Are Paladins really not that bad?

[MadDemiurg]

so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest abilities (blessing & radiance). Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place instead of the paladin to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Gromnir]

 

so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

 

actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important.  the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles.  am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either.  no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination.  is funny.  is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason?  is just plain weird.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Gromnir

[Ruminate]

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

 

actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important.  the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles.  am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either.  no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination.  is funny.  is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason?  is just plain weird.

 

...Where did I say I've made some revelation? I've just pointed out that Zealous charge is the only aura that is not largely made redundant by priest spells, which i still stand by.

 

Recasting is hardly an issue on high Int priest, battles don't last that long. For trash battles you don't need the buffs, so limited uses are also mostly not an issue (and basic priest spells become per encounter @lvl 9).

 

If your priest is getting CC'd right at the start of the fight you're having bigger problems than not being able to get that +5/6 accuracy buff. I haven't seen fights where I wasn't able to counter it with my own CC though.

 

Seems to me I'm not the one who's being ignorant here.

 

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Gromnir]

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

doesn't  really matter.  the aura is persistent and requires no initial casting-- significant advantages but hardly earth shaking.  regardless, the ability does stack and stack effective.

 

 

 

 

 

so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

 

actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important.  the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles.  am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either.  no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination.  is funny.  is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason?  is just plain weird.

 

...Where did I say I've made some revelation? I've just pointed out that Zealous charge is the only aura that is not largely made redundant by priest spells, which i still stand by.

 

Recasting is hardly an issue on high Int priest, battles don't last that long. For trash battles you don't need the buffs, so limited uses are also mostly not an issue (and basic priest spells become per encounter @lvl 9).

 

If your priest is getting CC'd right at the start of the fight you're having bigger problems than not being able to get that +6 accuracy buff. I haven't seen fights where I wasn't able to counter it with my own CC though.

 

Seems to me I'm not the one who's being ignorant here.

 

 

 

is funny.  you tell us how quick the battles are at higher difficulties, but you don't see the advantage o' a persistent aura with no need for casting.  keep at it though.  oh, and have you admitted that you were wrong?  

 

btw, this is where you initial shared your (misinformed) revelation

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/?p=1670284

 

thanks for letting us know.

 

you then followed it up by telling us you had tested priestly stacking with paladin auras.  afterwards you informed us that you had searched the forums for examples o' priestly abilities stacking with zealous focus and found nothing. you told us all kinda wonderfully wrong stuff.  is tough to keep up with just how mistaken you are.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MadDemiurg]

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

doesn't  really matter.  the aura is persistent and requires no initial casting-- significant advantages but hardly earth shaking.  regardless, the ability does stack and stack effective.

 

 

 

 

 

so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

 

actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important.  the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles.  am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either.  no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination.  is funny.  is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason?  is just plain weird.

 

...Where did I say I've made some revelation? I've just pointed out that Zealous charge is the only aura that is not largely made redundant by priest spells, which i still stand by.

 

Recasting is hardly an issue on high Int priest, battles don't last that long. For trash battles you don't need the buffs, so limited uses are also mostly not an issue (and basic priest spells become per encounter @lvl 9).

 

If your priest is getting CC'd right at the start of the fight you're having bigger problems than not being able to get that +6 accuracy buff. I haven't seen fights where I wasn't able to counter it with my own CC though.

 

Seems to me I'm not the one who's being ignorant here.

 

 

is funny.  you tell us how quick the battles are at higher difficulties, but you don't see the advantage o' a persistent aura with no need for casting.  keep at it though.  oh, and have you admitted that you were wrong?  

 

btw, this is where you initial shared your (misinformed) revelation

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/?p=1670284

 

thanks for letting us know.

 

you then followed it up by telling us you had tested priestly stacking with paladin auras.  afterwards you informed us that you had searched the forums for examples o' priestly abilities stacking with zealous focus and found nothing. you told us all kinda wonderfully wrong stuff.  is tough to keep up with just how mistaken you are.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I'm starting to think you have comprehension problems. Where did I admit I was wrong?

