Doesn't build diversity feel a tad....limited?

[cycbersnaek]

 

It feels as though 90% of talents and abilities are garbage, to the point where any attempt to innovate and try something new is just a lost cause. It almost feels like the class talents were the only ones with any real thought or effort put into them, and aside from those there's just a handful of good all-class talents to put to use, with many being pretty weak.

  Likewise the whole game feels very....controlled. There's a very limited range of additional accuracy you can gain permanently, as is the case with a lot of stats. What I mean is it doesn't really feel as though it'd be possible to build a character that's insanely good at offense but obviously lacking in defense, like even if you tried your hardest to achieve this, the stats are controlled enough and the scope of what stats you can gain is small enough that no character is gonna stand out as truly unique, and all Ciphers or Wizards are gonna feel more or less the same. I understand that of course the stats need to be controlled to a degree lest there be stupid broken overpowered builds or the like, but I guess I'm still disappointed in the range and scope of what you can accomplish. Customizing squads can feel unique, but customizing individual characters seems like it'll get old fast...

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Somewhat agree. I feel like most if not all of the Defense and Utility talents will never make it into any serious character build.

 

There really is a way to make a crappy character, unlike what the devs were saying before release. I guess if you really wanted you could take some ridiculously bad talents in those trees every level.

 

 

Defense talents aren't bad, I take them for my tank and my off tank.  I don't understand what's limited?

 

Take rogue for example:

 

dual stiletto meelee rogue

sword and board tanking or dps rogue

2h backrow rogue

range rogue

 

there are plenty of choices just for 1 class... It's a good start for a game with expansions coming.

[Gromnir]

some o' the more horrible utility talents were added 'cause backers requested 'em.  thank goodness for developer responsiveness, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Luckmann]

I was brainstorming this when trying to make the suckier talents more viable and less boring. This is just idle musing.

 

Elemental Master=Scion of Flame+Spirit of Decay+Secrets of Rime+Heart of the Storm

Weapon Focus    =Is just +6 Accuracy to all weapons (Cuz use whatever weapons you effing want. Seriously.Alternatively you choose whatever 4 weapons you wanted for your concept. Master of guns? Wizard with Quarterstaff, Rod, Scepter, Wand? IE Wizard with Quarterstaff, crossbow, dagger, wand? But this makes the talent reward metagame information so I decided on making it universal.)

Weapon Master   =All weapon styles (Same as weapon focus. This really doesnt do anything amazing. Just lets you decide to try out dual wielding for awhile before settling on using a great sword or a sword and shield.)

Gunman          =Marksman+Gunner+Close Shooter

Hard to Kill    =Bears Fortitude, Bulls Will, Snakes Reflexes+Superior Deflection

Fancy Footwork  =Shot On the Run+Fast Runner+Graceful Retreat+Unstoppable

Spell Master    =Bonus Spell of level 1,2.3 and 4 (By levels 9 & 12 the first two talents are a waste anyways and this puts this talent in line with the rings of wizardry. Honestly this still wouldnt even be very good. By level 12 I had more spells than I could possibly use in a fight. But it's something nice at early levels casuals will pick and have more fun in the class.)

Blood Knight    =Bloody Slaughter+Hold the Line+Body Control+Mental Fortress

Medic           =Wound Binding, Field Triage and Envenomed Strike (I still wouldn't take it actually but now at least you heal a decent amount of health.)

Loaded for Bear =Arms Bearer+Quick Switch

The modals can stay

I'd just remove Dangerous Implement but I know it has its uses for edge cases.

 

Hilariously the bad talents are so bad even combining them with the more useful ones isnt much of a boost to a characters power.

 

These should also be a lot clearer for casual players which ones are really going to help your build.

Oh god, what the hell? Seriously, what the hell? All of my what the hells.

 

some o' the more horrible utility talents were added 'cause backers requested 'em.  thank goodness for developer responsiveness, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Like which?

 

And asking for something doesn't equal asking for it to suck.

[knownastherat]

Talents do not have to be equal. There is no need to play the so-called optimal builds. If someone believe that by taking certain talent(s) will "gimp" character and that is not "proper" way of playing role playing game is fine but has no bearing on anything. There are options, most of not all of them are viable to take to PotD.

