Are Paladins really not that bad?

[b0rsuk]

Then why, in the two videos we were given with Paladin and Fighter both solo'ing the Sky dragon, do they have seemingly identical kill times despite the fact that Fighter had no summon assistance and Paladin did?

 

Can we also talk about how the people defending Paladins are also currently in the process of arguing Darcozzi Paladini, aka 1/5th of all Paladin builds, is perfectly fine and therefore Paladin is fine? Again, there's clearly a problem if this is what the discussion ends up being like.

 

1. Because the fighter took extra skills to compensate ? The fighter has more damage increasing skills overall, so eventually he can pull ahead. At the cost of skill points and talents. Anyway, it's just PotD and solo, it's marginal and not what the game was designed around.

 

2. Please quote. I talk about Darcozzi because that's the last mentioned paladin order, not necessarily my favorite. If *I* was playing Darcozzi, I would choose Endurance aura for better synergy.

 

 

You can't force fighter to use defender either (although not using it would be stupid). Guardian is a trash skill. not a commonly used skill. Paladin also needs to invest in offensive skills to deal any damage above the baseline - Zealous Focus over Endurance, FoD over LoH, Sworn Enemy over Exhortations. Without extra skills damage is exactly the same for both classes.

And what is Average accuracy if not average ? Paladin is a proficient weapon user. He has the same Accuracy as a Barbarian, for example. By default, Barbarian only deals more damage with carnage.

 

Anyway, there's too much comparing in vacuum done on this subforum. Paladin's skills help other party members, without making Paladin deal less. Fighter's skill don't, except Guardian which comes with an attack speed penalty.

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0rsuk

[MadDemiurg]

 You can't force fighter to use defender either (although not using it would be stupid). Guardian is a trash skill. not a commonly used skill. Paladin also needs to invest in offensive skills to deal any damage above the baseline - Zealous Focus over Endurance, FoD over LoH, Sworn Enemy over Exhortations. Without extra skills damage is exactly the same for both classes.

And what is Average accuracy if not average ? Paladin is a proficient weapon user. He has the same Accuracy as a Barbarian, for example. By default, Barbarian only deals more damage with carnage.

 

Fighter has high accuracy. Paladin has high accuracy. Barbarian actually has 5 less base accuracy than both. Paladin and fighter deal exactly same damage without abilities and talents.

[Longknife]

1. Because the fighter took extra skills to compensate ? The fighter has more damage increasing skills overall, so eventually he can pull ahead. At the cost of skill points and talents. Anyway, it's just PotD and solo, it's marginal and not what the game was designed around.

 

2. Please quote. I talk about Darcozzi because that's the last mentioned paladin order, not necessarily my favorite. If *I* was playing Darcozzi, I would choose Endurance aura for better synergy.

 

 

Please quote what? The fact of the matter is that lately anyone defending Paladins clings to that Darcozzi skill like it singlehandedly saves the entire class. Or is there some other amazing (Darcozzi definitely not amazing either, I've made one) Paladin order we've yet to hear about or discover?

 

And I'm confused about wtf you're defending or why you're defending it.  You're essentially arguing Paladin has better damage output than Fighter for a portion of the game, which is already an abysmally pathetic argument to be made because neither class is considered to be a damage-dealing class so both of their damage outputs are pathetic. (to be fair to Fighter, their damage output can be respectable, it's just they get prioritized for tanking 99% of the time)

   Who cares? This somehow makes Paladin good or viable? This is akin to me saying Rogue has better status effects than Cipher for a portion of the game (the tutorial). It means nothing.

 

 

 

Fighter has high accuracy. Paladin has high accuracy. Barbarian actually has 5 less base accuracy than both. Paladin and fighter deal exactly same damage without abilities and talents.

 

 

I really think comparing these two on damage is stupid in general, but merely for clarity, Fighter does have talents to help him get more consistent damage and consistent hits, and I believe has access to more accuracy in general. Again though, this hardly happens in practice because Fighters are gonna be spec'ed as tanks 99% of the time.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Longknife

[Raven Darkholme]

I don't think anybody is as enthusiastic about Darcozzi as me. ;P

Even I have to admit I'm biased because I played one.

 

Btw I'm level 12 now and not to sure what to pick. I wanted to take the reflex talent but not sure whether it's really worth it. With buffs I can reach 170 reflex but without it's less (without the reflex talent).

