Should discussion about The Poem be ... censored?

[Mungri]

 

As a gay I do not side with the whine babies over this incident. The original limerick was top funny.

But on the other hand I agree that all straight men should want to sleep with me ... Because.

Like in PoE how there's machines that absorb souls, I need to invent machines to turn everyone gay. This of course is the ultimate homosexual agenda - You see any display of homosexual flamboyance and that will turn you gay. This has been our master plan all along. But unfortunately the alcohol and roofies are no longer enough, we need soul altering machines with straight to gay altering properties pronto.

Even better if the effects of such a machine are temporary and only last for about 24 hours but with no memory loss, hence all the straight men can remember in full vivid detail what they did the previous night with another man. There will be many men jumping off cliffs as a result of this, an unfortunate side effect.

 

 

 

Mungri can I ask you a question? As a gay man how do you feel about some of these comments on this thread? Do you find comments like " homosexuality is not natural " annoying? Offensive? Or do you just not  care. My gay friends seem to care less about gay rights than I do, they say things like " you will never change some peoples minds so why bother ".

 

But I refuse to accept that. I don't need to change peoples minds, I just want to let people that homophobia is not acceptable

I'm pretty much desensitised to such stuff after my father told me that he would have had me aborted if he knew I was going to turn out gay.

[PrimeJunta]

**** that's rough. :sadface:

[Namutree]

 

Man this thread has gotten hostile. Chill out people.

Namutree, since forever now, whenever I scroll past your avatar real quick, at the corner of my eye, it looks like Momo from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

 

I felt I should tell you. It was important to me.

 

HA! I thought I was being seen as the kick ass Samus dealin with Ridley, but now I've been demoted to Momo. Time for a new avatar!

[Mungri]

Well first it was denial:

 

'Where are you learning this from? From your friends at school? Don't you talk to any girls?

You cant be gay because this is a problem that only affects white people

You are a red blooded male, start looking at girls

If you are highly 'sexed' I can get you married off to a girl

...

If I knew you would have turned out gay I would have had you aborted'.

[Serdan]

What Junta said.

[Namutree]

 

 

Namutree, since forever now, whenever I scroll past your avatar real quick, at the corner of my eye, it looks like Momo from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

 

I felt I should tell you. It was important to me.

 

HA! I thought I was being seen as the kick ass Samus dealin with Ridley, but now I've been demoted to Momo. Time for a new avatar!

 

It is done. I've chosen Elisa Maza! There could be no other.

 

EDIT: I like this version better.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Namutree

[Luckmann]

 

 

Namutree, since forever now, whenever I scroll past your avatar real quick, at the corner of my eye, it looks like Momo from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

 

I felt I should tell you. It was important to me.

HA! I thought I was being seen as the kick ass Samus dealin with Ridley, but now I've been demoted to Momo. Time for a new avatar!

 

It is done. I've chosen Elisa Maza! There could be no other.

 

EDIT: I like this version better.

 

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! D: Momo!

 

**** that's rough. :sadface:

Edited April 12, 2015 by Luckmann

[Namutree]

 

It is done. I've chosen Elisa Maza! There could be no other.

 

 

 

EDIT: I like this version better.

 

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! D: Momo!

 

Long live Elisa, and her cat, Cagney!

Edited April 12, 2015 by Namutree

[Robsidious]

 

 

As a gay I do not side with the whine babies over this incident. The original limerick was top funny.

But on the other hand I agree that all straight men should want to sleep with me ... Because.

Like in PoE how there's machines that absorb souls, I need to invent machines to turn everyone gay. This of course is the ultimate homosexual agenda - You see any display of homosexual flamboyance and that will turn you gay. This has been our master plan all along. But unfortunately the alcohol and roofies are no longer enough, we need soul altering machines with straight to gay altering properties pronto.

Even better if the effects of such a machine are temporary and only last for about 24 hours but with no memory loss, hence all the straight men can remember in full vivid detail what they did the previous night with another man. There will be many men jumping off cliffs as a result of this, an unfortunate side effect.

