attention to your choices.

 

While that fighter can then focus on speed and offense damage talents.

[Crescent Hawk]

I can respect Obsidian idea of going for a Marshall, Warlord D&D feel, but it just does not work, they are my favourite class in rpgs and the fact they are so mediocre in POE really saddens me. Its not easy to balance a RTWP game, and I feel they would have made a better game if it was turn based with this type of class. I will play this subpar fighter minimizing his weaknesses ( min dex and int, dont care about auras) and maximizing everything else, only wasting a talent on strange mercy which is quite good for frontline service.

[CriticalFailure]

A fighter doesn't even need a shield. It can dual wield or go 2 handed

 

So can a paladin. I'm not arguing whether it's better or worse than a fighter, but nothing forces paladins to use a shield.

 

So ? You put the paladin in the middle. Problem solved. Paladin aura is not for cowardly classes who stay back.

Only that none of the characters in that pic is "a coward who stays back", they're all pretty close and fighting in melee. As others have said, there's a middle ground between being in the back row, several meters away, and having to hug the paladin in order to be "inspired" by him.

 

I agree that simply increasing all auras' ranges to the same as Zealous Charge sounds about right.

Edited April 26, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[MoxyWoo]

I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.

 

Yeah it is weird that is in an item in the first village the game puts you in. i'm sure it drops paladin shield idea into peoples heads. But I guess yeah nothing is forcing you to use a shield.

 

I will give PoE the fact that you basically have a party consiting of any combination of classes and have awful attributes and you will still be fine and enjoy the game if its what you picked while playing on normal.

 

But the Paladin right now you are forced to use as the PC or the major Paladin mojo (faith and conviction) doesn't work. Even as your PC the Paladin just feels "off". Like it is missing something that Paladin's always have in DnD, P&P, other cRPG's. Might not be able to put my finger on it but the Paladin is just lacking something. Maybe its because Religion/Gods is completely removed? And the Class plays as some kind of Knight/Commander/Leader type of character.

 

Like if the class was called something else beside Paladin would so many people be disappointed with the class?

[MoxyWoo]

 

I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.

 

Yeah it is weird that is in an item in the first village the game puts you in. i'm sure it drops paladin shield idea into peoples heads. But I guess yeah nothing is forcing you to use a shield.

 

I will give PoE the fact that you basically have a party consiting of any combination of classes and have awful attributes and you will still be fine and enjoy the game if its what you picked while playing on normal.

 

But the Paladin right now you are forced to use as the PC or the major Paladin mojo (faith and conviction) doesn't work. Even as your PC the Paladin just feels "off". Like it is missing something that Paladin's always have in DnD, P&P, other cRPG's. Might not be able to put my finger on it but the Paladin is just lacking something. Maybe its because Religion/Gods is completely removed? And the Class plays as some kind of Knight/Commander/Leader type of character.

 

Like if the class was called something else beside Paladin would so many people be disappointed with the class?

 

 

If it was called the Marshal or whatever version then I'd still have the same issues if they were made as they were.

 

Personally, if they were named Marshal and went for the same build types of passive auras, on strike/kill abilities, then they'd be awesome.

 

Imagine how much cooler the "paladin" would be if they provided boss buffs for every per encounter hit they did or similar "leader/striker/support" style?

 

Edit:  Getting old, think it was actually called Warlord if I remember right not Marshal from 4e.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Crescent Hawk]

The only way to play Paladin for me right now is completely ignoring his abilities\exhortations and just pick sworn enemy, strange mercy from KW and a bunch of deflection talents to make me not regret picking a fighter instead. Sweet Athena eyes obsidian, way to ruin such a classic class.

[b0rsuk]

Why would casters not "deserve" Paladin aura?

 

 

Because they're girly cowards. It's a field marshal type of class, not an artillery spotter. People won't shut up how 1 tank + 5 ranged DPS classes is the correct way to play. If there's 1 (ONE) class that pretty much boosts only front line melee companions with his auras that's somehow grave offense. I like paladin in part because to benefit from him you need multiple melee characters. He's the better the more melee characters you have. Animal Companions and summons are welcome. Endurance aura and so on.

Edited April 26, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Jimmysdabestcop]

 

Because they're girly cowards. It's a field marshal type of class, not an artillery spotter. People won't shut up how 1 tank + 5 ranged DPS classes is the correct way to play. If there's 1 (ONE) class that pretty much boosts only front line melee companions with his auras that's somehow grave offense. I like paladin in part because to benefit from him you need multiple melee characters. He's the better the more melee characters you have. Animal Companions and summons are welcome. Endurance aura and so on.

