Harder than a Pillar: A Fighter's Handbook

[Lord Vicious]

Well, the first order of business is deciding if it is cheese.

 

So you pump your deflection so high the AI cannot hit you, but still continues to try...

Is that equivalent to attacking an enemy who is just standing there bugged and not attacking you back?

Is the result any different?

 

So you play the game so well the AI cannot win against you, but still continues to try...

 

Is that equivalent to using a cheat code to give yourself God mode?

 

Is the result any different?

 

...The result may be the same - winning the game. But the means to get this result are different - by personal skill, or by cheating.

 

Developing an optimised character build and playing it well enough so the enemies rarely, if ever, hit you - that is personal skill, not cheating.

 

And this forum is called "Character builds, Strategies...", not "How to play fair with the AI".

 

If you want to role-play a "fair duel", then remove all tanks and glass cannons from your party (imbalanced builds!), seek a 1-on-1 engagement with a monster, do not use sneak/backstab, do not use any special equipment or items (unfair!), do not use any strategies like positioning (cheese!) or "OP" classes/races etc. But I would like to see how well this would go against the Adra Dragon on PoTD. Because, you know, the enemies have their own "cheese" going.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Lord Vicious

[Incendax]

 

 

I have some sympathy for the minmax distaste, but not for this. Are you saying the enemy is supposed to know he can't hit you? Are the mobs reading the accuracy rolls?

If I put a sword in your hand, and you couldn't hit me even after a dozen of your best swings, would you reconsider your tactics?

 

So you play the game so well the AI cannot win against you, but still continues to try...

Is that equivalent to using a cheat code to give yourself God mode?

Is the result any different?

 

...The result may be the same - winning the game. But the means to get this result are different - by personal skill, or by cheating.

Do you mean playing the game so well that you take one step and the enemies stop chasing you, then you take another step and they turn around to chase you again, and then you take a step back and they stop chasing you again, until some of them forget to chase you and you only have to fight one guy at a time?

Personal skill like that?

Edited April 18, 2015 by Incendax

[Ceranai]

My complaint was nothing to do with cheese as I'm a big fan of dairy. My complaint was that your build is pretty simplistic to the point of "anything that doesn't increase deflection is a waste of time"

 

Which I contest as I think it's a pretty ineffective way to play a tank. Warriors have a great base accuracy so by dumping dex you are ensuring one of your most reliable hitters basically never does anything.

 

A stationary, no damage dealing meat shield is actually a terrible tank because it brings nothing to the team that you can't get from a doorway

[Eos]

My complaint was nothing to do with cheese as I'm a big fan of dairy. My complaint was that your build is pretty simplistic to the point of "anything that doesn't increase deflection is a waste of time"

 

Which I contest as I think it's a pretty ineffective way to play a tank. Warriors have a great base accuracy so by dumping dex you are ensuring one of your most reliable hitters basically never does anything.

 

A stationary, no damage dealing meat shield is actually a terrible tank because it brings nothing to the team that you can't get from a doorway

 

Well, you do need someone to stand in that doorway..

[Ceranai]

 

My complaint was nothing to do with cheese as I'm a big fan of dairy. My complaint was that your build is pretty simplistic to the point of "anything that doesn't increase deflection is a waste of time"

Which I contest as I think it's a pretty ineffective way to play a tank. Warriors have a great base accuracy so by dumping dex you are ensuring one of your most reliable hitters basically never does anything.

A stationary, no damage dealing meat shield is actually a terrible tank because it brings nothing to the team that you can't get from a doorway

 

 

Well, you do need someone to stand in that doorway..

Yea but you want that person to do more than just sit there playing with themselves

[omgFIREBALLS]

If I put a sword in your hand, and you couldn't hit me even after a dozen of your best swings, would you reconsider your tactics?

I would get you nerfed motherf-

 

I might see the futility of my efforts but perhaps I'd be as likely to flee as to try to run past you. I think it's an absurd idea either way to strive to get hit as a tank. A tank should be good at handling incoming damage and at directing it at him. That the latter part comes trivially unless you're not alone in melee doesn't mean we should give up the former to be nice to the AI.

 

Which I contest as I think it's a pretty ineffective way to play a tank. Warriors have a great base accuracy so by dumping dex you are ensuring one of your most reliable hitters basically never does anything.

 

A stationary, no damage dealing meat shield is actually a terrible tank because it brings nothing to the team that you can't get from a doorway

He's still sporting a shield which is the worst weapon setup for damage. He still has no big hitting abilities.

 

I don't see this obsession with making your tank a one man army. He never needs to be one. It's all about how well your party can handle the fights. My cannons can be made of glass when their tank is made of diamond.

[Ceranai]

 

If I put a sword in your hand, and you couldn't hit me even after a dozen of your best swings, would you reconsider your tactics?