 

 

Mungri can I ask you a question? As a gay man how do you feel about some of these comments on this thread? Do you find comments like " homosexuality is not natural " annoying? Offensive? Or do you just not  care. My gay friends seem to care less about gay rights than I do, they say things like " you will never change some peoples minds so why bother ".

 

But I refuse to accept that. I don't need to change peoples minds, I just want to let people that homophobia is not acceptable

I'm pretty much desensitised to such stuff after my father told me that he would have had me aborted if he knew I was going to turn out gay.

 

 

 

It's things like this that make you realise why some people become passionate activists for social justice, no matter the significance of what their efforts may be.

 

In this light I don't really understand the degree of enmity I see towards those labelled 'SJW's ((I am loathe to use this term myself, preferring to consider people's actions & arguments case by case and respond to those), however this could be because I don't pay much attention to Internet drama. The activists I know in real life don't try to change the world using twitter. After all, surely we can all agree that social justice is a good thing in itself, even if we disagree on exactly what that looks like. Likewise, surely we can sympathise with people like Erika being offended by the poem, even if we might see it as over-sensitive in this case and may take issue with the manner of some people's advocacy.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it's the Internet that does weird things to people or if people were always this way. A bit of both probably.

 

I personally didn't find Firedorn's poem outrageously offensive or worth bothering about. It was just 'a bit wrong or naughty' like some jokes tend to be. I did find it crass and unfunny though. It made me wonder why of all the things in the world you could leave on your memorial stone, why some silly poem. Even though I was eligible to leave something on a stone for all to see, I chose not to for fear of polluting the atmosphere of the game world with something out of context and inappropriate.

 

Thank you Mungri for your posts. The first was hilarious, the second profound. No matter how things may be for you now with your family, I feel for you *virtual hug if you want one* 

[mrmonocle]

In Russia we have a joke:

 

2 friends. The 1st asks:

- What is logic?

- Well. Do you smoke?

- Yes.

- You smoke, then you probably drink?

- Yes..

- You smoke, drink then you probably go out?

- Yes...

- You smoke, you drink, you go out then it means you're a man.

- Got it.

 

After a while the 1st meets another friend and tells him he's learned logic.

- What is it?

- Well, do you smoke?

- No.

- Then you're gay.

[Namutree]

 

I'm pretty much desensitised to such stuff after my father told me that he would have had me aborted if he knew I was going to turn out gay.

 

Your father sounds like a douche.

[BruceVC]

 

 

As a gay I do not side with the whine babies over this incident. The original limerick was top funny.

But on the other hand I agree that all straight men should want to sleep with me ... Because.

Like in PoE how there's machines that absorb souls, I need to invent machines to turn everyone gay. This of course is the ultimate homosexual agenda - You see any display of homosexual flamboyance and that will turn you gay. This has been our master plan all along. But unfortunately the alcohol and roofies are no longer enough, we need soul altering machines with straight to gay altering properties pronto.

Even better if the effects of such a machine are temporary and only last for about 24 hours but with no memory loss, hence all the straight men can remember in full vivid detail what they did the previous night with another man. There will be many men jumping off cliffs as a result of this, an unfortunate side effect.

 

 

Mungri can I ask you a question? As a gay man how do you feel about some of these comments on this thread? Do you find comments like " homosexuality is not natural " annoying? Offensive? Or do you just not  care. My gay friends seem to care less about gay rights than I do, they say things like " you will never change some peoples minds so why bother ".

 

But I refuse to accept that. I don't need to change peoples minds, I just want to let people that homophobia is not acceptable

I'm pretty much desensitised to such stuff after my father told me that he would have had me aborted if he knew I was going to turn out gay.

