Let's talk class balance....

[peddroelm]

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

------

Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

I was wrong .. Got to actually test it ..

Transcendent Suffering adds set amount of damage but NOT to base damage .. 

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15   ( ..

 

Lvl 10 monk with 20 might (30% damage bonus)  (10*1.3 + 8 )- (15*1.3+8 )   aka 21 - 27.5  NOT (10+8 )*1.3 - (15+8 )*1.3  aka 23.4 - 29.9

 

Huge disappointment

Edited April 11, 2015 by peddroelm

[Daemonjax]

It would be cool if monks could start encounters with some wounds, kinda like how to cipher starts with some focus.

 

It could be based on a % of Health lost (not Endurance, that could work the same way it works currently).  

 

So, the monk would get stronger as the day wears on... battle after battle... gets stronger as long as the party does not rest.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Climhazzard]

 

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

------

Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

I was wrong .. Got to actually test it ..

Transcendent Suffering adds set amount of damage but NOT to base damage .. 

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15   ( ..

 

Lvl 10 monk with 20 might (30% damage bonus)  (10*1.3 + 8 )- (15*1.3+8 )   aka 21 - 27.5  NOT (10+8 )*1.3 - (15+8 )*1.3  aka 23.4 - 29.9

 

Huge disappointment

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Climhazzard

[peddroelm]

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

 

10-15 is not "slightly better" than 11-16 of most 1 handed normal speed weapons .. It is "slightly less" ..  All additive damage bonuses operate on that base .. 

 

Afterwards you add a pinch of Transcendental Suffering on top and assuming your level is big enough, and not a lot of damage modifiers are in play - that just might edge the weapons on damage front .. How significant is the attack speed difference ? Unclear for me atm ..

[Climhazzard]

 

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

 

10-15 is not "slightly better" than 11-16 of most 1 handed normal speed weapons .. It is "slightly less" ..  All additive damage bonuses operate on that base .. 

 

Afterwards you add a pinch of Transcendental Suffering on top and assuming your level is big enough, and not a lot of damage modifiers are in play - that just might edge the weapons on damage front .. How significant is the attack speed difference ? Unclear for me atm ..

 

 

 

The damage rating for fists on my level 12 monk with 18 might is 20-27, with superb maces (average speed weapons) it's 19-27, the fists are "slightly better", with superb sabers it's 22-32, with superb stilettos it's 15-22.

 

Fists have the same attack speed as the stilettos though, from my own testing fast speed weapons are approximately 46% faster than average speed weapons.  Monk fists have better dps than plain superb weapons hands down, it's not until you consider extra effects like +crit damage or endurance drain that fists start lacking.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Climhazzard

[cavemandiary]

 

Paladin is a worse tank than a Fighter. All a Paladin has is slightly more reflex/will/fort for less deflection, half of the engagement (at best), less regeneration and less otherwise obtainable mitigation. Not to mention less battlefield control (knockbacks, positioning tools). And that's if the Paladin is the main character. None-PC (Player Character) Paladin's do not benefit from Faith and Conviction, which means that they're just as good of a tank as a Barbarian is.

 

When it comes to support, the Paladin pales in comparison to classes like the Priest, Druid, Wizard or Chanter. Their most useful ability is Reviving Exhortation, which resurrects an ally. Other abilities, like their aura's, have a pathetic range (even when dumping everything in Int) while others, like Liberating Exhortation, are a terribly weak imitation of a different class's spell to the point where they are useless.

 

It feels like a class that was developed in the early stages of development and wasn't given a second pass later on during development, while other classes were. That, along with that some its abilities feel more fit for other RPG systems. Liberating Exhortation would, for example, be a fine spell if it was something like "at will" and could be used instantly without loss of an action. However, with the current implementation it means you need to waste a precious action as (probably) a heavy armor user to cast a single target condition removal in a game where most debuffs are applied in AoE fields. Then you have Flames of Devotion. I've said it in other threads already, but you can build an entire Paladin around improving this ability. Yet you'll never get more than the initial 2/encounter charges, even at level 12 (the maximum level). Ect, ... .

