Let's talk class balance....

[Epsilon Rose]

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

I think you missed my point about micro. Most, if not all, of the classes seem to perform significantly better if they're heavily microed. As such, if you are comparing the damage of a monk that is heavily microed to a druid that isn't heavily microed, you are not making a valid comparison, just like how if you're comparing the damage of a dps monk to a cc cypher, you're not making a useful comparison.

[dam]

 

 

 

You're playing < PotD , anything is absolutely great < PotD.

My own monk melted faces on Normal and could frontline like a baws while my backline just stood there and watched.

 

Then you hit PotD, get up against 70 def enemies with 18 DR, against your level 3 monk.

And that's where you realize your awesome stunning punches just don't connect 8/10 times, and your Force of Anguish consistently fails to knock enemies prone.

On top of that, your unarmed attacks now deal 3-6 damage per hit, while lions crit you for 40+.

 

In the meantime, 3 mobs got past your tank and are now mauling your backline, you're out of stunning punches, your FoA missed but at least you're still on 7/10 endurance.

You get crit for 60 damage and drop to 2/10 endurance + 7 wounds.

You dump them all in more FoAs which miss superbly.

You press F8.

 

 

There's no need for PoTD elitism. That mode is in itself broken, as it's usually the case when you make hard mode by simply inflating the stats. Then the balance is completely off and many skills and playstyles become pointless.

 

So let's talk about Hard (possibly ironman) balance. And if 6-man hard is too easy let's talk about 5-man hard or 4-man hard - it doesn't matter.

 

My first impression of a monk (first several levels) is that it's underpowered, fragile, and requires too much micromanagement. Now, I'm not giving up on a monk yet (although I rage-remove it from the party after 2 minutes every time I try him), and will try it with leech weapon which I did not have before. If leech doesn't help enough then the class is useless because "taking others down with me" is not a successful tactic. My current party can win most battles without a scratch so why do I need a monk? People say he does a lot of damage. I have a few problems with that claim:

 

1. Dps monk is a liability, and you don't want that in ironman mode. Non dps monk is for my party worse than other tanks. I still remember when I played PotD how FoA ability never pushed any enemy that was actually dangerous - it only worked on weak useless enemies (and that's when it actually managed to hit of course). In Hard I hoped that would work better but let's say that the whole wound + maybe hit + maybe pushed combo did not work well for me so far and I quickly lost patience.

 

2. Monk dps may do a lot of damage in ideal circumstances but if he gets hit hard then what? He's dead and useless or has to run back and do autoattacks. And if he doesn't get hit no wounds.

 

3. Monk requires a lot of micromanagement which is a stat in itself.

 

4. It has no synergy with the rest of the party. True, neither do some other classes but then again I don't use these other classes either.

 

 

 

My experience with the monk goes like this:

 

Phase 1: Battle started and I've no Wounds.. argh

Phase 2: Argh I got hit! 1/3 hp/end down. Oh look, Wounds!

Phase 3: FoA.. yeah.. finally some action. (a moment later) *missed* ..ffs..

Phase 4: Argh another hit! 2/3 hp/end down. Evacuate! Oh wait can't because of disengagement mechanic.

Phase 5: Fight to the death!

Phase 6. Death.

 

 

 

And that, my good sir, is my point exactly.

 

 

People keep coming over here saying "I'm playing [class] on easy and it's awesome!" , 'course it's awesome you tool...

 

Monks in Hard are OK but require a lot of micro, and while I saw a "monk enervating blows + rogue" post, I should point out that this requires a custom party, thus forfeiting the banter and quests from the included NPCs.

 

 

Now and regarding PotD, of course it introduces imbalance and of course it's imperfect, very much like Heart Of Fury was for IWD and IWD2, where a lousy goblin could gib one of your casters, and wouldn't go down from a max DC horrid wilting.

 

But that's the ultimate challenge of the game, one would argue, and it makes sense to consider a class' worthiness with regards to a PotD party.

 

 

From my experience :

- Cipher, mandatory, for the spammable single-target lifesaver CC

- Druid, recommended, for the large AOE CC and Sneak Attack tagging

- Fighter, mandatory, for the frontline

- Priest, mandatory, to keep your fighter alive and bolster your backline's defense and offense

- Rogue, very very much recommended, to get past that pesky DR

That leaves you with the one open spot, which should go to a Chanter for the spammable summons.