 

Yeah some of my friends have similar stories, not all of them but some. Living in South Africa we have a very liberal constitution that protects your sexual orientation in society but that doesn't stop all  homophobic comments and of course nothing can stop what people and family say and act on a personal level 

 

 

One of my friends told his mom at the age of 20 he was gay and she didn't speak to him for 3 years because her  boyfriend was homophobic. They get on very well now but when he told me the story he didn't even seem angry with her....I was thinking   " how can your mom chose some random guy over her  own son...and how can you not be angry and disappointed with her " ... but I never said those things to him because I didn't want to make him feel worse about his moms behavior

 

I know you aren't looking for sympathy and I'm sure we  will now  hear comments like  " oh so now  only gay people have a monopoly on there parents treating them badly..my parents did this to me and my parents did that  " but the reality is most straight people have never had to deal with the emotional and verbal abuse and hurt  that many gay people have to deal with including the incredibly insensitive  and appalling comments that your were subjected to by your dad ...anyway thanks for sharing

[KingNee]

 

- Well, do you smoke?

- No.

- Then you're gay.

 

I've been saying this since forever.

[Serdan]

It's things like this that make you realise why some people become passionate activists for social justice, no matter the significance of what their efforts may be.

 

In this light I don't really understand the degree of enmity I see towards those labelled 'SJW's ((I am loathe to use this term myself, preferring to consider people's actions & arguments case by case and respond to those), however this could be because I don't pay much attention to Internet drama. The activists I know in real life don't try to change the world using twitter. After all, surely we can all agree that social justice is a good thing in itself, even if we disagree on exactly what that looks like. Likewise, surely we can sympathise with people like Erika being offended by the poem, even if we might see it as over-sensitive in this case and may take issue with the manner of some people's advocacy.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it's the Internet that does weird things to people or if people were always this way. A bit of both probably.

 

I personally didn't find Firedorn's poem outrageously offensive or worth bothering about. It was just 'a bit wrong or naughty' like some jokes tend to be. I did find it crass and unfunny though. It made me wonder why of all the things in the world you could leave on your memorial stone, why some silly poem. Even though I was eligible to leave something on a stone for all to see, I chose not to for fear of polluting the atmosphere of the game world with something out of context and inappropriate.

 

Thank you Mungri for your posts. The first was hilarious, the second profound. No matter how things may be for you now with your family, I feel for you *virtual hug if you want one* 

 

Overall I liked your post. I just have to note that all activists use social media. They'd be idiots not to. The notion that the internet is somehow distinct from all other aspects of our lives and doesn't really matter is absurd. It is without contest the best way to reach a large audience.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Serdan

[Robsidious]

 

-Snip-

 

Overall I liked your post. I just have to note that all activists use social media. They'd be idiots not to. The notion that the internet is somehow distinct from all other aspects of our lives and doesn't really matter is absurd. It is without contest the best way to reach a large audience.

 

 

Good point. My appraisal of 'Internet drama' wasn't intended to make such a distinction, nor was my saying that activists I know 'don't try to change the world using Twitter' meant literally. Every human being is an agent of change and all our interactions matter in some way, be that through word, deed or text. The Internet is an an invaluable means of communication and important facet of humanity for sure.

 

I was simply trying to make the point that disparaging those who seek social justice based on some of the sillier stuff one finds online might not be giving due consideration to either the people involved or the issue at hand. It seems to me that the Internet can encourage this sort of narrow perspective in forum discussion.

 

Regarding the best way to reach people, the Internet is certainly the most accessible means of media in developed countries and a very powerful tool. Of course the way to reach people on a given issue is a combination of actions depending upon context and one's goals and means; whether you're a grass roots activist, lawyer for Amnesty International or a politician.

 

Granted, many people probably take Twitter more seriously than I do.

[Luckmann]

In Russia we have a joke:

 

2 friends. The 1st asks:

- What is logic?

- Well. Do you smoke?

- Yes.

- You smoke, then you probably drink?

- Yes..

- You smoke, drink then you probably go out?

- Yes...

- You smoke, you drink, you go out then it means you're a man.

- Got it.

 

After a while the 1st meets another friend and tells him he's learned logic.

- What is it?

- Well, do you smoke?

- No.

- Then you're gay.

 

That joke sucked. Not because it's "phobic" or any loony variation of that, but simply because it sucked.

[Halfwise]

I am against all censorship, regardless of content or reasoning.

As a free-willed human being, you have the right to walk away, and the right to ignore.

You also have the right to criticize.