 

My initial (misinformed as you say) opinion that you linked still stands. All other auras are made largely redundant by priest spells as pointed out by me and many other people before.

 

If you consider 5% hit to crit stacking significant enough - good for you. I said from the get go that it might stack, but is largely negligible.

 

I see the advantage of no need for casting, it is not large enough to validate paladin's presence in the party. As I said already, it saves ~3sec of priest casting time. If you think this is enough to warrant a paladin - well, ok... Yep, battles are pretty fast but they are not 3sec fast.

 

HA! Not even fun already!

Edited April 22, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Gromnir]

I'm starting to think you have comprehension problems. Where did I admit I was wrong?

 

 

 

*groan*

 

you didn't.  that is the problem.  zealous charge is not the only aura that stacks with similar effects.  duh.  zealous focus does actual stack with priestly abilities contrary to your protests. also, you couldn't find other references to zealous focus stacking, which is almost mind-boggling as clearly didn't look hard enough to see such stacking referenced in this thread. 

 

*shrug*

 

you not see as ridiculous to observe how fast high level and high difficulty battles is w/o seeing the advantage o' a Zero casting time?  okie dokie.  

 

am not sure where you think you is taking us, but am enjoying the ride.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 22, 2015 by Gromnir

[MadDemiurg]

 

I'm starting to think you have comprehension problems. Where did I admit I was wrong?

 

 

 

*groan*

 

you didn't.  that is the problem.  duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Well, let's agree to disagree, I'm kinda tired too.

[Ruminate]

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

[MadDemiurg]

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

 

Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support.

 

I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun.

 

My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring.

Edited April 22, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Ruminate]

 

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

 

Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support.

 

I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun.

 

My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring.

 

 

From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage.

A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW.

From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage.

[Gromnir]

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

 

the amusing thing is, Gromnir were kinda a lone voice in the darkness claiming that priests were our favorite class amongst the beta testers.  we didn't see 'em as a most powerful class, but we were the only guy that chose 'em in the couple o' class mvp threads that spawned during the beta.  we were also one o' the few folks who claimed that they were powerful.  am not being hyperbolic about being the only guy vocal favoring priests neither.

 

*shrug*

 

the paladin, in our estimation, could use work, but we can say the same o' all the classes.  we find the knightly order class o' poe to be a bit boring, but that ain't an actual flaw o' the class as it is part o' the design philosophy o' paladins to be low-maintenance.  that being said, paladins is actually our second favorite class choice for a pc 'cause o' dialogue choices aligning with our notion o' good attributes for a paladin.  we tend to boost perception, intelligence and resolve as we see those attributes most frequent showing up in conversations with npcs (companion and otherwise.) those three attributes are also our targets for a capable paladin, so am not needing to sacrifice attributes to get dialogues. additionally, we are of the opinion that paladins are not nearly as crappy as the mob currently believes.  a paladin and a priest make a very effective duo.  the priest need not waste efforts on revives or cleanses or a single large heal as long as we got a paladin present.  would we want a paladin to be our only support character, or pair it with a chanter? probable not, but we like it very much with a priest.  am not seeing wanting to pair the paladin with a priest as a shortcoming o' the class.

 

our most notable complaint regarding paladins is that too many o' their abilities are of only situational use, and perhaps obsidian split too many abilities up into pieces so that we need must take additional talents or abilities to make our limited support choices actual useful. want flames of devotion?  ok, but you actual need take intense flames for it to be useful... or at least useful enough for Gromnir.  similarly, am thinking that the special powers o' the paladin orders should not require a second talent/ability.  example: kind wayfarers should get per kill benefits once they choose inspiring triumph.  needs take a second talent to unlock the benefits o' the order's special qualities is, in our mind, excessive.  the situational use o' many paladin abilities, coupled with the unnecessary splintering of abilities and talents makes our usable pool o' potential abilities for any individual paladin a bit unsatisfying.  the paladin could use work, but we can say the same o' all the classes.