 

But I will be missing + 6 acc if I take + 10 reflex instead which is game breaking to gimp my character like that!

 

cool story bro

 

Stories are cool but nobody cares. If you have suggestions how to balance - another notion I do not quite understand in single player RPG - talents, lets see them. The debaters are waiting.

[Exoduss]

One of the problems with Defense and Utility talents are that if you want them you have to skip some of your class talents and on most of the classes thats not a good choice 

[drumther]

Maybe this is all just lack of creatitive and just whinning about some builds being more efficient than others?

[Gromnir]

 

I was brainstorming this when trying to make the suckier talents more viable and less boring. This is just idle musing.

 

Elemental Master=Scion of Flame+Spirit of Decay+Secrets of Rime+Heart of the Storm

Weapon Focus    =Is just +6 Accuracy to all weapons (Cuz use whatever weapons you effing want. Seriously.Alternatively you choose whatever 4 weapons you wanted for your concept. Master of guns? Wizard with Quarterstaff, Rod, Scepter, Wand? IE Wizard with Quarterstaff, crossbow, dagger, wand? But this makes the talent reward metagame information so I decided on making it universal.)

Weapon Master   =All weapon styles (Same as weapon focus. This really doesnt do anything amazing. Just lets you decide to try out dual wielding for awhile before settling on using a great sword or a sword and shield.)

Gunman          =Marksman+Gunner+Close Shooter

Hard to Kill    =Bears Fortitude, Bulls Will, Snakes Reflexes+Superior Deflection

Fancy Footwork  =Shot On the Run+Fast Runner+Graceful Retreat+Unstoppable

Spell Master    =Bonus Spell of level 1,2.3 and 4 (By levels 9 & 12 the first two talents are a waste anyways and this puts this talent in line with the rings of wizardry. Honestly this still wouldnt even be very good. By level 12 I had more spells than I could possibly use in a fight. But it's something nice at early levels casuals will pick and have more fun in the class.)

Blood Knight    =Bloody Slaughter+Hold the Line+Body Control+Mental Fortress

Medic           =Wound Binding, Field Triage and Envenomed Strike (I still wouldn't take it actually but now at least you heal a decent amount of health.)

Loaded for Bear =Arms Bearer+Quick Switch

The modals can stay

I'd just remove Dangerous Implement but I know it has its uses for edge cases.

 

Hilariously the bad talents are so bad even combining them with the more useful ones isnt much of a boost to a characters power.

 

These should also be a lot clearer for casual players which ones are really going to help your build.

Oh god, what the hell? Seriously, what the hell? All of my what the hells.

 

some o' the more horrible utility talents were added 'cause backers requested 'em.  thank goodness for developer responsiveness, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Like which?

 

And asking for something doesn't equal asking for it to suck.

 

examples: the wound binding and triage kinda stuff were added after boardie appeals.  those features were gonna suck 'cause o' the way endurance and health work in poe, but the features is in game as requested.  the board community can be dumb to the point o' insensibility.  is reason we ended up with the bestiary and token lock xp and other such nonsense.  were added to appease a vocal segment rather than to improve gameplay.  go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 17, 2015 by Gromnir

[Shdy314]

Talents do not have to be equal. There is no need to play the so-called optimal builds. If someone believe that by taking certain talent(s) will "gimp" character and that is not "proper" way of playing role playing game is fine but has no bearing on anything. There are options, most of not all of them are viable to take to PotD.

 

But I will be missing + 6 acc if I take + 10 reflex instead which is game breaking to gimp my character like that!

 

cool story bro

 

Stories are cool but nobody cares. If you have suggestions how to balance - another notion I do not quite understand in single player RPG - talents, lets see them. The debaters are waiting.

You are incredibly naive. Yes talents do need to be "equal." You only get freaking 6 of them. Picking 6 stupid ones leads to a much less fun character. If someone doesnt understand how defenses work and they pick Bear's Fortitude and (big surprise) it does practically nothing for them, then it isn't that the class is gimped. It's that they just wasted one of only 6 limited resources they can never get back. That is in direct violation of Obsidian's stated design goal of not having trap crap.

