PoE Sales?

[Sven_]

I've hated the "opening dungeon" design philosophy since BG II.

 

 

 

I wouldn't class the opening dungeon of Baldur's Gate II a tutorial though. Actually, it's pretty hardcore and fairly long with some tough encounters, especially if you're not familiar with the mechanics. TES has opened with a dungeon ever since Arena (Morrowind is the only exception in the entire series, if you don't count the spin-offs) -- going back to my first one, Daggerfall, I think this is intentionally done. I think it took me hours to find the exit on my first run, and then you get out and get some breath of air after being locked into endless caves for days and nights depending on which, and the world really opens up. It is that key moment when you get to realize you're free to explore and go wherever you wish. Probably BG II was aiming for the same thing, considering that you'll immediately get to a big city in bright day-light. But yeah, the flipside of design like this is that you have to repeat this each and every time you start a new game and character (and the TES design has become a lot more tutorial-ish in recent titles... which naturally goes along to streamlining the mechanics and making them ever more accessible for just about anyone. I think Pillars did pretty good in avoiding that kind of feel overall).

Edited April 19, 2015 by Sven_

[Namutree]

I wish I could see it as a good thing for the future, that Bethesda would use the money to return to their roots and make another great game like Morrowind... but I doubt it. They liked the oversimplification of Skyrim, and I don't think they will stray from it. A pity.

 

 

It's funny to how much people love Morrowind. That was the game that took Elder Scrolls down the casual  path. Daggerfall is the apex of Elder Scrolls.

[PrimeJunta]

Gameplay on Morrowind was fairly ghastly but the world was fantastic -- complex, alien, different, beautiful in all kinds of ways. Rising through the ranks of House Telvanni or discovering the Ashlanders or digging into ancient Dwemer ruins was incredibly awesome. Oblivion was just so utterly banal in comparison.

[lazyman]

I have to admit that my troll detector has hard time determining who is trolling and who isn't in this thread, but i'll bite.

 

Daggerfall is the apex of Elder Scrolls.

 

.. seriously? Maybe you played different game than me and pretty much every other Daggerfall player. It was insane bugfest with incredibly bad dungeons, mechanics, combat, UI, .. I'd play first Arena any time rather than that .. thing.

 

 

 

also skyrim is watered down, simplified RPG that cater to the less intelligent mass, of course it sells more

Such a shame, what the genre has degenerated into, that games like Skyrim sell that high, and the insult that they are consindered rpgames.

I would be fine with a gaming industry where ES games appealed to a minority of the gamers, but such games being the trend...


If I could describe it with 1 word, that would be 'disappointment'.

 

Err what? PoE is for more intelligent people? Which part? Terrible combat? Abysmal story that rivals D3 in stupidity? Incredibly boring/unremarkable quests and NPCs? Dead, empty world? 

And why the hell shouldn't Skyrim be considered RPG? 

 

[Stun]

Such a shame, what the genre has degenerated into, that games like Skyrim sell that high, and the insult that they are consindered rpgames.

 

I would be fine with a gaming industry where ES games appealed to a minority of the gamers, but such games being the trend...

 

 

If I could describe it with 1 word, that would be 'disappointment'.

This is not a matter of "degeneration". The Elder Scrolls Series as been a financial overachiever for the RPG genre since about 1993. Daggerfall outsold the all the Goldbox games. Morrowind came out during the Heyday era of Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale, and outsold all 4 of those titles combined. Skyrim is just the latest. Edited April 19, 2015 by Stun

[b0rsuk]

Err what? PoE is for more intelligent people? Which part? Terrible combat? Abysmal story that rivals D3 in stupidity? Incredibly boring/unremarkable quests and NPCs? Dead, empty world? 

And why the hell shouldn't Skyrim be considered RPG? 

 

For one, it requires people to read.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77723-how-do-you-guys-bring-yourself-to-read/

 

It's a game for well-read people, or at least people who like to read. Do you want to make a point that well-read people are less intelligent than fans of action movies ? That Pillars of Eternity would be better with cutscenes instead of scripted interactions and books ? That a mature game is a game with gore and sex, gore and sex like Dragon Age 2 ?

[waltc]

 

 

 

According to the SteamSpy data:

PoE: 308k,

 

 

Skyrim: 8,2m.

 

Some magazines report that Skyrim sales on all platforms have reached 20m.

 

Even assuming PoE should reach 1m after a few years, which I feel is optimistic... something about that ratio is terribly depressing . It often seems that the worse the game, the better the sales.

probably 20 m across all consoles.

 

also skyrim have alot more budget than PoE and it is watered down, simplified RPG that cater to the less intelligent mass, of course it sells more

 

Such a shame, what the genre has degenerated into, that games like Skyrim sell that high, and the insult that they are consindered rpgames.

 

I would be fine with a gaming industry where ES games appealed to a minority of the gamers, but such games being the trend...