 

the only class we do not like is the ranger.  what appears to set the ranger apart from the rogue as a heavy-hitter is the animal companion, and the animal companion is awkward.  am not seeing a good way to fix Gromnir's problems with the ranger w/o complete redesigning the animal companions or getting rid o' the critters... but as the beasties is what make rangers unique...

 

*shrug*

 

we don't particular like chanters, but we don't think they are a terrible class.  we find paladin gameplay a bit boring, but we believe they actual contribute a great deal as a support class.  we dislike rangers.  sorry, but there is no "but" for the rangers.

 

as much as we dislike class systems, and as much as we observed early in development that classes were regretfully understandable (and possibly necessary) baggage from the ie games that were deserving o' a perfunctory viking funeral before embracing a more egalitarian class free system, we concede that the 11 classes, with one exception, is unique, well-crafted and engaging.  the classes ain't perfect or even close to perfect, but am genuine surprised at how much entertainment we is getting from making use o' different class combinations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MoxyWoo]

Longknife did a good post about fixing the paladin.  Figure we could get back on topic and figure out fixes/buffs.

 

Offhand for solutions after playing one, I'd give them the following:

-Globally, let everything stack with spells.  Give them an instant or fast cast.

 

-Flames of devotion:  More uses as they level.  Bug fix of lash damage (though this can be said of all classes)

 

-Lay on hands:  Instant or fast cast, increase the range.  Its really hard to use if you go the typical off tank route in heavier armor.  Possibly up the uses as well.

 

(or as others suggested, roll them into one power).

 

-Liberating Exhortation:  Needs AoE, least keep them semi comparable to priests.  This power is still nice due to the fast cast and Dracozzi Talent though, but other ones have issues.  Additionally, I'd like it to be a preventive measure like taking 3 hits of a debuff or something more 'cover' like.  Another suggestion is to make it redirect to the Paladin's saves which are typically higher like the similar 'cover' theme.

 

-Faith and Conviction:  For NPC paladins.

 

-Zealous (Insert here):  I don't see it being overpowered to let it be turned on with each aura, and stack with the spells.  YMMV, but I like the idea of an Auradin, and it still requires 3 class talents invested.  Auras could also use a bump up for their range, possibly 6m (double the size) would be fine to at least let them effect all allies with 20 int + zealous boots.  Still requires the min-max stat approach then.

 

-Inspiring Triumph:  Increase range to 8m, this will let it at least hit the back row reliably.  Though I guess a 20 int + zealous boots can make it reach the backline and maybe it was optimized for this.  Additionally, I'd like a class talent line that gives another passive besides defense like +accuracy.

 

-Sworn Enemy:  Personally like the Pathfinder smiting ability, so this seems similar.  I'd add a small speed boost or make it encounter as a wish list thing, or have it also benefit allies (because at level 7+ its not that good of an ability compared to just about every other class).

 

-Deprive the Unworthy:  Haven't used this.  Offhand I'd give it like some sort of taunt mechanic too where the target has to focus on the Paladin as well for X seconds.

 

-Reviving Exhortation:  Bug fix needed.  Currently kills off the ally its cast on.  Another solution is to give it more of a global use like a +hp shield or similar pool of hp/revive instead.  Might be easier to code too.  Another suggestion is to make it comparable to some of the buffs available at this level from other classes to have a nice stacking per encounter ability and a reason to take a paladin.

 

-Reinforcing Exhortation:  Haven't used.  

 

-Coordinated Attacks:  My main gripe is this passive is pretty underwhelming for the level you get it, I'd move it down a few levels.  Additionally, it'd be nice if it gave like a +engagement or similar helping of one of the roles the paladin is supposed to fill.

 

-Hastening Exhortation:  +20% attack speed is awesome.  What is not awesome is that its like everything else, too little and too late for the "top" ability.  Offhand, I'd change it to something like a half effective Combat transformation or similar buff that stacks with everyone else in addition to the speed bonus.  Make an ally go really into "hero" mode as it were.