 

 

Oh god, what the hell? Seriously, what the hell? All of my what the hells.

Confused? It's not exactly complicated. Even you should understand the post.

 

The hell is reducing the universal talents down to a small pool that will do something for pretty much any character and that are also much clearer for casuals. Cast spells? Spell Master is obvious and will help them do exactly what it says. 4 separate spell bonus talents that individually are outshone by some rings and require knowledge of what happens at level 9 and 11 to evaluate properly are terrible for new players. Weapon focus requires knowing what weapon you've settled on for the end of the game. That's just stupid.

 

Consolidating them also means a tank build or dps build can actually afford some variety. This would only marginally increase characters powers because the bad talents are really bad. I should also point out I am very much in favor of increasing the difficulty. Some enemies should be either immune or have sky high defenses to some effets. They need to target better, have some more foe only aoe etc. So Im not just trying to argue for characters to be even more overpowered.

[knownastherat]

Much less fun character? As it was noted, perhaps lack of creativity, invention and adaptation is the real cause of "not being fun", who knows. I can understand that for some only playing what they believe to be the most powerful character is fun. For others its fun to try different builds while utilizing their strengths and minimizing weaknesses. There is no measure to fun.

 

Regardless, they cannot be equal for one simple fact: its not possible to measure and compare them. For example, One-Handed Style. Who has the numbers on how many grazes per play through there are and how does it compare to + 6 accuracy for example? Nobody. Maybe Obsidian. And if nobody has the numbers, telling stories and anecdotes maybe be part of gaming community life but it tells little about factual state of events.

 

If someone is stupid or ignorant or lazy or slacking it is not my problem nor in my opinion should be problem for Obsidian. It does not even matter if such someone picks Field Triage instead of Ruffian because that someone will not notice the difference. Wasted 6 limited resources .. RPGs are about choices and consequences.

 

Except maybe one post,  there are not any suggestions except stating opinions, constructing arguments and telling stories. Metaphysics never proved anything.

[Seramus]

It feels as though 90% of talents and abilities are garbage, to the point where any attempt to innovate and try something new is just a lost cause. It almost feels like the class talents were the only ones with any real thought or effort put into them, and aside from those there's just a handful of good all-class talents to put to use, with many being pretty weak.

  Likewise the whole game feels very....controlled. There's a very limited range of additional accuracy you can gain permanently, as is the case with a lot of stats. What I mean is it doesn't really feel as though it'd be possible to build a character that's insanely good at offense but obviously lacking in defense, like even if you tried your hardest to achieve this, the stats are controlled enough and the scope of what stats you can gain is small enough that no character is gonna stand out as truly unique, and all Ciphers or Wizards are gonna feel more or less the same. I understand that of course the stats need to be controlled to a degree lest there be stupid broken overpowered builds or the like, but I guess I'm still disappointed in the range and scope of what you can accomplish. Customizing squads can feel unique, but customizing individual characters seems like it'll get old fast...

10% of talents and abilities are overpowered, and 90% are far more reasonable. It also depends on what difficulty you play on. Almost every game in existence with difficulty levels and stats suffers from increasingly narrow successful builds as you increase in difficulty. But I'm not trying to be an apologist. There are definitely a few stinkers out there when it comes to talents and abilities.

 

Bounded Accuracy is an intentional thing in game design, so you will also find that in a lot of games. It's normal. The stats are definitely controlled enough and the scope of what stats you can gain is small enough that no character is gonna be completely broken. Considering you think 90% of the talents and abilities are garbage, I am inclined to think that your disappointment in the range and scope is unfounded.

[rk47]

Its the side effect of rushed release.

description of talents are not even done.

There are way too many outright garbage talents.

But overall, the fun is not building a character, but building a party.

[drumther]

Its the side effect of rushed release.

description of talents are not even done.

There are way too many outright garbage talents.

But overall, the fun is not building a character, but building a party.

 

/thread

[b0rsuk]

It's not the build diversity, it's your imagination.