But would for example picking a melee weapon talent help me against adra at all? I gather I'd have to use scrolls anyway?

[Jimmysdabestcop]

My point still stands that three of Fighter's commonly used abilities reduce damage he deals. You need to invest in extra offensive skills to reach damage dealt by Paladin in tank mode.

Cautious Attack is completely optional, you can't force me to take it.

 

Not really. Defender slows attack rate by 20% but if you take two weapon fighting it increases by 20%. In essence canceling each other out. The Fighter only need Defender and Wary Defender that is it. And maybe the extra Regen endurance talent. The rest are all offensive talents. And its the only class to have damage modifiers applied to every basic attack.

 

Then its gets talent to lower armor penalty by 16% and a built in second chance talent. good builds of a fighter and a paladin. The fighter will do way more damage and have just as high defense stats.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't think anybody is as enthusiastic about Darcozzi as me. ;P

Even I have to admit I'm biased because I played one.

 

Btw I'm level 12 now and not to sure what to pick. I wanted to take the reflex talent but not sure whether it's really worth it. With buffs I can reach 170 reflex but without it's less (without the reflex talent).

But would for example picking a melee weapon talent help me against adra at all? I gather I'd have to use scrolls anyway?

If you're specifically building for the dragon fight, weapon focus is kinda useless since it will take ages to kill the dragon with a toothpick. Defensive talents are a solid choice. If you plan to keep at range you mostly need reflex, its melee attacks can target deflection and fortitude so don't try to melee if you don't have these through the roof as well. Adragans can attack fortitude and will with impressive accuracy as well, fortunately they are not that difficult to dispatch. Unfortunately, they can screw you up with a single cast. Be sure you have deep pockets if you haven't picked them by now.

[Raven Darkholme]

I suppose its deep pockets then, didn't need it yet, thx.

[gkathellar]

My point still stands that three of Fighter's commonly used abilities reduce damage he deals. You need to invest in extra offensive skills to reach damage dealt by Paladin in tank mode.

Cautious Attack is completely optional, you can't force me to take it.

(a) 30 accuracy vs 25 accuracy

(b) Fighters actually have offensive things to invest in.

© Tanking without Cautious Attack lol

[Crescent Hawk]

Does critical focus 5% work on the Paladin itself? I wonder if a two handed Paladin build would benefit better form the extra 3DR from zealous endurance.

[gkathellar]

Does critical focus 5% work on the Paladin itself? I wonder if a two handed Paladin build would benefit better form the extra 3DR from zealous endurance.

If you're committed to going two-handed, you should definitely grab Zealous Accuracy - there's even an argument for taking it as a tanky solo paladin. 6 accuracy is nothing to sneeze at.

 

But I'd stay away from the critical boosting talent. It's not worth much on this type of character, especially since "hits to crits" works as an extension of the normal Accuracy system.

[Crescent Hawk]

 

Does critical focus 5% work on the Paladin itself? I wonder if a two handed Paladin build would benefit better form the extra 3DR from zealous endurance.

If you're committed to going two-handed, you should definitely grab Zealous Accuracy - there's even an argument for taking it as a tanky solo paladin. 6 accuracy is nothing to sneeze at.

 

But I'd stay away from the critical boosting talent. It's not worth much on this type of character, especially since "hits to crits" works as an extension of the normal Accuracy system.

 

Even in Potd? I guess especially in potd because you face xaurips champions with 76 deflection. The extra DR can be aquired from other boasting stuff.

[Crescent Hawk]

I think I am going for a semi tank KWayfarer, I hate dumping stats, I know there is no negative checks so the system encourages stat dumping, but well makes no sense.

 

Mig 14
Con 11
Dex 9
Per 14
Int 11
Res 19


Lay on Hands
Zealous Focus
Flames of Devotion\ or does deprive the unworthy worth it?
Reviving Exhortation
Liberating Exhortation
Righteous Soul


Strange Mercy\ sword and the sheperd is cool in the begging but gets really weak, feeding on weaker enemies seems best.
Hold the line
Cautious Attack
Weapon and Shield
Unstoppable\ seems nice may switch it for superior deflection
Weapon Focus

 

 

 

I already tried tons of different Paladin builds all of them underwhelming. Maybe this one will be somewhat decent at tanking and some damage, also provide some relief to frontliners.