 

Possible niceties:

-Zealous Barrage:  http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Zealous_Barrage

(bring that back, don't really see it being that overpowered, but whatever).

 

-Dracozzi Palace Talent scaling with level, like +1 per level with a base of 10 damage.  Keeps it roughly in line with rooting pain but has a duration then.

 

I can't speak to the other orders as I've only played Dracozzi, but similar tweaks/buffs for all of them would be necessary in my mind to keep them wanted along with all the other options above.

[Gromnir]

Longknife did a good post about fixing the paladin.  

 

 

disagree.  we noted already/elsewhere that far too many o' longknife complaints were based on fundamental misconceptions.  the poe paladin is s'posed to be a support class... is s'posed to be a low-maintenance support class with admirable defensive qualities and powerful single target heals, debuffs and cleanses.  is nothing wrong with that concept.  is other poe classes that can fill striker roles in a multitude o' fashions, and if you want the paladin to be a better tank than it already is, we can suggest alternative classes as well.

 

*shrug*

 

am not saying all your suggestions is bad, but point to longknife complaints is a bad start.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[b0rsuk]

In the meantime, MASS PALADINS ! One for Zealous Charge, one for Zealous Endurance, one for Zealous Focus. One for Reinforcing Exhortation, one for Hastening Exhortation, one for Liberating Exhortation. Lay on Hands, Sworn Enemy, Coordinating Attacks on each.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.

A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.

 

Is the glass half full?

Is the glass half empty?

Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

 

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.

 

To sum up:

 

There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

 

Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support.

 

I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun.

 

My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring.

 

 

From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage.

A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW.

From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage.

 

Well, tbh 80 damage DoT is not too shabby even if you compare it with druid/priest DoT's. Druid can do more burst, yes, but this is pretty good at wearing down/finishing off big crowds and is free (it also does fully stack with druid DoTs unlike paladin auras and priest spells). It also kinda scales with INT (aoe) and I haven't seen it miss tbh, so I think it actually doesn't have an attack roll (Don't have the game to check it atm). The fact that it doesn't scale with might can be seen as a pro since you can dump it an go full tank stats. Chanter is one of the best solo classes because of this. This is going a bit offtopic however.

[eubatham]

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

The conclusion always comes down to "bring a priest rather than a Paladin" because the Priest brings the same, but down right better versions of most of the Paladin buffs that don't stack with each other. That, along with many more and varied buffs that they all have access to without spending talents. Considering that at lower levels hard fights are far between each other, you'll have the buffs up that you need when you need them despite the per rest limit. Later, the Priest's low ranking spells (which are again include almost all Paladins buffs, but then better versions that don't require talent investment, along with much, much more) become per encounter and the Priest gets access to high level spells that are so powerful the Paladin can't even begin to compare.

 

Powergaming doesn't come into the picture here, nor was it ever really discussed. It's all about the pointlessness of the Paladin. A Paladin isn't anywhere nearly as useful as a Priest, if you try to replace a Priest with a Paladin in your group you're seriously handicapping yourself. And for what? Slightly better tanking than a Priest at lower level, since thanks to gear the class you use for tanking becomes largely irrelevant when you get to act 2? What if we put them both in a party instead? Well, then the Paladin turns into an extremely weak version of a Fighter, because again, most of their buffs don't stack. You'll miss out on +1 accuracy and +5% crit at low level (if you don't bring a Paladin), which is peanuts to what a Priest brings later on. So why not take another fighter instead? Or let a chanter offtank along with a fighter (which many people are doing)?

 

The Paladin needs unique support skills that he brings to the table and see his non support skills keep pace with his level, because currently they're good early on but almost worthless by level 12 (again, almost). Some classes might be above other classes when it comes to relative power but almost all bring something unique to table, apart from the Paladin and one other class. The only other class in a similar situation is the Ranger, which currently lives in the shadow of the Rogue class (but still manages to stand far better on its own compared to a Paladin).

 

But all of this has been explained ad nauseum in this and other threads. If you want to throw a his fit about this and give a stupid, short sighted misinterpretation of the discussion at hand, I guess that is your right to do. But don't mistaken freedom of speech with being right.