 

 

If I could describe it with 1 word, that would be 'disappointment'.

 

 

OK, some perspective...Skyrim has been selling for years, has several patches and fixes, and has hundreds of established mods (some of them are excellent) and several expansions to its name.  PoE at this stage in its existence is not comparable...   Check back in four years to see how many copies of PoE have been sold, and then compare the two.

 

Also recall that much of the expense of creating the game was paid out of the Kickstarter and Obsidian had that money secured from day one. 

Edited April 19, 2015 by waltc

[Stun]

If we check back with PoE in 4 years we will probably discover that it hasn't yet approached half of Skyrim's day 1 sales.

 

Thankfully, Sales are not the sole measurement of a game's identity.

[Dadalama]

 

I've hated the "opening dungeon" design philosophy since BG II.

 

 

 

I wouldn't class the opening dungeon of Baldur's Gate II a tutorial though. Actually, it's pretty hardcore and fairly long with some tough encounters, especially if you're not familiar with the mechanics. TES has opened with a dungeon ever since Arena (Morrowind is the only exception in the entire series, if you don't count the spin-offs) -- going back to my first one, Daggerfall, I think this is intentionally done. I think it took me hours to find the exit on my first run, and then you get out and get some breath of air after being locked into endless caves for days and nights depending on which, and the world really opens up. It is that key moment when you get to realize you're free to explore and go wherever you wish. Probably BG II was aiming for the same thing, considering that you'll immediately get to a big city in bright day-light. But yeah, the flipside of design like this is that you have to repeat this each and every time you start a new game and character (and the TES design has become a lot more tutorial-ish in recent titles... which naturally goes along to streamlining the mechanics and making them ever more accessible for just about anyone. I think Pillars did pretty good in avoiding that kind of feel overall).

 

It's not the "Tutorial" aspect that bothers me. I create a lot of characters and much prefer to just "start in town" like in the first baldur's gate. Being forced to go through the same first dungeon each time I make another character I really find tedious. I know you'd have to recrawl certain dungeons every time anyways but it's not as big of a deal if I choose when I do that. 

[Prime-Mover]

 

Err what? PoE is for more intelligent people? Which part? Terrible combat? Abysmal story that rivals D3 in stupidity? Incredibly boring/unremarkable quests and NPCs? Dead, empty world? 

And why the hell shouldn't Skyrim be considered RPG? 

 

For one, it requires people to read.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77723-how-do-you-guys-bring-yourself-to-read/

 

It's a game for well-read people, or at least people who like to read. Do you want to make a point that well-read people are less intelligent than fans of action movies ? That Pillars of Eternity would be better with cutscenes instead of scripted interactions and books ? That a mature game is a game with gore and sex, gore and sex like Dragon Age 2 ?

 

 

What does preference for reading and action movies have to do with intelligence, at all?

[Bryy]

Do you want to make a point that well-read people are less intelligent than fans of action movies ?

No, they are making the point that it is a video game and is no way an indicator of "how smart" someone is.

[constantine]

 

Such a shame, what the genre has degenerated into, that games like Skyrim sell that high, and the insult that they are consindered rpgames.

 

I would be fine with a gaming industry where ES games appealed to a minority of the gamers, but such games being the trend...

 

 

If I could describe it with 1 word, that would be 'disappointment'.

This is not a matter of "degeneration". The Elder Scrolls Series as been a financial overachiever for the RPG genre since about 1993. Daggerfall outsold the all the Goldbox games. Morrowind came out during the Heyday era of Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale, and outsold all 4 of those titles combined. Skyrim is just the latest.

Anyway, ES managed once again to bring us apart in this topic.

 

In the end, it comes down to personal preference. For me, ES games are the devil and the bane of the rpg genre. A flow I watched becoming the trend all those years, branding such open world games as role-playing.

 

I've been trying to like them since back the days of Morrowind. Never did they manage get me invested in the world, offer memorable NPCs or make me feel my actions have impact.

 

Maybe other people are more imaginative and are ok with what the game shows, I'm not. And the games certainly are a large pot offering a big mix of things.

 

I was never content, I prefer a game to do 2 things right than 10 things mediocre. And, in the end, I'm disappointed ES popularity has been shaping up the rpgames of today and tomorrow.

Edited April 19, 2015 by constantine

[demeisen]

In the end, it comes down to personal preference. For me, ES games are the devil and the bane of the rpg genre.

 

Ah.  It helps to consider them as first person shooters, which by play mechanics, they essentially are.  One character instead of a party, first person perspective, you move around with the mouse and aim at things and press a button to fire.

 

Shooters.  Then you don't have to consider them the bane of the RPG genre, of which they are not a member.

 

Helps for me, anyway.

[Rosveen]

 

 

In the end, it comes down to personal preference. For me, ES games are the devil and the bane of the rpg genre.