 

They are "okay" off-tanks (mainly to buff the fighter tank) and great RP characters, but not much else compared to other classes. And you can even scratch "half-decent tank" off the list when they're not the PC character. When it comes down to it, they're an alround weak class with one or two mediorce abilities. Many people are justifiably wondering what place a Paladin has in most parties, especially when it comes to PoTD.

 

Its greatest feat of strength (according to many people that defend the current state of the Paladin class) seems to be that you can finish the game with having one in your party. Not high praise, considering that some people are finishing the game with one party member.

 

You make a compelling argument, but there are a couple of things to point out;

 

First, the paladin is indeed a weaker tank than the fighter, however there comes a point where adding more tanking ability becomes moot even on POTD. I was running a pale elf darcozzi who was practically immune to fire and cold, and supported her with a cipher (painblock is amazing) and that made her practically immune to physical damage as well, save for some ogres and of course the sky/adra dragon. She never died, except when I did something dumb and got my backline crushed. When she took aggro, she held it, and rarely went below 75% hp. And this was with a non-pc paladin.

 

The engagement limit wasn´t that much of an issue either, as I bought a shatterstar (+1 engagement) and kept it until I got the amazing Sheathed in Autumn sword (also +1 engagement), plus i picked up the +1 engagement talent. I´m not sure if 5 to the engagement limit would have been better tbh.

 

Even if the supportive abilities of the paladin are mediocre, they are better than zero (which is what the fighter offers). The biggest advantage of the fighter over the paladin is the engagement limit, which can be manipulated, and 3 seemed like a good place to be.

 

If you´re going to make a supportive paladin, I would go 2h and kind wayfarer moon godlike. Nigh unlimited party heals, but requires a specific setup, and in this  case should be paired with a maintank.

Edited April 11, 2015 by cavemandiary

[peddroelm]

 

 

The damage rating for fists on my level 12 monk with 18 might is 20-27, with superb maces (average speed weapons) it's 19-27, the fists are "slightly better", with superb sabers it's 22-32, with superb stilettos it's 15-22.

 

Fists have the same attack speed as the stilettos though, from my own testing fast speed weapons are approximately 46% faster than average speed weapons.  Monk fists have better dps than plain superb weapons hands down, it's not until you consider extra effects like +crit damage or endurance drain that fists start lacking.

 

throw in a few extra damage mods (crit // savage attack // ..) and the extra base damage from weapons will start to tell ..

[Longknife]

Another snippet of evidence Monk is OP. Monk joins Cipher with classes responsible for Triple Crown Solo Victories:

 

 

[Dongom]

I wouldn't call that type of Solo a display of monks power.  

[Longknife]

I wouldn't call that type of Solo a display of monks power.  

 

 

Hehe the clip itself, no, cause it shows heavy cheesing for the sake of victory.

 

That he could even make it to that battle however is what I find worthy of mention.

[Ruminate]

On PotD, my non-PC unarmed monk has out-damaged my non-PC firearms rogue. Both were obtained as soon as I reached Gilded Vale. Neither have been removed since they joined (character records are deleted when you remove them for another party member).

 

Rogue stats:

20 might

18 dex

Marksman

Gunner

Weapon Focus; Ruffian

Penetrating Shots

 

Monk stats:

16 might

16 dex

16 con

Hold the Line

Weapon Focus: Peasant

Two Weapon Style

Lower Wound Threshold

 

Despite the monk having less DPS talents and stats, he's still doing more DPS than the rogue (I have a control wizard that knocks everything down and blinds them).

A melee rogue would undoubtedly deal more damage than the monk if you have someone help with afflictions, but they won't have nearly as much survivability.

 

Also, whats with the Paladin hate? I love the high INT Darcozzi Paladin. Liberating Exortation turns into a very potent accuracy buff for my control wizard. Both the accuracy buff and hostile effect immunity lasts for 20+ seconds, You can pop it twice per encounter, too. Very useful on Path of the Damned. Not to mention Lay on Hands scales with the high INT, and Zealous Focus is affecting everyone in the party (another +6 accuracy for the wizard? Hell, yea.). They don't have a lot of DPS, but they're more inline with Chanters and Priests, all of whom are more about force multiplying than dealing damage.

[dam]

 

 

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

------

Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

I was wrong .. Got to actually test it ..

Transcendent Suffering adds set amount of damage but NOT to base damage .. 

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15   ( ..