 

I would get you nerfed motherf-

 

I might see the futility of my efforts but perhaps I'd be as likely to flee as to try to run past you. I think it's an absurd idea either way to strive to get hit as a tank. A tank should be good at handling incoming damage and at directing it at him. That the latter part comes trivially unless you're not alone in melee doesn't mean we should give up the former to be nice to the AI.

 

Which I contest as I think it's a pretty ineffective way to play a tank. Warriors have a great base accuracy so by dumping dex you are ensuring one of your most reliable hitters basically never does anything.

A stationary, no damage dealing meat shield is actually a terrible tank because it brings nothing to the team that you can't get from a doorway

 

He's still sporting a shield which is the worst weapon setup for damage. He still has no big hitting abilities.

 

I don't see this obsession with making your tank a one man army. He never needs to be one. It's all about how well your party can handle the fights. My cannons can be made of glass when their tank is made of diamond.

Straw man argument. There is a big difference between useless hunk of metal who blocks doorways and tank who can do things and there is also a big difference between tank that can do things and a one man army.

 

I'm not saying a fighter should tank,dps, juggle, do backflips and yodel at the same time. I am saying that reducing him to a hunk of metal that just stands there isn't gettimg the most out of your team

[omgFIREBALLS]

By one man army I mean getting locked up on the individual damage output of the fighter rather than considering how much more he enables everyone else to do by being so sturdy that he can be surrounded by mobs and still take some friendly fire if need be.

 

I just don't find giving up tankiness for damage to be to any degree desirable. It can be affordable, depending on group composition, difficulty setting, encounter, player skill, etc. Certainly my all-out tank is tremendously overkill for many "named" fights even on PotD, but it's not like if he hit 10% harder and 10% faster he'd make any noticeable impact on how fast they go down.

 

When it comes to really tough fights, he needs to be the best tank he can be. That means getting as much attention as possible and surviving it. Speaking of which, that actually is a bit of a case for dexterity, as it would (presumably) help him chain chug potions. Regardless, if I were looking to improve the damage output, I could spend an hour before even looking at the drop-in-the-ocean damage the tank is dealing compared to the glass cannons. In fact, I think I'll go take on the vithrack bounty and tally up the damage done by every party member.

 

In the end, improving your tank's damage output is a luxury. Unless there's some tough fight where monsters simply ignore him, I wouldn't want to make any permanent sacrifices of tankiness in favor of damage output, because it might just bite me in the ass. But the lower the difficulty level and the greater the player's skill, the more affordable the trade is. Stay tuned for damage meterz.

 

edit for damage meterz.

 

1) Cipher: 937.5 (actually surprised myself how much AoE damage they do at max level now)

2) Druid: 583.1

3) Wizard: 177.9

4) Rogue: 77.0

5) Fighter: 0.7 (not sure when he even got that damage off, he was paralyzed the whole fight)

6) Priest: 0.0

 

This is PotD for clarification. Now I know the paralysis makes it a half-unfair comparison. Only half though, because as the primary target you gotta expect that CC effects will mess up your efforts to do anything. But still, nobody touched the rogue and she did... 77. She waited a bit for buffs before running in, then got off one shot before the brief AoE festival took care of everything. Hell even the rogue looks pretty sad here, and I doubt you'll contend that your slightly-offensive tank is going to surpass a rogue's damage. I'll tally up numbers from other interesting fights... hell if you have any requests just shoot, but know what I have left is mostly Endless Paths and act 3 content.

Edited April 18, 2015 by omgFIREBALLS

[gkathellar]

OP - you're undervaluing Dwarves for one minor reason. Dropping Dex to 2 gives you an attribute point to spend somewhere else. Not a huge deal, but worth noting.

 

Straw man argument.

 

Not what that means.

 

 

There is a big difference between useless hunk of metal who blocks doorways and tank who can do things

 

This, on the other hand, is a textbook use of a strawman - you are setting up the other party's proposal (low Dexterity) as something that it isn't (useless hunk of metal [never mind that it's a contradiction to call something useless and then immediately supply a use for it]), in order to make your own look better. You may not be doing it on purpose, you may not even be aware of it, but that's what it is.

 

In any case, Dexterity below 10 really doesn't matter as much as you think it does. A Dex 2 sword-and-shield can reliably and regularly pump out enough damage to be useful - they just won't be a top damage dealer by any means

 

there is also a big difference between tank that can do things and a one man army.

 

There can be a difference, but there's not necessarily one. People have triple crown solo'd this game with heavy tanks.

 

 

I am saying that reducing him to a hunk of metal that just stands there isn't gettimg the most out of your team

 

Even if dumping Dex did that (it doesn't, see above), it might still be, depending on the team.

 

Mind you, a paladin would be a better useless hunk of metal, but that's just a question of opportunity costs.