Ah. It helps to consider them as first person shooters, which by play mechanics, they essentially are. One character instead of a party, first person perspective, you move around with the mouse and aim at things and press a button to fire.

 

Shooters. Then you don't have to consider them the bane of the RPG genre, of which they are not a member.

 

Helps for me, anyway.

If they're shooters, they're pretty damn awesome and I wish more shooters were like them. Because normally shooters bore me to tears.

 

TES games don't force first person view, btw.

[Stun]

Well, not since Daggerfall, anyway.

 

But it does give me a chuckle to learn that, now, in order for a game to be an RPG, it has to be 3rd person and party based. Got it. lol

 

Goodbye Wizardry series; Goodbye Ultima Underworld; Goodbye Eye of the Beholder Series; Goodbye Fallout New Vegas; Goodbye Betrayal at Krondor; Goodbye Ravenloft; Goodbye Might & Magic series.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Stun

[Volourn]

Yeah, I loathe first person but it's stupid to claim that a RPG has to be 1st person or party based. That's plainly moronic to claim that kind of nonsense.

 

 

"Ah. It helps to consider them as first person shooters, which by play mechanics, they essentially are. One character instead of a party, first person perspective, you move around with the mouse and aim at things and press a button to fire.

Shooters. Then you don't have to consider them the bane of the RPG genre, of which they are not a member.

Helps for me, anyway."

 

You don't even know what a RPG actually is, right?

[Valsuelm]

If we check back with PoE in 4 years we will probably discover that it hasn't yet approached half of Skyrim's day 1 sales.

 

Thankfully, Sales are not the sole measurement of a game's identity.

 

Shush. Sales is everything. It denotes everything that matters, including quality. If it wasn't awesome people wouldn't buy it.

 

Justin Bieber is the one of the greatest musical artists there is. Budweiser is one of the greatest beers there is. McDonalds makes the world's best hamburgers, cheeseburgers too..... actually just the best food period. Walmart is the world's coolest store. Apple makes the best electronic products. The Ford Fiesta is the best car in the world. Harry Potter is the best written book in the last 50 years, Avatar is the best movie ever made, Coca-Cola is world's best beverage, and nobody can distill spirits as well as those South Koreans making Jinro Soju.

 

It only stands to reason that Skyrim is one of the greatest games of all time, and that PoE is no where near as good.

 

 

 

cough....

 

vomit.....

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Namutree]

 

In the end, it comes down to personal preference. For me, ES games are the devil and the bane of the rpg genre.

 

Ah.  It helps to consider them as first person shooters, which by play mechanics, they essentially are.  One character instead of a party, first person perspective, you move around with the mouse and aim at things and press a button to fire.

 

Shooters.  Then you don't have to consider them the bane of the RPG genre, of which they are not a member.

 

Helps for me, anyway.

 

Well obviously since RPG literally stands for, "Game that is third person and party based." That why Socom is the best RPG ever. 

 

EDIT: Almost forgot that great RPG, Sonic Heroes!

Edited April 19, 2015 by Namutree

[Leferd]

 

Shush. Sales is everything. It denotes everything that matters, including quality. If it wasn't awesome people wouldn't buy it.

 

Justin Bieber is the one of the greatest musical artists there is. Budweiser is one of the greatest beers there is. McDonalds makes the world's best hamburgers, cheeseburgers too..... actually just the best food period. Walmart is the world's coolest store. Apple makes the best electronic products. The Ford Fiesta is the best car in the world. Harry Potter is the best written book in the last 50 years, Avatar is the best movie ever made, Coca-Cola is world's best beverage, and nobody can distill spirits as well as those South Koreans making Jinro Soju.

 

It only stands to reason that Skyrim is one of the greatest games of all time, and that PoE is no where near as good.

 

 

 

cough....

 

vomit.....

 

 

 

 

 

Eye-rolling get off my lawn elitism aside, the Ford Fiesta is cool.

 

[Valsuelm]

Eye-rolling get off my lawn elitism aside, the Ford Fiesta is cool.

 

 

Whoosh!

 

Over your head.

[Leferd]

 

Eye-rolling get off my lawn elitism aside, the Ford Fiesta is cool.

 

 

Whoosh!

 

Over your head.

 

 

No. But it looks like it went over yours.

[WebShaman]

Wow.

 

From sales to wot ne role playin' game?

 

Amazing. What a fantastic community here.

 

Could we please get back on topic?

[Volourn]

Topics change and progress and adapt. That's the internet. Get over it.

\

\Also, notice thanks to YOUR post, the topic went from sales to RPG to how horrible you think the community is. BRILLIANT TROLLING, GOOD SIR, BRILLANT.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Volourn

[WebShaman]

Oh, go away.

 

So does anyone have any reliable new data yet?

[Bryy]

Talking about what constitutes the genre in relation to its audience has everything to do with sales.