 

Lvl 10 monk with 20 might (30% damage bonus)  (10*1.3 + 8 )- (15*1.3+8 )   aka 21 - 27.5  NOT (10+8 )*1.3 - (15+8 )*1.3  aka 23.4 - 29.9

 

Huge disappointment

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

 

 

 

Monk fists are situational.

They hold up fine against low DR targets, but fall super hard against armored opponents.

 

Your 21-27 damage will actually hit for 6-12 after 15 DR.

Given the sheer amount of monsters in fights on PotD, that's gonna take a while.

 

 

Find below the number of hits you'll need, obviously discounting misses, grazes, and the odd crit.

 

Forest Lurker 8 DR 327 HP : 13-19 damage per hit, 18-26 hits

Forest Troll 5 DR 237 HP : 16-22 damage per hit, 11-15 hits

Pwgra 15 DR 134 HP : 6-12 damage per hit, 12-23 hits

 

And these, are very low class monsters which you'll fight at levels 3-5, not at level 10.

The biggest pack I encountered on the Woodend Plains with my L5 Monk was 7 Pwgras, 3 Forest Trolls.

That's a grand total of 117-206 hits (with a L10 monk, certainly not with a L5) worth of HP + DR, discounting the natural regen of trolls, and the barkskin from pwgras.

 

This mode's difficulty is so high that every character has to pull their weigh, and tbh monks don't imo :|

[dam]

On PotD, my non-PC unarmed monk has out-damaged my non-PC firearms rogue. Both were obtained as soon as I reached Gilded Vale. Neither have been removed since they joined (character records are deleted when you remove them for another party member).

 

Rogue stats:

20 might

18 dex

Marksman

Gunner

Weapon Focus; Ruffian

Penetrating Shots

 

Monk stats:

16 might

16 dex

16 con

Hold the Line

Weapon Focus: Peasant

Two Weapon Style

Lower Wound Threshold

 

Despite the monk having less DPS talents and stats, he's still doing more DPS than the rogue (I have a control wizard that knocks everything down and blinds them).

A melee rogue would undoubtedly deal more damage than the monk if you have someone help with afflictions, but they won't have nearly as much survivability.

 

Also, whats with the Paladin hate? I love the high INT Darcozzi Paladin. Liberating Exortation turns into a very potent accuracy buff for my control wizard. Both the accuracy buff and hostile effect immunity lasts for 20+ seconds, You can pop it twice per encounter, too. Very useful on Path of the Damned. Not to mention Lay on Hands scales with the high INT, and Zealous Focus is affecting everyone in the party (another +6 accuracy for the wizard? Hell, yea.). They don't have a lot of DPS, but they're more inline with Chanters and Priests, all of whom are more about force multiplying than dealing damage.

 

 

No offense but, as you state yourself, you're comparing melee and ranged, a.k.a apples and oranges.

 

 

A well-built, melee rogue has the following damage modifiers :

- savage attack: 1.2x

- reckless assault: 1.2x

- 2h spec, or DW spec: 1.15x or +20% speed (so basically 1.2x)

- sneak attack: 1.5x

- deathblows: 1.5x

- 40% hit->crit conversion: 0.6x (1.5x from crit, times 40% occurences) (10% orlan, 20% vicious fighting, 10% crit weapon)

- 20 or 21 might: 1.3x

- exceptional weapons : 1.3x

- burning lash : +1.25x

 

Give him Tall Grass from Dyrford Village and he'll wreck faces (not to mention you're going to knock opponents prone more than your monk does).

Obviously you will have to help your melee rogue with afflictions, but you're already doing that for your ranged rogue to qualify for SAs.

 

Of course, and as you wisely point out, there's the matter of survivability, but once you get Tall Grass your dueling potential skyrockets.

[Daemonjax]

A lot of those rogue modifiers are things any class can get.

[Ruminate]

No offense but, as you state yourself, you're comparing melee and ranged, a.k.a apples and oranges.