Edited April 22, 2015 by eubatham

[Longknife]

 

Longknife did a good post about fixing the paladin.  

 

 

disagree.  we noted already/elsewhere that far too many o' longknife complaints were based on fundamental misconceptions.  the poe paladin is s'posed to be a support class... is s'posed to be a low-maintenance support class with admirable defensive qualities and powerful single target heals, debuffs and cleanses.  is nothing wrong with that concept.  is other poe classes that can fill striker roles in a multitude o' fashions, and if you want the paladin to be a better tank than it already is, we can suggest alternative classes as well.

 

*shrug*

 

am not saying all your suggestions is bad, but point to longknife complaints is a bad start.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

And what portion of my complaints suggested anything but support?

 

As I recall, my complaints were threefold:

 

1) Make Faith and Conviction actually work for NPC Paladins

 

2) Make Flames of Devotion hit harder. The above suggestion of giving it more per encounter uses could also work.

 

4) Boost support skills. All of them. Liberating Exhortation would be more appreciated as a per rest skill if it got a large AOE radius in return. Deprive the Unworthy should function much the same. Lay on Hands could be perfectly balanced if it were a heal that practically made targets jump to full endurance. The short radius on auras is absolutely pointless and the radius should not even be intelligence based (or should be to a much smaller or much more forgiving degree), which would allow auras to automatically hit everyone in the squad on a normal encounter while also diminishing Paladin's demand for intelligence when Paladin is already a stat-starved class; having one less stat feel "vital" means more points going into Might and Constitution, which means better tanking or damage-dealing/healing. All remaining buffs such as deflection, attack speed and coordinated attacks need to be made more viable. AKA, Deflection should be a per encounter AOE buff, attack speed should be an AOE per rest (because honestly you can often debate if the additional attack speed on one singular target is worth the time spent casting the damned thing for most battles) and coordinated attacks should apply to EVERY ally sharing a target with the Paladin, not just the closest. Either make Sworn enemy per encounter or boost it's ability as a per rest ability.

 

 

The vast majority of that is support.  Aside from that, I'm gonna have to echo what at least two people have told you now and say I don't understand why you insist on reading that definition from a backer update about Paladins aaaaages ago and concluding "THIS IS HOW PALADINS MUST BE NOW AND FOREVER AND THERE IS NO POTENTIAL FOR DEVIATION ALLOWED."  Yeah well as I recall we had a Backer update saying low intelligence dialog would be a thing, and it's not. Check any class-related backer update and you'll find changes have been made from then and now.

 

  The fact of the matter is that even if you boosted all of Paladin's support skills, they would still feel a bit lackluster vs. Priest and Chanter. They're going to need extra tankiness and damage to make them capable of competing, so neglecting those aspects of Paladin is a mistake.

 

 

Oh and if people would suggest new skills for Paladin, that's fine but simply realize that's much harder for Obsidian to do and therefore much less likely they'd do it instead of just tweaking the numbers on what Paladin already has.

 

 

 

Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?

With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.

Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

 

 

You are arguing a hyperbole, which has never been an objective or productive way of going about things. None of the classes listed even hold a candle to how far behind Paladin is, with Ranger being the only other class in that list that could possibly deserve some review to make it stronger.

 

The reason people skip Paladin is simple: because Paladin is bad. It will never take priority over any of the other classes. Fun for roleplaying, but also difficult for roleplaying with the current level of it's abilities. Paladin deserves a boost, none of the other classes you listed deserve or need a boost cept Ranger. (and Ranger needs a comparatively very minor boost; just beef up their pet and it's good)

Edited April 22, 2015 by Longknife

[Gromnir]

 

 

Longknife did a good post about fixing the paladin.  

 

 

disagree.  we noted already/elsewhere that far too many o' longknife complaints were based on fundamental misconceptions.  the poe paladin is s'posed to be a support class... is s'posed to be a low-maintenance support class with admirable defensive qualities and powerful single target heals, debuffs and cleanses.  is nothing wrong with that concept.  is other poe classes that can fill striker roles in a multitude o' fashions, and if you want the paladin to be a better tank than it already is, we can suggest alternative classes as well.