[peddroelm]

My all melee parties love zelous focus - absolute must pick at level 3 ..

 

Tons of potentially battle changing  abilities benefit of it - on top the bonus to regular attack (difference between a miss and a graze can get quite huge )..

Knockdown, Torments Reach(inital and AOE hits IF the initial hits) , Canage (inital + carnage rolls), Stunning Blow,  Force of anguish, Rooting Pain,all Rogue on hit debuffs, Rogue Switch position with hostile , etc..scrolls .. etc .. etc .. (spells too but of less concern to my melee parties )

 

Zealous focus makes everything better .

Edited April 30, 2015 by peddroelm

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Think I would want Per at 18 as well for better deflection. Maybe a spear or club for the extra accuracy or as hatchet for deflection and forget offense.

 

I would be really tempted to dump Con and Max Dexterity. With the shield, cautious attack, and low dex he is going to have the least amount of attacks in the party most likely. Maybe even drop Might to 10. No bonus to base damage but at least the pally will attack more often. And with a higher Per more interrupts. Can even take the interrupt boosting talent.

 

Reason why I think completely dumping Con would work is. You can go max deflection, shield, and probably heaviest armor. Is Con really needed? You can always give him a +3 Might Item. +2 Int to Armor enchant. And a helmet or necklace with +Per/Res. And there are enough +2 Dex items as well. Plus resting bonuses.

 

Mig 10
Con 3
Dex 18
Per 18
Int 11
Res 18

 

With +6 Aurora, weapon focus, and a club or spear +5 you should still be hitting enemies if you are going small Pally Herald shield.

[Raven Darkholme]

Only problem about low CO and MI is stuff like petrify attacks fort def. I got 7 CO and 8 Might but run around with 17 MI and 14 CO Most of the time due to bonuses.

[Raven Darkholme]

Undead Radric is a joke with pala. I didn't use any consumables except beefloaf and no figurines. I only rested in Gilded Vale, no whore bonus. I rareöy got hit by charm because I had 160 def vs. 90 attack. If i got hit it lasted for 1(!) second because of the level 9 ability. I didn't get under 75 % endurance. Only thing that hit me reliably was combusting wounds and Raedrics aura, which seems like it can't be dodged anyway since there is no roll in the log.

[dunehunter]

Enduring flame's DOT damage counts on enemy's DR, make it a useless talent. To me, the only useful pal talents are Inspiring Liberation from Darcozzi , Kindwayer order talents and shield flaming, others just sucks.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dunehunter

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Undead Radric didn't pop up for me until I was already max level on my 1st play through. So 2nd time was actually easier then the first time. 1st encounter I wasn't ready for at all. Up until that point there were like zero hard fights and that fight goes off the scale compared to rest of the encounters that early.

 

2nd fight I think I even fought both dragons already. Guess I just wasn't paying attention that he left a letter at your stronghold. I was like wtf my bad.

[Atchod]

After upcoming patch , respec companions will be a thing , any ideas for Pallegina build ? Maybe she could make close range gunslinger or something . 

[Manty5]

I went back and read the developer's notes, compared them to how paladin actually plays, and came up with this:

 

Paladins are a warrior/support hybrid.  Their support options differ from priests by being fewer in number and usually not AoE, but individually more powerful (such as liberating exhortation being single target but twice the duration from the cleric counterpart).  Paladins are also war-leaders, using feats of martial prowess or even their mere presence to bolster allies.

 

An important point, one I'd like to see the class keep and even expand on, is that Flames of Devotion, on-kill abilities and Aura are interesting in that they are extremely action-efficient - a cleric has to cast a spell and get a buff in return, but Flames of Devotion procs with your attack, which you were going to do anyway and Aura is always-on.  This is notable because paladins often wear heavy armor and therefore they can't sit about waving their arms every time they want an effect, or they'd be doing that all day.  So this efficiency is something I think is necessary to understand the class properly.

 

So, here's how I would change the class to (I hope) match this burning soul of zeal.  Please understand that this change would need balancing, like any change does.  So we're examining the overall idea, not so much the details and percentages that can easily be changed.

 

Faith guides my weapon, my sworn enemy falls at my feet.