 

I happen to agree with you, btw. Due to a mix of damage-increasing and self-healing abilities, the absolute most optimal use of a fighter is as a strong off-tank. I don't see how low Dex prevents them from performing as such, but there are good arguments for having at least average Dex on your off-tank fighter. A pure tank fighter is a wannabe paladin.

[omgFIREBALLS]

A pure tank fighter is a wannabe paladin.

Indulge me. I found fighters superior but that was before I knew that FaC only works for the Watcher. Why are paladins better?

 

Side note: My previous post is a bit from the perspective of "IF YOU USE MY PLAYSTYLE THEN ETC ETC" but I don't think endgame fighter tanks are going to do significant amounts of damage outside contrived situations.

[gkathellar]

 

A pure tank fighter is a wannabe paladin.

Indulge me. I found fighters superior but that was before I knew that FaC only works for the Watcher. Why are paladins better?

 

Side note: My previous post is a bit from the perspective of "IF YOU USE MY PLAYSTYLE THEN ETC ETC" but I don't think endgame fighter tanks are going to do significant amounts of damage outside contrived situations.

 

 

Higher all-around defenses, mainly. Supportive things to do while tanking, to a lesser extent.

 

It's by a small margin, but I do think that as a pure 100% tank, paladin pulls ahead and stays ahead.

 

A lot of what fighters use to tank is based on taking hits and then recovering from them. That's great if you're expecting to take hits, but in PoE, a pure tank looks to avoid them outright.

[Kolbot]

one point for fighter tank is the abitity to aggro with Defender and Hold the Line

 

Humain Soldier, 2hand burster, something like 19/7/8/18/6/20, will do the job

[Crucis]

Well there seems to be a heated debate about how a tank should be, instead of addressing the posts one by one I'll just state some things.

 

First and foremost this is not an RP guide, so arguments like "tanking this way is not realist" or "This is a cheesy build" are not valid.

 

Many here believe that a tank should be able to do more than just tanking, i don't since this is all about the dedicated tank. And while It is possible that hybrid is more effective than a dedicated tank, it requires more micromanaging to work. Still, i appreciate the feedback and I'll use the advice while writing the hybrid guide.

 

I have updated the main post, thanks to everyone who participated in the thread. I'll add KDubya build once i get to write about the hybrid fighter.

 

My disagreement is more fundamental than this.  I don't accept the definition of a "tank" or "tanking" as one which is solely about being impossible to hit merely to suck in enemies to attack you for no better reason than you're abusing the game's AI.  My definition of a "tank" is one where the character tries to be difficult to hit or, at least, damage while at the same time being a respectable offensive force as well.  To me, there's nothing whatsoever "hybrid" about a fighter that is capable of dealing a respectable amount of damage while being able to defend himself.  To me, that's what they're supposed to do in the first place.

 

EDIT: Regarding whether a so-called hybrid requires more micro-managing, not necessarily.  I played Eder in the style I've been discussing here and he lead my first party in damage on my first run, though not by a huge amount.  That said, I will concede that if he was more closely managed he might have done more damage.  But honestly, I wasn't all that concerned with him doing amazing levels of damage.  I was happy with what I was getting out of him.  And saved my micromanaging for the spellcasters.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Crucis

[Crucis]

This will never end I guess .. so building tank in way that s/he is hard to hit or almost impossible to hit is cheese? Maybe Lionel Messi with his untouchable dribbling is cheese.

 

If said character is so incompetent that it can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside, you betcha it's cheese.

[Crucis]

 

Well, the first order of business is deciding if it is cheese.

 

So you pump your deflection so high the AI cannot hit you, but still continues to try...

Is that equivalent to attacking an enemy who is just standing there bugged and not attacking you back?

Is the result any different?

I have some sympathy for the minmax distaste, but not for this. Are you saying the enemy is supposed to know he can't hit you? Are the mobs reading the accuracy rolls?

 

I mean you could also argue your rogue shouldn't get too much offensive power. Not talking "at the expense of defense" even, just too much per se. Because then they could oneshot vulnerable enemies like wizards. And they would be stupid to engage you because they will lose off that instakill. This is a thread about optimization and I think three times now it's been posted that you shouldn't get so much deflection that you're unhittable because that's not fair to the AI.

 

 

Without carefully rereading, I'm gonna take the risk and say that you're stretching the facts out of all proportion here.  I don't think that anyone has said what you claim.  It's got nothing to do with "being fair" to the AI.  It's all about being nothing but a cheesy rules lawyer by creating an all-defense, no-offense character that abuses the "rules" of the game (as built into the AI), because you know those "rules" and the AI can only obey them.  In any pencil and paper RPG, the GM would teach you the error of your ways in a heart beat in any number of painful ways.  But in a cRPG, the GM (i.e. the game itself) can only do what it's programed to do.  And is often (usually?) incapable of coming up with counters to rule-abusing, rule-lawyering players.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't think an offensive fighter would pose any significant threat so that sentient enemies would fear running by him anyway. If AI was acting tactically tanking would be useless in this game except for blocking doorways.