 

 

My PotD Monk doesn't shine very much, he keeps missing, he can't take hits like a Fighter, he has no regen, he can't CC correctly...

 

I liked my Normal Monk very much, I hate my PotD.

 

 

No need to start calling people "tools" and I disagree with you pretty much on everything. PoTD isn't the end all be all difficulty to judge if a class is worthy. It's a mode for masochists to get their hardcore jollies. It's not balanced and it's not the normal way to play the game the way the developers intended it, hard mode was.

 

 

 

It is your right to disagree, and have your own point of view; mine differs in every way, obviously.

 

Regarding the Tool appellation, I believe it is more than justified.

It's like someone next to you shouting "I'd rather command a tank than throw rocks at my enemy !" , why thank you very much for this deeply insightful comment Captain Obvious.

While YMMV, I for one consider these people as tools, simple as that.

 

Regarding PotD not being the end all be all, that is subjective, it is for me, just like building the ultimate party for HoF was.

 

By the way and I just can't resist this little jab before leaving : no need to start calling people "masochists"

[dam]

Shooting your monk is an edge case. Sometimes you don't get engagement when you would like. Sometimes you kill all the targets but the ones on the tank for one reason or another. When those moments arise there is nothing wrong with using an excess resource to proc Rooting Pain, and use wounds to spam a couple TRs. Turning mediocre single target into AoE. You could also just target the Monk with a wizard and get blast damage to boot.

 

IDK, while that is valid from a mechanic viewpoint, it seems entirely counter-intuitive, not to mention it completely kills realism.

Whoever ever heard, in a fantasy setting, "Quick, let's pelt our friend to near death so he can be useful !" ?

 

That sounds... broken by design.

 

Perhaps there should be an additional way for Monks to generate wounds, and I'm not talking about the lousy per rest ability.

Of course this ability is quite acceptable if you rest after every fight, but then again, was that really the intended use case, with camping supplies being limited ?

[Elgyn]

Cipher would be garbage tier if starting at 0 focus. He's mostly just good at demonstrating how much better spellcasters are to those who aren't good at managing their spells per rest usage. Most of his spells are weaker than druid/priest/wizard. He has a few OP spells though.

They wouldn't be anywhere near garbage tier. It would just require a little ramp up which sounds much healthier, instead of having the ability to unleash several potent spells at the start of combat, every combat.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Cipher would be garbage tier if starting at 0 focus. He's mostly just good at demonstrating how much better spellcasters are to those who aren't good at managing their spells per rest usage. Most of his spells are weaker than druid/priest/wizard. He has a few OP spells though.

They wouldn't be anywhere near garbage tier. It would just require a little ramp up which sounds much healthier, instead of having the ability to unleash several potent spells at the start of combat, every combat.

 

They would be squishy chanters. Maybe not garbage tier, but pretty bad. The benefits of being able to do this every combat are pretty moot since you don't get into combat requiring serious spellcasting support that often. And when you do, wizards/druids/priest can unleash much more powerful stuff. By the time they would get to cast smth most trash combats would be over by mere auto attacks and most big fights too because wizard and druid bursted everything already.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[cavemandiary]

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

 

Monk has extremely high accuracy, so agreed on this part. Also his abilities are free, and he can still do dmg if he misses thanks to rooting pain. So if anything, missing hurts a monk less than other melee classes (barring the cheesy retaliation builds).

 

By the way, monk works really well with a cipher. Just mind wave your monk, and you get 2-3 wounds instantly, and you get to position your mind wave as effectively as possible, knocking most of the mobs prone if the monk has a decent amount of stealth. If he´s taking a beating, just painblock him.