First, I'd swap the roles of Sworn enemy(accuracy+damage) and FoD(pure damage).  There are a bunch of complaints that FoD is a waste of a spell that might not even hit.  So lets MAKE it hit.  Instead of +50% damage, make it +30 accuracy with no damage.  This will have... interesting effects with on-crit weapons as well as addressing one of the loudest complaints about on-kill talents in that whiffing the killing blow can be a real problem.  When they absolutly must hit something, they now very likely will.  Sworn enemy meanwhile functions much like it always has, except with 50% damage instead of its previous effects.

 

He trained his hands to mend both flesh and spirit while his brother trained his sword to wound both body and eternal soul.

Here is where we double-down on that wonderful paladin characteristic of efficient actions and further seperate him from being comprable to a cleric.  Almost EVERYTHING is now either a lay on hands or a smite, and your choice of talents directly influences whether you focus your overflowing soul-energies twords enemies or friends.  Oh, and we're going to fix the classes' scaling problems while we're at it.  Sound exciting?

 

Lay On Hands:  Unchanged when you first get it.  Still one charge of moderate single-target healing.

+ Each add-on ability listed below adds 10% healing AND one charge of Lay on Hands

+ With Reviving Exhortation talent:  LoH can now be used on a fallen ally and also heals the target for the same amount that he would have recieved if it had been cast while he was standing.  There is no extra disappearing stamina.

+ Liberating Exhortation: LoH now adds the standard LE effect to its healing. 

+ Reinforcing Exhortation, Hastening Exhortation, Inspiring Exhortation, Bond of Duty, Shielding Touch:  Same effects as before, but they also add a charge of LoH and 10% healing, allowing a paladin who wants to focus on the LoH half of his skillset to do so.

- Greater Lay on Hands is removed.  Talents that merely add percentages tend to be boring, and its function is already being handled by the (each ability adds 10% healing).

 

Smite(or other replacement term for Flames of Devotion):  Starts with only one charge.

* Each add-on ability listed below adds 5 acc to Smite AND one charge of Smite.

* Remember Rakhan Field, Fires of Darcozzi Palace, The Sword and the Shepherd, Shielding Flames, Intense flames, Enduring Flames - all work as above except they also add the aformentioned effectiveness and charges.

* Deprive the Unworthy: Is now an added effect to smite.  Possibly cut the duration by half for balance?

 

So as you can see, the list of abilities is greatly simplified.  Everything is a smite or a Lay on Hands, so you're not sitting about waving your hands all day as each situation arises.  I realize that sometimes you might want a exhortation without adding the heal to it, but this is the price of minimizing the number of times you need micromanage.  Also, having one action do several powerful but specialized things makes the Paladin even more different from a cleric, while both of them remain useful in their own ways.  And you get to decide what balance of offence and defence that you want, simply by adding abilities and thus charges.  The charges do more and increase in number with each talent, growing as your character does, eliminating the scaling problem.

 

Balance-wise, this is a major change being suggested.  Implementation-wise though?  The inner workings of most talents are unaffected... they're simply reorganized.

 

Do you folks think that given a proper balancing pass, that this might make paladins more fun, customizable, and address current concerns like the infamous "I whiffed my killstroke" for KW and BW's?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Manty5

[Longknife]

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

[Schyzm]

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

no, honestly to make paladin desirable for me would require some pretty insane changes, I find their abilities really dull, they just happen to be both dull and kinda bad.

[dunehunter]

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

Guess they give up this class LOL

[Crescent Hawk]

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

Marked Prey and Sworn Enemy have been set to 0 recovery actions, so they can be used and the Ranger/Paladin can immediately act again.

 

 

A slight buff, nothing major, I dont think they will ever buff Paladins.

[Longknife]

 

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

Marked Prey and Sworn Enemy have been set to 0 recovery actions, so they can be used and the Ranger/Paladin can immediately act again.

 

 

A slight buff, nothing major, I dont think they will ever buff Paladins.

 

 

That's crazy to me. It's hands down the most in-demand class for seeing improvements. Wizard was a popular one too but I think it carried more of a tone of "Wizard is amazing when you fully utilize it but it often feels lackluster for the average fight" and had a tone of "why not bring a Cipher" (which falls flat in practice) similar to Ranger vs. Rogue, but the class itself was still solid.

 

Don't get me wrong, improvements for Wizards sounds cool, it's just kinda weird to see so much focus on them and next to nothing for Ranger and Paladin. Ranger just needs some simple pet improvements and they're good to go, Paladin needs a world of help.