But you don't have the right to force someone else to not express themselves.

The second you do, you give up that right yourself.

 

To put it simply, in my mind:

 

A murderer has no right to life.

An invader has no right to privacy.

A critic had no right to a lack of criticism,

A censor had no right to free speech.

 

It seems like a good philosophy. If you don't want to be treated a certain way, don't do it to others. (Kind of like the inverse of the Golden Rule.) As such, I will always stand against the people trying to silence others, no matter how much I agree on principle with them, and disagree with the one I stand beside.

 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, summarizing her friend, Voltaire.

[Longknife]

I do have to ask, Obsidian....

 

 

I've read the Polygon article and.....

 

One question is on my lips much like in Pillars itself, and that question....? That question is why, if you guys have read all the forum discussions about the topic, did you not just...yknow, talk to us? Why not talk to us? Why run off to Polygon? Assuming you're as informed as you claim to be, you must know Polygon is a big no-no for a huge chunk of the anti-censorship crowd. Why not talk to us instead? Why even bother with them?

 

I've said this a dozen times: communication works wonders. When you say nothing, people think you've something to hide. When you don't clarify, people twist words to their own desires. When you don't speak with people, they're less likely to personalize you and more likely to demonize you. When you have a bunch of people who hate Polygon all complaining about the limerick being pulled....why the HELL do you go make your case via Polygon? Even if they approached you for the interview, wtf just make your case here and let them report on it by copy-pasting what you said.

 

 

That, I would love to hear an answer to.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Longknife

[Saxon1974]

if i knew about it, i would go to that tweet and call the "offended" person who asked the poem to be changed a fascist, since he imposed his opinion on and stiffled another person's freedom of speech

Great post.

[BruceVC]

I do have to ask, Obsidian....

 

 

I've read the Polygon article and.....

 

One question is on my lips much like in Pillars itself, and that question....? That question is why, if you guys have read all the forum discussions about the topic, did you not just...yknow, talk to us? Why not talk to us? Why run off to Polygon? Assuming you're as informed as you claim to be, you must know Polygon is a big no-no for a huge chunk of the anti-censorship crowd. Why not talk to us instead? Why even bother with them?

 

I've said this a dozen times: communication works wonders. When you say nothing, people think you've something to hide. When you don't clarify, people twist words to their own desires. When you don't speak with people, they're less likely to personalize you and more likely to demonize you. When you have a bunch of people who hate Polygon all complaining about the limerick being pulled....why the HELL do you go make your case via Polygon? Even if they approached you for the interview, wtf just make your case here and let them report on it by copy-pasting what you said.

 

 

That, I would love to hear an answer to.

 

For those interested LK is referring to this link

 

http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/10/8383627/pillars-of-eternity-transphobic-kickstarter-hate-feargus-urquhart

 

I imagine Obsidian didn't consult the forum community because to be fair it has nothing really to do with us, this was about addressing a backlash that was more prevalent outside this community and Polygon is a good medium to do this and give an explanation  as they are respected in many SJ circles. People do read and absorb what they say on certain levels. For example I often read articles on Polygon, they can be a little "SJ hardcore " but I still think they do  more good than bad 

[BruceVC]

Well first it was denial:

 

'Where are you learning this from? From your friends at school? Don't you talk to any girls?

You cant be gay because this is a problem that only affects white people

You are a red blooded male, start looking at girls

If you are highly 'sexed' I can get you married off to a girl

...

If I knew you would have turned out gay I would have had you aborted'.

 

 

 

I'm not laughing at you but I can't believe your dad would really say something like " this is a problem that only affects white people " 

 

It amazes me that people can be so uninformed about homosexuality 

[Rosbjerg]

Let's at least pretend to be civil shall we, or do I really need to put half of you on moderated review?

[Ekaros]

I think topic is worthy to bring on for years to come. I mean why not? Not like it's resolved properly or in good manner...

[Wulfga]

If you don't like the discussion, don't read it. Stopping everyone else talking about it is just [content censored].

[Longknife]

I imagine Obsidian didn't consult the forum community because to be fair it has nothing really to do with us