Edited April 10, 2015 by cavemandiary

[MadDemiurg]

I've been running a monk myself out of curiosity and he deals twice the damage than the rest of my party combined  I'm inclined to believe he's quite balanced. Surprisingly following in game tips on stats resulted in the most workable build for me. I went 18 17 17 8 10 8 moony. You deal very good damage with DW fists, which you can swap for dw weapons when they get better, and can tank some damage due to big hp pool which is also effectively your ability pool (that's why I think CON works much better for a monk than deflection). Just don't expect him to be the main tank. He's a solid dps with some CC options that can take some beating. Flanking mobs and taking them 1 by 1 works well, since 1 on 1 he can handle mobs just fine.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Ganrich]

 

 

Shooting your monk is an edge case. Sometimes you don't get engagement when you would like. Sometimes you kill all the targets but the ones on the tank for one reason or another. When those moments arise there is nothing wrong with using an excess resource to proc Rooting Pain, and use wounds to spam a couple TRs. Turning mediocre single target into AoE. You could also just target the Monk with a wizard and get blast damage to boot.

 

IDK, while that is valid from a mechanic viewpoint, it seems entirely counter-intuitive, not to mention it completely kills realism.

Whoever ever heard, in a fantasy setting, "Quick, let's pelt our friend to near death so he can be useful !" ?

 

That sounds... broken by design.

 

Perhaps there should be an additional way for Monks to generate wounds, and I'm not talking about the lousy per rest ability.

Of course this ability is quite acceptable if you rest after every fight, but then again, was that really the intended use case, with camping supplies being limited ?

 

 

That's a fair criticism.  I won't argue that it isn't counter intuitive.  I will say that the class is counter intuitive in many respects, but I don't view that as bad.  Most fantasy settings (particularly video games) don't have a mechanic that makes you want your character to be damaged.  I personally find the idea fun since it isn't something that has really been done before.  There are also a handful of broken mechanics in the game.  Some of the Barbarian Carnage silliness comes to mind. I see this concept as a pretty legit myself, but it is what it is.  Also, it gives synergy that any class can take advantage of.  

 

Also, to argue a point based on the setting, the Monks in Pillars seem to be a kind of mix of Asian Monks (like those in D&D) and European Monks that would practice flagellantion.  The Monks that practiced flagellantion believed that the pain somewhat absolved them of sin.  In PoE it is because it "strengthened the soul and helped prevent fragmentation."  Similar, but different.  IF the Monks of Eora believe they are strengthened by pain... do they care who causes that pain?  If those were my beliefs I may not care one way or the other.  

 

The per rest Wound generating ability is indeed garbage, though.  IMHO it should be gained for free at a low level (level 3ish), and not cost an ability point.  Either that or it should be 1 per rest.  Perhaps both.  

 

Just to give the numbers for the idea I am talking about to quantify it better... I was out of the house earlier, but here it is.  I am using Aloth in my Monk playthrough on hard.  I haven't jumped into PotD, yet.  I won't comment for or against the Monk's abilities as a whole in PotD.  I understand the issues people have with them there though.  I still think the issue of removing Accuracy from Perception, and probably removing Damage Threshold from the game as well, are the root cause of these issues on that difficulty.  Because these classes were designed with that Accuracy and DT in mind. 

 

Aloth's current Thrust of Tattered Veils does 18-30 damage (with his current Might at present).  My Monk's Rooting Pain does 12-18 with 16 Might (I haven't gotten a +Might item yet).  My Monk's attack damage is 18-24 for each hand.  I also have Lesser Wounds.  The party is level 9+ atm.  If Aloth hits my Monk for 24 damage with 1 ToTV then I generate 3 wounds.  That should give me 3 procs of Rooting Pain (It may only go off once, but IMHO it is still a better use) + 3 Torment's Reach.  Torment's Reach also debuffing anyone with the AoE for -2 Might, and if Crits occur then I have Enervating Blows to Weaken them as well.  So, IMHO it is a better use of ToTV than hitting 1 enemy with the spell.  

 

[The Josip]

That's it, I'm making a full monk party. Typhoon time.

 

 

(Because.. FFS I've been annihilating enemies left and right and then my PC steps on a trap, drops on the floor.. and I'm like "oh come on more of these annoying instant-kill traps".. and then I unpause so he can regain endurance and we can move on but oh wait what, is that a pulse trap? *puff again* ..and now my PC is not only maimed but dead. As in gone for good in ironman Hard. But as always I learned a lot from this short trip to catacombs; for instance that 90% of battles in PoE are over under 10 seconds so why bother with some builds and classes).

[Schakar]

I see just one problem with balance.