[Blovski]

Depends on difficulty and how willing you are to go with some things that are not the greatest things ever. I think it's much less systematically limited than the old IE and Black Isles games were (BG games by the equipment being the only really big choices for most classes and the optimal stat layouts for any class, IWD 2 and Fallout by prerequisite stats and perks requiring foreknowledge to make halfway decent characters.


 

 

Elemental Master=Scion of Flame+Spirit of Decay+Secrets of Rime+Heart of the Storm

Weapon Focus    =Is just +6 Accuracy to all weapons (Cuz use whatever weapons you effing want. Seriously.Alternatively you choose whatever 4 weapons you wanted for your concept. Master of guns? Wizard with Quarterstaff, Rod, Scepter, Wand? IE Wizard with Quarterstaff, crossbow, dagger, wand? But this makes the talent reward metagame information so I decided on making it universal.)

Weapon Master   =All weapon styles (Same as weapon focus. This really doesnt do anything amazing. Just lets you decide to try out dual wielding for awhile before settling on using a great sword or a sword and shield.)

Gunman          =Marksman+Gunner+Close Shooter

Hard to Kill    =Bears Fortitude, Bulls Will, Snakes Reflexes+Superior Deflection

Fancy Footwork  =Shot On the Run+Fast Runner+Graceful Retreat+Unstoppable

Spell Master    =Bonus Spell of level 1,2.3 and 4 (By levels 9 & 12 the first two talents are a waste anyways and this puts this talent in line with the rings of wizardry. Honestly this still wouldnt even be very good. By level 12 I had more spells than I could possibly use in a fight. But it's something nice at early levels casuals will pick and have more fun in the class.)

Blood Knight    =Bloody Slaughter+Hold the Line+Body Control+Mental Fortress

Medic           =Wound Binding, Field Triage and Envenomed Strike (I still wouldn't take it actually but now at least you heal a decent amount of health.)

Loaded for Bear =Arms Bearer+Quick Switch

Largely seem to be reducing the number of options so all the characters will have the same superperks?

Elemental perks are all reasonably strong if you rely on certain types of spell (especially as +damage makes a bigger difference vs DR). I don't see the need to have them all combined.
Weapon Focus and the Weapon Styles are obviously ways of differentiating your builds. I don't see how it's a more meaningful choice to have one perk for everyone. Given accuracy is scarce on options to increase it these talents are generally very good.
Gunman: Marksman's a great perk, people seem to be getting mileage out of gunner, Close Shooter is perhaps the only one of these that doesn't really get a lot of respect.
Hard to Kill: Again, lumping a load of choices into one choice is limiting builds rather than expanding them. Increasing the individual bonuses on the non-deflection ones is probably better.
Fancy Footwork: Wow that's a lot of perks.
Spell Master: Balance between the perk being useful when you get it and at higher level. I'd take level 2 spells on my Priest any day just because of how much I use that circle of healing one. If I was cheesier my wizard would like an extra level 4 spell for confusion.
Bloody Knight: These perks aren't bad enough independently that they need to be combined. Increasing the individual buffs to defences against particular things or reducing durations of effects a little would be better.
Medic: Wound Binding and Triage are a bit lousy, I'll give you that. I'm guessing you don't realise that envenomed strike is attacks that bypass *all* DR. Makes a big difference if you're going for a relatively low damage build (like a Ranger with Hunting Bow) and need an option to chip in against the really high DR enemies.
Loaded for Bear: There are strong builds that rely on having both of these and a racial selection as well. Not sure how much they need combining.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Blovski

[lord_wc]

I would argue that build diversity is quite good in this game compared to other class based CRPGs that there are.

The main shortcoming of this game is the extremely rigid class system which doesn't allow branching out. The situation is even worse as there are no talents that give tradeoffs, negate shortcomings or at least interesting. The whole system is extremely immature, it's like comparing a money grab flash tcg to magic - you just don't have that many options and even that you have are rudimentary and simple.

 

Limited build diversity is the child of the min-max mindset.  First the system gets torn apart to identify "the best" options available, then all other options are rejected, then the system is criticized for lacking options.  This has nothing to do with the system itself; for any system, a given person will only find a limited set of choices to be "the best" because "the best" implies stratification of the available choices and rejection of all but a limited number of them.