[Vadász]

If the idea of building a deflection tank was not in the minds of the developers, why would they make it so easy to reach invulnerability in the default difficulty level?

 

Even without min maxing, a fighter who just picks picks some no brainer talents (Defender, wary defender and weapon and shield) and following the game advice to pump resolve, will still be able to get mostly grazes and no crits in normal/hard. The problem is that to maintain that playstyle in PoTD you are required to make some sacrifices, there's not other way around it.

 

You may think that PotD is meant to be played with sub optimal builds and by not abusing the AI, but most players don't care if something is cheesy, they just want an effective character to help them get their achievements, this guide helps them do that imo.

 

You should write a RP/Play Fair guide and put your builds in there, i'll even be glad to offer my advice on that since i know a thing or two about RPing too, but talking about this in this thread is moot.

[MadDemiurg]

I think dominance of the deflection attacking enemies is a part of the problem. More offensive spellcasters in the game would make deflection less valuable and constitution more valuable. Still when your fighter gets petrified you kinda wish that you've taken that bull's fortitude (not that it would help much against POTD accuracy though)

Edited April 18, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[omgFIREBALLS]

Without carefully rereading, I'm gonna take the risk and say that you're stretching the facts out of all proportion here.  I don't think that anyone has said what you claim.

Post #25, then #28 where you agree with an "Exactly", then #48.

 

Higher all-around defenses, mainly.

148/95/115/113 selfbuffed on my fighter who probably isn't getting better. Plus, given the brief duration of most fights, I could pretty much slap another 20 on everything. How high does a paladin get?

Edited April 18, 2015 by omgFIREBALLS

[Ceranai]

If the idea of building a deflection tank was not in the minds of the developers, why would they make it so easy to reach invulnerability in the default difficulty level?

 

Even without min maxing, a fighter who just picks picks some no brainer talents (Defender, wary defender and weapon and shield) and following the game advice to pump resolve, will still be able to get mostly grazes and no crits in normal/hard. The problem is that to maintain that playstyle in PoTD you are required to make some sacrifices, there's not other way around it.

 

You may think that PotD is meant to be played with sub optimal builds and by not abusing the AI, but most players don't care if something is cheesy, they just want an effective character to help them get their achievements, this guide helps them do that imo.

 

You should write a RP/Play Fair guide and put your builds in there, i'll even be glad to offer my advice on that since i know a thing or two about RPing too, but talking about this in this thread is moot.

Again its not the cheese that i disagree with, its that you dont have to mix max to get a high enough deflection to deflect everything, and your dismissal of other skills as useless means you wont be getting the most out of your tank.

 

EG knockdowns are important and fighters get access to two good ones, you dont see the point in reflexes and you value int over dex, one of which makes a couple of abilities longer and the other gives you faster abilities and an attack speed that isnt laughable

[omgFIREBALLS]

EG knockdowns are important and fighters get access to two good ones, you dont see the point in reflexes and you value int over dex, one of which makes a couple of abilities longer and the other gives you faster abilities and an attack speed that isnt laughable

If by reflexes you mean the reflex save I gotta mention that that is my fighter's highest save (115 reflex 113 will), with rock bottom dexterity, with 15 or so int and the +10 will talent on top of that. The Weapon and Shield talent just does so much.

 

I think the will save is the most important though as it can be so devastating to have your tank get confused/charmed/dominated.

 

Obviously I'm still very uncaring for attack speed but just the thought of chaining abilities/items faster is a good point for minding your dexterity.

[Psychevore]

This is my fighter's build. It only has one job: be a fortress.

 

Moon Godlike Fire Godlike

 

Might: 14

Con: 11

Dex: 10

Per: 18

Int: 6

Res: 19 (Aedyr background)

 

M+C for combined fortitude save of +10

I+R for combined will save of +10

P+R for combined deflection of +17

D+P for combined reflex save of +16

 

And of course, Moon Godlike Fire Godlike for being.. godlike. (Aumaua body type)

 

Think I'm going to go for an all Godlike custom party. Main character (Cipher) is Death Godlike.

 

EDIT: decided for Fire Godlike instead. Moon Godlike will go to the still to build Paladin, synergizes better in my opinion.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Psychevore

[zeppos]

This may (or may not) be the best fighter build guide around, but it's clearly one of the most comprehensive ones I found on the Internet. Good job!

[Ransurian]

I'm probably resurrecting an old thread here, but it's the first -- and most helpful, prior to 2.0 -- post on Fighter tanks I managed to stumble across. As of 2.0, this guide is now outdated.

[Killyox]

/cry

 

necro

Edited August 26, 2015 by Killyox