 

*shrug*

 

am not saying all your suggestions is bad, but point to longknife complaints is a bad start.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

And what portion of my complaints suggested anything but support?

 

As I recall, my complaints were threefold:

 

1) Make Faith and Conviction actually work for NPC Paladins

 

and just like eub, this is the only observation you made that we agree with... though we note that your post does not enumerate your complaints but a few proposed fixes.  your complaints were silly and legion and we already have addressed your complete unwillingness to embrace the poe concept.  am not seeing a need to have to repeat self Again in that regard.

 

but yeah, faith and convictions not working for companion npcs is an impediment to recruiting a paladin.  we suggested in another thread that a simple fix that would satisfy most folks is to offer a talent to npc paladins that would have their loyalty to the protagonist charge their faith and convictions.  from a practical perspective, we would have the talent result in the companion paladin gain faith and conviction bonuses proportional to their levels rather than dispositions of the pc.  a talent is an expensive fix, but it would be well-worth the expense for those desiring that their companion paladin be similarly resilient to a pc paladin.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Jojobobo]

 

I think something that's fairly noteworthy is Reviving Exhortation is a per encounter ability, that's a pretty strong thing to have (seeing as most other revival options either take some time to set up - Chanters - or they're per rest - Priests). I think things like Zealous Endurance is pretty neat too, it's a fairly strong benefit that's in constant effect. Overall, I'm very happy with how Paladins play.

 

Reviving Exhortation isn't as much a rez as a brief way to get someone cast a couple more spells because it kills the targeted ally after its effect have worn of. It's hardly ever useful in its current form.

 

Zealous Endurance doesn't stack with most other DR, more specifically the level 1 Priest Spell which gives almost double the DR. A spell that becomes castable per encounter at level 9 and considering that hard encounters are far between each other at low levels, you'll have it up whenever you really need the buff.

 

For Reviving Exhortation, I find the key thing is that after the enemy has downed a companion all engagement they have to fear is gone as the enemies have moved on to other team members. In that way, usually after a Reviving Exhortation you can usually consider that companion "safe" for the time being (enemies now elsewhere), allowing them to start DPSing like crazy again. The fact that it's so little cost (per encounter as I mentioned) does make it extremely useful.

 

For the Priest spell, if you're referring to Armor of Faith (the only level 1 spell that does anything to damage thresholds), it actually offers 1 less DR and only lasts 15 seconds rather than a permanent whole battle buff. The radius is better, but honestly when using the Paladin's auras I've not noticed their radius to be that bad in most fights (it usually covers my entire party with a little positioning).

[Longknife]

and just like eub, this is the only observation you made that we agree with... though we note that your post does not enumerate your complaints but a few proposed fixes.  your complaints were silly and legion and we already have addressed your complete unwillingness to embrace the poe concept.  am not seeing a need to have to repeat self Again in that regard.

 

 

I don't even know what "and legion" means and what is "embrace the PoE concept" supposed to mean? What about my criticisms suggests I'm not "embracing the PoE concept?"

 

Might help to criticize my criticisms directly instead of making vague ambiguous statements like that.

[Gromnir]

 

and just like eub, this is the only observation you made that we agree with... though we note that your post does not enumerate your complaints but a few proposed fixes.  your complaints were silly and legion and we already have addressed your complete unwillingness to embrace the poe concept.  am not seeing a need to have to repeat self Again in that regard.

 

 

I don't even know what "and legion" means and what is "embrace the PoE concept" supposed to mean? What about my criticisms suggests I'm not "embracing the PoE concept?"

 

Might help to criticize my criticisms directly instead of making vague ambiguous statements like that.