 

wtf amount of spells: Wizard, Prist, Druid, Cipher

 

wtf auto attackers: Paladin, Fighter, Hunter

 

good amount of abilitys: Chanter

 

don't know: Rogue, Barbarian, Monk

 

Move some spells from Wiz, Prist, Druid, Cipher to Paladin (heals), Fighter (debuffs), Hunter (cc/buffs).

Balance done .

[The Josip]

Most fantasy settings (particularly video games) don't have a mechanic that makes you want your character to be damaged.  I personally find the idea fun since it isn't something that has really been done before.  

 

Guild Wars (1) Necromancer for example. But I would agree that it can be fun, and I'm also a fan of unorthodox styles. Archetypes bore me. Especially melee ones.

 

Also, to argue a point based on the setting, the Monks in Pillars seem to be a kind of mix of Asian Monks (like those in D&D) and European Monks that would practice flagellantion.  The Monks that practiced flagellantion believed that the pain somewhat absolved them of sin.  In PoE it is because it "strengthened the soul and helped prevent fragmentation."  Similar, but different.

 

I thought that Christian monks practiced flagellation to keep their senses under control, to suppress desires, and perhaps as a form of self-punishment also.

But you may be interested to know that the PoE line you quoted is Buddhism.

[Climhazzard]

 

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

I think you missed my point about micro. Most, if not all, of the classes seem to perform significantly better if they're heavily microed. As such, if you are comparing the damage of a monk that is heavily microed to a druid that isn't heavily microed, you are not making a valid comparison, just like how if you're comparing the damage of a dps monk to a cc cypher, you're not making a useful comparison.

 

And you are just assuming that I micro my monk more than I micro my druid, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, so it's really pointless to argue.

[Climhazzard]

Cipher would be garbage tier if starting at 0 focus. He's mostly just good at demonstrating how much better spellcasters are to those who aren't good at managing their spells per rest usage. Most of his spells are weaker than druid/priest/wizard. He has a few OP spells though.

 

 

Hmm, dual sabers are just burstier than fists, they are slower but have higher base damage, it just makes them fun to use is all.  If you actually look at the numbers on fists, they are quite good, they have have the speed of fast weapons and slighty better damage than average weapons.  Even if you factor in endgame enchantments fists do alright, the only one you'll really miss is endurance drain, but it's not like you can get that on every weapon anyways.  Even if weapons are better than fists, it doesn't factor into a class vs class discussion as long as the monk can use the weapons that work best for him, it just means that monk fists would need balancing vs other weapons he can use.

[AncientToaster]

 

Continuation from race balance. And here let me piss people off by hyperbolizing the tier titles again:

 

God Tier

 

Cipher

 

I've played a lot of Cipher and I think the Focus mechanic is really what brings the class into crazy-town. I think if they started combat at 0 focus and had to work their way up, while fixing some of the crazy ways a Cipher can gain a quick pool of focus (ala Blunderbuss), then the class would be much more in line with the other strong choices.

 

Mental Binding should also be moved up a tier (or three) and cost more focus. That is probably the best and most efficient ability in the entire game.

 

 

I just don't agree. The class is squishy, almost as much as a Wizard. Requiring the class to Auto attack to build focus would make the class terrible. Priests, Wizards and Druids can cast spells right away, and higher levels get per encounter spells of the first two tiers.

 

Also, the way fights work in this game, most are over before you know it. Auto attacking for Focus would probably make it so you're on the same level as the Chanter, where you're spending half the fight doing nothing but attacking waiting to use an ability.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

 

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

I think you missed my point about micro. Most, if not all, of the classes seem to perform significantly better if they're heavily microed. As such, if you are comparing the damage of a monk that is heavily microed to a druid that isn't heavily microed, you are not making a valid comparison, just like how if you're comparing the damage of a dps monk to a cc cypher, you're not making a useful comparison.

 

And you are just assuming that I micro my monk more than I micro my druid, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, so it's really pointless to argue.

 

I didn't assume anything. I've asked several times now and each time you've refused to answer. What I am starting to assume is that you're more interested in proving your point than honest analysis.

[dam]

 

 

 

Shooting your monk is an edge case. Sometimes you don't get engagement when you would like. Sometimes you kill all the targets but the ones on the tank for one reason or another. When those moments arise there is nothing wrong with using an excess resource to proc Rooting Pain, and use wounds to spam a couple TRs. Turning mediocre single target into AoE. You could also just target the Monk with a wizard and get blast damage to boot.