 

 

A well-built, melee rogue has the following damage modifiers :

- savage attack: 1.2x

- reckless assault: 1.2x

- 2h spec, or DW spec: 1.15x or +20% speed (so basically 1.2x)

- sneak attack: 1.5x

- deathblows: 1.5x

- 40% hit->crit conversion: 0.6x (1.5x from crit, times 40% occurences) (10% orlan, 20% vicious fighting, 10% crit weapon)

- 20 or 21 might: 1.3x

- exceptional weapons : 1.3x

- burning lash : +1.25x

 

Give him Tall Grass from Dyrford Village and he'll wreck faces (not to mention you're going to knock opponents prone more than your monk does).

Obviously you will have to help your melee rogue with afflictions, but you're already doing that for your ranged rogue to qualify for SAs.

 

Of course, and as you wisely point out, there's the matter of survivability, but once you get Tall Grass your dueling potential skyrockets.

 

 

You're comparing a monk built to offtank to a rogue built to DPS. a.k.a. apples and oranges

 

I know what modifiers the rogue is capable of (+1 might on a human beats out the Orlan's crit passive and -2 penalty to might, btw, and thats ignoring the human's own passive), but the monk actually has a higher ceiling. This requires that the monk take enough continuous damage to spam Rooting Pain, have 10 stacks of Turning Wheel, keep Swift Strikes up at all times, and to wield Purgatory, Resolution, and Blood Testament. The rogue and monk have similar DPS talents, so I won't mention them.

 

Also, if the monk can take enough damage to spam Torment's Reach on every attack and still maintain 10 stacks of Turning Wheel, their DPS becomes otherwordly. Easier said than done, though. You'd need a dedicated healer and some friendly fire spells like Antipathetic Field, Ray of Fire, Wall of Fire, etc. Would make for an interesting party.

[Climhazzard]

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Climhazzard]

 

 

 

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

------

Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

I was wrong .. Got to actually test it ..

Transcendent Suffering adds set amount of damage but NOT to base damage .. 

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15   ( ..

 

Lvl 10 monk with 20 might (30% damage bonus)  (10*1.3 + 8 )- (15*1.3+8 )   aka 21 - 27.5  NOT (10+8 )*1.3 - (15+8 )*1.3  aka 23.4 - 29.9

 

Huge disappointment

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

 

 

 

Monk fists are situational.

They hold up fine against low DR targets, but fall super hard against armored opponents.

 

Your 21-27 damage will actually hit for 6-12 after 15 DR.

Given the sheer amount of monsters in fights on PotD, that's gonna take a while.

 

 

Find below the number of hits you'll need, obviously discounting misses, grazes, and the odd crit.

 

Forest Lurker 8 DR 327 HP : 13-19 damage per hit, 18-26 hits

Forest Troll 5 DR 237 HP : 16-22 damage per hit, 11-15 hits

Pwgra 15 DR 134 HP : 6-12 damage per hit, 12-23 hits

 

And these, are very low class monsters which you'll fight at levels 3-5, not at level 10.

The biggest pack I encountered on the Woodend Plains with my L5 Monk was 7 Pwgras, 3 Forest Trolls.

That's a grand total of 117-206 hits (with a L10 monk, certainly not with a L5) worth of HP + DR, discounting the natural regen of trolls, and the barkskin from pwgras.

 

This mode's difficulty is so high that every character has to pull their weigh, and tbh monks don't imo :|

 

 

 

Try vulnerable attack.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Ineth]

Why do so many people put Wizard in a low to medium tier?

 

Name one other class that can do this with a single casting of a 1st-level spell (which, I've heard, will even become per-encounter later on):

 

 

And things like Rolling Flame make for good first strike weapons (whereas most other classes' offensive abilities are combat-only).

 

And his CC spells are arguably even better than the damage spells.

 

And with self-buffs and spells that leech Endurance from enemies, he can even "tank" a little if necessary. There have been fights where (through stupidity on my part) all my other party members were knocked out, and only Aloth left standing against multiple enemies - and he prevailed.

[dam]

 

 

 

 

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

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Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

I was wrong .. Got to actually test it ..

Transcendent Suffering adds set amount of damage but NOT to base damage .. 

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15   ( ..

 

Lvl 10 monk with 20 might (30% damage bonus)  (10*1.3 + 8 )- (15*1.3+8 )   aka 21 - 27.5  NOT (10+8 )*1.3 - (15+8 )*1.3  aka 23.4 - 29.9

 

Huge disappointment

 

 

Monk fists have the same attack speed as fast speed weapons, but do slightly better damage than average speed weapons (except for sabers), they may not be as OP as you were imagining, but they're still good.