 

The only solution to this problem is to be content to make suboptimal choices.

No. The system is bad because there is a best choice. In D&D for example there isn't a best choice - there are hundreds of builds for different roles all trading off something for something else. Here? Someone is either a good class or not, end of story. 

 

disagree with original premise.  for a crpg based on a new rule system, we see great diversity being offered.  one need not look too hard on these boards to see folks arguing 'bout how best to make use o' various classes.  is not much consensus.  is not consensus precisely because there is viable alternatives. heck, we saw one joker tell us that a tanky priest is better than a tanky paladin.  the fact that we got so much potential diversity in a brand spanking new class-based system with 11 freaking classes impresses the heck outta Gromnir.  we loathe class systems, but am admitting that the developers has done an admirable job providing options for character development.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps recognition that poe offers much diversity o' choice in character building doesn't mean we is satisfied. we want more options, but am admitted greedy.

That's simply not true. If you want a ranged dps for example there is a very-very clearly outlined class-race combination to do so. In a good class system however you could make 100 such builds all superior to the other in certain aspects and lacking in other areas. Currently you are saying that the game is good because it has a wrench. I'm saying that wrenches should come in different sizes if you want to use them. If I had to name just one lackluster area in the game it would be the class system. So much missed opportunity, the original ideas are so great but then the mechanics are just horrible.

Edited April 17, 2015 by lord_wc

[Longknife]

Its the side effect of rushed release.

description of talents are not even done.

There are way too many outright garbage talents.

But overall, the fun is not building a character, but building a party.

 

 

This I can agree with, but surely you can agree better character diversity would also increase the fun of building a party.

[Gromnir]

 

 

disagree with original premise.  for a crpg based on a new rule system, we see great diversity being offered.  one need not look too hard on these boards to see folks arguing 'bout how best to make use o' various classes.  is not much consensus.  is not consensus precisely because there is viable alternatives. heck, we saw one joker tell us that a tanky priest is better than a tanky paladin.  the fact that we got so much potential diversity in a brand spanking new class-based system with 11 freaking classes impresses the heck outta Gromnir.  we loathe class systems, but am admitting that the developers has done an admirable job providing options for character development.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps recognition that poe offers much diversity o' choice in character building doesn't mean we is satisfied. we want more options, but am admitted greedy.

That's simply not true. If you want a ranged dps for example there is a very-very clearly outlined class-race combination to do so. In a good class system however you could make 100 such builds all superior to the other in certain aspects and lacking in other areas. Currently you are saying that the game is good because it has a wrench. I'm saying that wrenches should come in different sizes if you want to use them. If I had to name just one lackluster area in the game it would be the class system. So much missed opportunity, the original ideas are so great but then the mechanics are just horrible.

 

am not sure what your wrench metaphor is trying to convey.  poe uses a class system.  there ain't no point in having classes if those classes can all do the same stuff but with talents and abilities that bear different names.  if every class is capable o' tanking and dps and support and whatever other label you feel most comfortable with, then it would make far more sense to have no classes at all and let the player build a tanky paladin or a cc wizard with a classless system that maximizes customization.  nevertheless, if you is gonna offer classes, you better make there be a point to such a limitation.  if a player gets sad-faced 'cause they can't play a tanky priest in poe as they did in 3.5 d&d, we ain't gonna shed no tears for such folks.  wanna make a more durable support character in poe, then you got such options with chanter and paladins depending on your talent and ability and attribute choices.  wanna ranged dps in poe?  fine.  if you like weapons to deal damage, play a rogue or a ranger.  perhaps choose to  be a cipher or a druid if you like casting.  is some surprisingly deadly paladin gunner builds if you want to dps and be a bit less o' a glass cannon while providing support as well.  we got pipe wrenches and socket wrenches and even allen wrenches.   if all you see is wrenches...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[LilSassy]

Yeah, I'm just hoping that things will be improved on later. My main gripe is with so many spells not being so much useless as much as overshadowed by other spells. Boiling Spray immediately comes to mind.

 

Besides that, I also think a good deal of the talents and class abilities are pretty lackluster for the same reason. All I would really like is more of a balance between everything.