 

IDK, while that is valid from a mechanic viewpoint, it seems entirely counter-intuitive, not to mention it completely kills realism.

Whoever ever heard, in a fantasy setting, "Quick, let's pelt our friend to near death so he can be useful !" ?

 

That sounds... broken by design.

 

Perhaps there should be an additional way for Monks to generate wounds, and I'm not talking about the lousy per rest ability.

Of course this ability is quite acceptable if you rest after every fight, but then again, was that really the intended use case, with camping supplies being limited ?

 

 

That's a fair criticism.  I won't argue that it isn't counter intuitive.  I will say that the class is counter intuitive in many respects, but I don't view that as bad.  Most fantasy settings (particularly video games) don't have a mechanic that makes you want your character to be damaged.  I personally find the idea fun since it isn't something that has really been done before.  There are also a handful of broken mechanics in the game.  Some of the Barbarian Carnage silliness comes to mind. I see this concept as a pretty legit myself, but it is what it is.  Also, it gives synergy that any class can take advantage of.  

 

Also, to argue a point based on the setting, the Monks in Pillars seem to be a kind of mix of Asian Monks (like those in D&D) and European Monks that would practice flagellantion.  The Monks that practiced flagellantion believed that the pain somewhat absolved them of sin.  In PoE it is because it "strengthened the soul and helped prevent fragmentation."  Similar, but different.  IF the Monks of Eora believe they are strengthened by pain... do they care who causes that pain?  If those were my beliefs I may not care one way or the other.  

 

The per rest Wound generating ability is indeed garbage, though.  IMHO it should be gained for free at a low level (level 3ish), and not cost an ability point.  Either that or it should be 1 per rest.  Perhaps both.  

 

Just to give the numbers for the idea I am talking about to quantify it better... I was out of the house earlier, but here it is.  I am using Aloth in my Monk playthrough on hard.  I haven't jumped into PotD, yet.  I won't comment for or against the Monk's abilities as a whole in PotD.  I understand the issues people have with them there though.  I still think the issue of removing Accuracy from Perception, and probably removing Damage Threshold from the game as well, are the root cause of these issues on that difficulty.  Because these classes were designed with that Accuracy and DT in mind. 

 

Aloth's current Thrust of Tattered Veils does 18-30 damage (with his current Might at present).  My Monk's Rooting Pain does 12-18 with 16 Might (I haven't gotten a +Might item yet).  My Monk's attack damage is 18-24 for each hand.  I also have Lesser Wounds.  The party is level 9+ atm.  If Aloth hits my Monk for 24 damage with 1 ToTV then I generate 3 wounds.  That should give me 3 procs of Rooting Pain (It may only go off once, but IMHO it is still a better use) + 3 Torment's Reach.  Torment's Reach also debuffing anyone with the AoE for -2 Might, and if Crits occur then I have Enervating Blows to Weaken them as well.  So, IMHO it is a better use of ToTV than hitting 1 enemy with the spell.  

 

 

 

Oh do not mistake me, I very much agree with you :

 

From an entertainment value viewpoint, it is very refreshing to see new classes and mechanics (ciphers' focus, monks' wounds, chanters' phrases).

From a mechanic and logic viewpoint, it makes complete sense to dump some damage on your monk to get extra wounds (or just trigger disengagement hits) to fuel his abilities.

 

 

 

However, and that is the root of my... skeptical view on monks :

 

These mechanics are very immersion unfriendly, nobody ever mauled their friend so he could go berserk on the enemies.

'matter of fact, that would be quite the other way around, toggle berserk on your barbarian, guy becomes frenzied and hits pretty much anyone in range, friend or foe.

 

From a balance viewpoint -and keeping in mind that within my own scale of values every class should be PotD worthy- monks are lackluster.

 

Yes, as stated by @cavemandiary monks have very high accuracy, but that doesn't matter in PotD where you won't hit a thing, even when they're flanked, unless they're under a Paralyze debuff.

And the worst is, you first have to surpass the enemy's deflection, and if you somehow manage to get past that one barrier, you still have to vanquish their fortitude to get them prone/knocked back.