 

 

 

Monk fists are situational.

They hold up fine against low DR targets, but fall super hard against armored opponents.

 

Your 21-27 damage will actually hit for 6-12 after 15 DR.

Given the sheer amount of monsters in fights on PotD, that's gonna take a while.

 

 

Find below the number of hits you'll need, obviously discounting misses, grazes, and the odd crit.

 

Forest Lurker 8 DR 327 HP : 13-19 damage per hit, 18-26 hits

Forest Troll 5 DR 237 HP : 16-22 damage per hit, 11-15 hits

Pwgra 15 DR 134 HP : 6-12 damage per hit, 12-23 hits

 

And these, are very low class monsters which you'll fight at levels 3-5, not at level 10.

The biggest pack I encountered on the Woodend Plains with my L5 Monk was 7 Pwgras, 3 Forest Trolls.

That's a grand total of 117-206 hits (with a L10 monk, certainly not with a L5) worth of HP + DR, discounting the natural regen of trolls, and the barkskin from pwgras.

 

This mode's difficulty is so high that every character has to pull their weigh, and tbh monks don't imo :|

 

 

 

Try vulnerable attack.

 

 

I see your point, but unless I'm mistaken that's a -20% attack speed so, you'll need less hits, but it'll take more time to land them.

I'm not even sure it'll make a difference in the end.

 

Someone wanna do the math ?

[dam]

 

No offense but, as you state yourself, you're comparing melee and ranged, a.k.a apples and oranges.

 

 

A well-built, melee rogue has the following damage modifiers :

- savage attack: 1.2x

- reckless assault: 1.2x

- 2h spec, or DW spec: 1.15x or +20% speed (so basically 1.2x)

- sneak attack: 1.5x

- deathblows: 1.5x

- 40% hit->crit conversion: 0.6x (1.5x from crit, times 40% occurences) (10% orlan, 20% vicious fighting, 10% crit weapon)

- 20 or 21 might: 1.3x

- exceptional weapons : 1.3x

- burning lash : +1.25x

 

Give him Tall Grass from Dyrford Village and he'll wreck faces (not to mention you're going to knock opponents prone more than your monk does).

Obviously you will have to help your melee rogue with afflictions, but you're already doing that for your ranged rogue to qualify for SAs.

 

Of course, and as you wisely point out, there's the matter of survivability, but once you get Tall Grass your dueling potential skyrockets.

 

 

You're comparing a monk built to offtank to a rogue built to DPS. a.k.a. apples and oranges

 

I know what modifiers the rogue is capable of (+1 might on a human beats out the Orlan's crit passive and -2 penalty to might, btw, and thats ignoring the human's own passive), but the monk actually has a higher ceiling. This requires that the monk take enough continuous damage to spam Rooting Pain, have 10 stacks of Turning Wheel, keep Swift Strikes up at all times, and to wield Purgatory, Resolution, and Blood Testament. The rogue and monk have similar DPS talents, so I won't mention them.

 

Also, if the monk can take enough damage to spam Torment's Reach on every attack and still maintain 10 stacks of Turning Wheel, their DPS becomes otherwordly. Easier said than done, though. You'd need a dedicated healer and some friendly fire spells like Antipathetic Field, Ray of Fire, Wall of Fire, etc. Would make for an interesting party.

 

 

Your monk's gonna offtank nil in PotD.

 

Perhaps I built mine incorrectly, perhaps it's just too early in the game (L5), but my PotD monk offtanks not a thing.

 

I do see your point about a full blown DPS build though, but I've never tried it for fear of the shear amount of babysitting required.

10 stacks at all times, that's gotta require healing left and right.

 

 

Regarding Orlan vs Human :

- Orlans get -1 to might, so the end difference is 2

- Your human gets +6% overall damage from might

- My Orlan gets +10% crit chance and, since I've built him that way (Tall Grass), 10% more chance to knock a target prone, 10% chance to set up his own SAs, 10% chance to proc Deathblows if the target is flanked, which is easy enough.

 

I like mine better since it brings more CC and frees up the team to focus elsewhere, but then it's a matter of viewpoint, you certainly are free to play as you like.

[dam]

Why do so many people put Wizard in a low to medium tier?