 

 

Thats a good point. Paladin with a Fighter and say a Monk/Fighter/Ranger/Barb would be pretty good. You could Flex out the Priest. Make him a cannon and have a slot for say club and shield if he has to go melee to protect back liners. Then you could also have a cipher, wizard/druid. 

 

Not a bad Party and I can see how the Paladin better the more melee characters you have. I would really like a dual wielding spear Ranger with Bear for that build.

[MoxyWoo]

Problem is from a practical optimization.. too many melee = annoying.

 

There are certain fights like shades or similar that are okay with it as they go through and just pound on anyone or anything, but really in PoE....  its hella annoying to accidentally run "around" someone.  I had 3 melee at one point and thought it was bad because I couldn't position due to narrow hallways, etc.

 

From another view point, the 1-2 tanks and then 4-5 dps backrow worked out so much easier.

 

Edit to add:  Paladins aura would realistically only hit 2 other melee currently without bugs.  And that's with very careful, very good positioning that doesn't always happen when everyone is bumping into each other.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[b0rsuk]

More observations about paladins:

1. Their abilities are the worst of melee and caster worlds. They have quite specialized powers (exhortations especially), but they only get a very limited number of uses. 1 Lay on Hands per encounter is low! Some of their more powerful exhortations are per rest, and the number is rather low, typically around 2/rest. Now thematically, it fits that paladins are inflexible. But a pure caster class can cast the same spell 4 times per rest, and they are typically mass spells. Situations where I need two Liberating Exhortations AND two Reinforcing Exhortations are fairly rare. If they don't have a common pool for spells, at least they should get more uses. Base should be closer to 3.

 

2. You burn a point to get Zealous Charge, then you see it's only slightly better than chanter's "Swift" chant. But chanters get more skill points per level! Once you charge into melee,  you don't have Zealous Focus to fall back to. But chanter can switch to something else.

 

3. They have many class talents, but those talents don't impress.

 

My conclusions:

- single target abilities should be noticably stronger/longer lasting than mass versions of other classes

- some of their abilities could be bundled, for example Reinforcing Exhortation + Zealous Charge, Focus + Liberating Exhortation, Endurance + Hastening Exhortation

- per-rest abilities should have more uses. 2 uses of Hastening Exhortation can't be converted into some other spell, like with other casters.

[MadDemiurg]

I personally don't think that Paladin abilities should be on par witch Chanter/Priest, since paladin has much better stats (especially defenses). There should be some tradeoff. They should not be useless however. For instance, I find reinforcing exhortation reasonably useful (maybe it can use a small buff, like +5). Liberating is good with Darcozzi but not with everyone else (maybe it should add charm/dominate defense on top by default. not only with goldpact talent which seems far too specialized?). Deprive the Unworthy has a per rest instead of per encounter limit for not good reason. Hastening is good, but at level 11 it should be per encounter really. Pooling them all together in one per encounter pool sounds like a good idea (stronger ones can cost 2 uses instead of 1), There should also be some more variation, right now there are just too few of them for flexible builds.

[MoxyWoo]

Chanter actually has the same deflection and accuracy as the Paladin.  Arguably, once you get the Priest talent for their weapon group, they have better accuracy than paladins at that point.  Either way, I think the Paladin tank is not particularly special next to a chanter one, besides a piddling gap in endurance/health that can be made up via racial (well moon god-like).  Additionally, I thought Int was a waste on a paladin, but is handy for a Chanter due to their radius buffs actually needing it and hitting more people.

 

After that, I agree with all your points Mad.. the paladin need more uses, or more worth at later levels.  Personally, it was really hard to continue to play my main paladin when every level was like "oh awesome, they get this!" for my other companions.  

Edited April 26, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[MadDemiurg]

Chanter has 5 less accuracy and no Faith and Conviction, which is quite major (+11 deflect and +22 to all saves upgrading to +13/27 is nothing to sneeze at). OP part about chanter is that he can go full tank and unlike pala still do damage though. Priest is a terrible frontliner with health = 3*endurance unless you like to rest very often.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MoxyWoo]

Oh geeze.  Good catch, was checking the wiki late at night, haha.

[CriticalFailure]

I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.

I know, but I think it's in part a psychological factor, rather than practical. Depending on your party composition, you may as well be giving up some of the top weapons for the sake of using the shield, or maybe even have more than one paladin in the party (no need to discuss the merits of this in detail). Or you may want a more offensive paladin focused on the on-kill talents. Or whatever.

 

Don't take me wrong, it's a great item, but it's not the only option, and it's no Carsomyr.

 

Like if the class was called something else beside Paladin would so many people be disappointed with the class?

Please, not this again. People are not confused with the names, they are disappointed with the ****ty abilities and class mechanics in general. Simply changing a few names isn't going to make them any less ****ty.