 

*groan*

 

is the same freaking situation as maddem, and is the same thing eub complains 'bout but he contributed to.  go back and read our previous criticisms o' your misguided paladin rant(s).  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Crucis]

 

and just like eub, this is the only observation you made that we agree with... though we note that your post does not enumerate your complaints but a few proposed fixes.  your complaints were silly and legion and we already have addressed your complete unwillingness to embrace the poe concept.  am not seeing a need to have to repeat self Again in that regard.

 

 

I don't even know what "and legion" means and what is "embrace the PoE concept" supposed to mean? What about my criticisms suggests I'm not "embracing the PoE concept?"

 

Might help to criticize my criticisms directly instead of making vague ambiguous statements like that.

 

 

*facepalm*

 

To say that your complaints were "legion" in the context above is to say that your complaints were many.  Jeez.  There's nothing ambiguous about saying that one's complaints are legion.

 

As for embracing the PoE concept, you're on your own on that one.  I don't exactly know what the "PoE concept" is, or at least what Gromnir thinks it is.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Crucis

[eubatham]

 

For Reviving Exhortation, I find the key thing is that after the enemy has downed a companion all engagement they have to fear is gone as the enemies have moved on to other team members. In that way, usually after a Reviving Exhortation you can usually consider that companion "safe" for the time being (enemies now elsewhere), allowing them to start DPSing like crazy again. The fact that it's so little cost (per encounter as I mentioned) does make it extremely useful.

 

Despite the way that you explain how you use the ability, it still doesn't overcome my main hurdle, namely that it simply kills off anyone that you try to resurrects after it's short buff has expired, unless he or she has dumped quite a few points into Con and has a high base HP. Which significantly narrows the potential survivors.

 

For the Priest spell, if you're referring to Armor of Faith (the only level 1 spell that does anything to damage thresholds), it actually offers 1 less DR and only lasts 15 seconds rather than a permanent whole battle buff. The radius is better, but honestly when using the Paladin's auras I've not noticed their radius to be that bad in most fights (it usually covers my entire party with a little positioning).

 

Make sure that you're not going off the wiki when it comes to priest spells, it's still quite out of date and uses older beta data. I was mistaken myself too, thinking that it was 5DR. But now that I have access to the game itself again, I can verify that my point still stands (though not 'almost double the DR'). It currently offers 4 DR ingame, vs 3DR from the aura. The duration is also base 30 seconds, compared to the documented 15 from the beta.

 

Also keep in mind that that a Priest is always better to be geared towards a spellcaster, while a Paladin usually isn't (although high Int is sometimes used with Paladins for conversation options), boosting that duration to 42sec at 18 Int. I also double checked to be sure, and the effects do not stack.

Edited April 22, 2015 by eubatham

[Ruminate]

 

Well, tbh 80 damage DoT is not too shabby even if you compare it with druid/priest DoT's. Druid can do more burst, yes, but this is pretty good at wearing down/finishing off big crowds and is free (it also does fully stack with druid DoTs unlike paladin auras and priest spells). It also kinda scales with INT (aoe) and I haven't seen it miss tbh, so I think it actually doesn't have an attack roll (Don't have the game to check it atm). The fact that it doesn't scale with might can be seen as a pro since you can dump it an go full tank stats. Chanter is one of the best solo classes because of this. This is going a bit offtopic however.

 

 

DoT stacking or not stacking is irrelevant. You don't use DoTs for the sake of it being a DoT. You use DoTs because it deals damage. Damage removes the opposition. Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers will remove the opposition faster than a Chanter (and at a much earlier level than 9).

Whether you believe it doesn't have an accuracy roll is irrelevant. It does have an accuracy roll. (and because it has an accuracy roll, giving them medium or large shields will also reduce its accuracy.)

 

Yes, Chanter is one of the best solo classes. Solo plays into their niche: long encounters

....but utilizing their niche in a party means the party wasn't very strong to begin with.

 

I'm not saying the Chanter is bad. That isn't my position. I'm just using the same logic some people use on other classes.

If certain people, who use this kind of logic, think someone else using it is irrational or misrepresenting the topic at hand when someone else uses it, then....

(not saying you do, but there are certain people in this thread that can't see their own reflection in the mirror)