 

Name one other class that can do this with a single casting of a 1st-level spell (which, I've heard, will even become per-encounter later on):

 

 

And things like Rolling Flame make for good first strike weapons (whereas most other classes' offensive abilities are combat-only).

 

And his CC spells are arguably even better than the damage spells.

 

And with self-buffs and spells that leech Endurance from enemies, he can even "tank" a little if necessary. There have been fights where (through stupidity on my part) all my other party members were knocked out, and only Aloth left standing against multiple enemies - and he prevailed.

 

This resonates nicely with my post in the patch 1.03 thread where I argued that wizards were far from weak , when one compares them with IE games arcane spellcasters which can get gibbed by a goblin at level 1.

 

The problem with a wizard is, sure, he has CC, but he can cast it X/rest.

A Cipher has (arguably inferior) CC but he can spam it all day long.

Unless you're willing to rest often, that's super annoying -.-

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

Another snippet of evidence Monk is OP. Monk joins Cipher with classes responsible for Triple Crown Solo Victories:

 

 

interesting but so far i have seen a PotD iron mode walktrough or lets say thaos kill by every class except ranger which doesnt make the monk OP.

 

Infact it would be much more interesting to see some of the more challening fights like the higher bounty quests in solo mode done by monk VS. lets say fighter

 

so far thaos iron man PotD is or was in every youtube video: get the beetles kite thaos away solo statues and thaos with a trap (or without) which isnt outstanding at all.

 

My question is not if its doable with a monk or fighter but rather who have the easier time in PotD solo?

[dam]

Another snippet of evidence Monk is OP. Monk joins Cipher with classes responsible for Triple Crown Solo Victories:

 

 

 

 

I could be mistaken, but there is no way of proving this is a solo run.

This is a solo boss kill, the whole run altogether is another matter.

 

Regardless, it is still pretty impressive

[maseren]

You know, i find it very entertaining that everyone is trying to put classes in to tiers. Bottom line, you have a party, and every person can pull their weight in the party. Without Eder i'd b wrecked, without Durance, Eder would drop, without my monk, the big bosses would take forever to drop, without my chanter the summonings that help immensely would be wasted, but till then his chants help in small subtle invisible ways, and without Aoth and a druid, huge expanses of enemies wouldn't suddenly be confused, flamed, iced, etc... etc... Bottom line, no class is better than another, because aside from the hard core people that can solo at POTD, a party is needed. 

 

Also, my two cents about the monk, I fought yesterday some creatures that was in the water area that had 34DR, my monk held him by himself, smashing him for 4-12 damage, but then crit it for 24 at one point, despite the crazy DR. Oh, that creature spent 10 seconds sitting on the ground crying... 

 

all characters are necessary, and monks played and spec'd right are amazing and very multidimensional. They can tank, DPS like crazy, attack with fire, bypass DR, etc... etc... Those that are having issues with a class, don't yet know what the class represents. POE is based on baldur's gate 2 in a way, which is AD and D, which means fights are the ultimate tanks, Pallies will NEVER match them. Monks are the jacks of many trades, pallies are the holy warriors that can cast and be in the front, rogues are amazing DPS when not tanking and backstabbing, etc... 

 

Obsidian, well done on this game. Amazing character classes and amazing story. 

[Exoduss]

Okay .. so Ranger and Paladin has been with me since first playtrough in every team i made on every difficulty , is something wrong with me or all this class balance discussion is based on air ? its not about 1 character its about your team composition more than anything in this game i couldnt ever take a fighter over paladin in my teams , just because i run them ranged and marksman heavy and paladin just does better job in that team , i dont really understand the need of THE BEST TANK FIGHTER , when my paladin and chanter does the tanking job without any problems and gives ton of utility to the team ? Yes if i made a team with 1 tank or with 4 melee i probably would pick fighter , but thats not because paladin or xxxx is bad tank but because fighter makes that composition better ... it feels like people are comparing only Class X with Class Y but you can have 6 classes in your party , also the game seems to be soloable on hardest of the difficulties so its not a matter of class balance is bad because i cant get trough the game if i use class Y , so where is the problem ? Why Strategy and Character builds forum is littered with class balance stuff and thats the only thing people want to talk about seriously ...