 

@b0rsuk, you keep talking as if the auras can easily reach anyone who isn't hiding in a bush half a kilometer away. Again, look at the pic in the previous page. What kind of leader are you if your leadership talents are lost on anyone who's two steps away from you?

Edited April 26, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[Longknife]

 

 

Because they're girly cowards. It's a field marshal type of class, not an artillery spotter. People won't shut up how 1 tank + 5 ranged DPS classes is the correct way to play. If there's 1 (ONE) class that pretty much boosts only front line melee companions with his auras that's somehow grave offense. I like paladin in part because to benefit from him you need multiple melee characters. He's the better the more melee characters you have. Animal Companions and summons are welcome. Endurance aura and so on.

 

 

Thats a good point.

 

 

No it's not! Read what he wrote. There's nothing logical about it, only emotional.

 

The reason you boost the casters is because a 50% damage increase on a shot that does 60 damage is superior to a 50% damage increase on a hit that does 15 damage. The squad functions more efficiently when everyone focuses on what they're best at. I will get more use out of taking my Priest's +20 accuracy buff and sticking it on the wizard and cipher in the back instead of putting it on the tank-focused Fighter in hopes his damage output will become decent. That's why you try and get one tank to hold the line and hold off as many people as possible and that's why you make the guys in the back hit as hard as possible.

 

And this is where the problem with Paladins arises. Paladins are so confused as to what they do that in order to get the maximum use out of a Paladin, they belong on the front lines. But the moment you do so, their aura doesn't hit the guys in the back, and particularly in the case of Zealous Focus and it's accuracy + crit increases, those are the exact people you want to have the aura.

 

 

It's a class that cannot make use of all the tools it's provided with simultaneously, and what's more, those tools are pretty mediocre to begin with...

 

This is basic math dude.

[b0rsuk]

No it's not! Read what he wrote. There's nothing logical about it, only emotional.

 

The reason you boost the casters is because a 50% damage increase on a shot that does 60 damage is superior to a 50% damage increase on a hit that does 15 damage. The squad functions more efficiently when everyone focuses on what they're best at. I will get more use out of taking my Priest's +20 accuracy buff and sticking it on the wizard and cipher in the back instead of putting it on the tank-focused Fighter in hopes his damage output will become decent. That's why you try and get one tank to hold the line and hold off as many people as possible and that's why you make the guys in the back hit as hard as possible.

 

blah blah blah

 

blah blah blah

 

It's not emotional, it's argument for distinctive design and unique classes. You can improve Paladin's strengths, what I am advocating. You can also cover their weaknesses, which you seem to prefer. In this case covering weaknesses makes Paladin more like the other classes, which is not interesting. You already have Chanter with big areas, not to mention the 2 pure caster classes (I don't think wizard has any area buffs). As long as Paladin is a separate class, and not a Priest or Fighter kit, I want it to play differently.

 

Paladin is not too far from that, it just needs a few boosts. Initial levels 1-3 are good, I feel like I have interesting stuff to pick up. The late levels, 7-11, are also good. It's the middle that's meh.

 

And a boost to Paladin auras is a boost to just Focus aura, really. With a bigger Focus aura it would be able to cover ranged attackers. Endurance aura is big enough already - ranged attackers don't benefit from it. You need to work on your positioning.

 

Not all Paladin skills are viable. Choices are too obvious on some levels. Deprive The Unworthy or Reviving Exhortation ? Reviving Exhortation has 20 second duration (no damage) with 16 Intelligence. Liberating Exhortation is too niche compared to Sworn Enemy and even Inspiring Triumph. Zealous Charge looks rather pale next to Zealous Focus and Zealous Endurance.

 

Also, I possess the special cunning which enables me to switch between shield and 2-hander sets. Outworn Buckler is good, but not worth having equipped all the time. Sometimes you need to kick butts, for example when one of enemies got through to your squishies.

Edited April 26, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Longknife]

Are you aware absolutely nothing you said was in response to the points I made?

 

....Nor did you even really manage to make any coherent points at all?

[b0rsuk]

Are you aware absolutely nothing you said was in response to the points I made?

 

....Nor did you even really manage to make any coherent points at all?

 

I don't feel like taking the bait, your strawman. You are misrepresenting what I said. You don't like the Paladin class, we get it. It seems to bother you other people enjoy the class. This I don't get. Paladin is meant to be a low-maintenance front/support class, and it is. It doesn't have the strengths of the listed classes, but it doesn't have their weaknesses either. It's okay for a class to have general utility.

Edited April 26, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Raven Darkholme]

People still replying to that obvious troll...