 

I understand very well that this is true for the other CC classes, but they (Ciphers, Druids, Wizs) :

- have AOE CC, whereas monks have single target CC

- can stand safely in the backline, while monks have to go head on

 

 

Do not get me wrong, I very much love monks in normal/hard, it's just that they're not cut out for PotD in my opinion.

Of course we've been derailing this thread towards monk love/hate, but I suppose rangers don't shine overmuch in PotD either, even though they're standing sound and safe with the rest of the backline.

 

Could also be that Sagani has given me the impression that rangers really really suck lizard eggs , and if you get where that reference is from, you win a free high five.

[Climhazzard]

Personally I think cipher mechanis are 

 

 

 

 

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

I think you missed my point about micro. Most, if not all, of the classes seem to perform significantly better if they're heavily microed. As such, if you are comparing the damage of a monk that is heavily microed to a druid that isn't heavily microed, you are not making a valid comparison, just like how if you're comparing the damage of a dps monk to a cc cypher, you're not making a useful comparison.

 

And you are just assuming that I micro my monk more than I micro my druid, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, so it's really pointless to argue.

 

I didn't assume anything. I've asked several times now and each time you've refused to answer. What I am starting to assume is that you're more interested in proving your point than honest analysis.

 

 

I micro my monk more than I do Fighters, Chanters, Paladins, Barbarians, and rogues; and the same amount as I do ciphers, wizards, and druids.  I don't use ciphers for damage, but for CC, so that comparison is invalid as you've already pointed out several times.  I use wizards for debuffing/damage, and druids almost exclusively for damage.   If my priest isn't buffing/debuffing or healing, he's either autoattacking some mob with a stick or scratching his head.  I've never used a ranger.

 

In other words, I micro my monk more than I micro auto attack classes, and the same as I do casting classes.  

Edited April 11, 2015 by Climhazzard

[eubatham]

All this monk talk is making my Paladin quite jealous.

[Vossius]

All this monk talk is making my Paladin quite jealous.

 

I second that. Paladins need something.

 

 

I remember reading that paladins were intended to be strong single-target DPS and tanks (the latter is moderately true) with strong supportive abilities. Turns out the modals are quite underwhelming and require a massive intellect investment to even reach the next row of companions and their bonuses are "allright" with the exception of the accuracy aura that requires an extra talent to reach its full potential.

 

It's a shame.

[Odd Hermit]

My Paladin PC has like 140+ deflection and 100+ reflex/will and ~70 fort. They're crazy good tanks if you play them as a main character and get the Faith and Conviction bonuses.

 

Now, I'm sure Fighter and Monk can get up there as well, but Paladin doesn't sacrifice any of its support abilities really - lay on hands heals for less if you minimize might but other than that their dispels and revives and aura all work perfectly fine. OTOH Fighter/Monk have more offensive abilities to choose from that do a lot less for a purely defensive build.

 

I would say that Paladin's problem is that it's one dimensional. It is great at Tank / Support and terrible at anything else, while Fighter/Monk can be built as a damage build, a tank, an off-tank hybrid or whatever. Paladin has nothing remarkable specific to the class for damage output. Flames of Devotion is just two harder hits each fight which is very lackluster.

[eubatham]

Paladin is a worse tank than a Fighter. All a Paladin has is slightly more reflex/will/fort for less deflection, half of the engagement (at best), less regeneration and less otherwise obtainable mitigation. Not to mention less battlefield control (knockbacks, positioning tools). And that's if the Paladin is the main character. None-PC (Player Character) Paladin's do not benefit from Faith and Conviction, which means that they're just as good of a tank as a Barbarian is.

 

When it comes to support, the Paladin pales in comparison to classes like the Priest, Druid, Wizard or Chanter. Their most useful ability is Reviving Exhortation, which resurrects an ally. Other abilities, like their aura's, have a pathetic range (even when dumping everything in Int) while others, like Liberating Exhortation, are a terribly weak imitation of a different class's spell to the point where they are useless.

 

It feels like a class that was developed in the early stages of development and wasn't given a second pass later on during development, while other classes were. That, along with that some its abilities feel more fit for other RPG systems. Liberating Exhortation would, for example, be a fine spell if it was something like "at will" and could be used instantly without loss of an action. However, with the current implementation it means you need to waste a precious action as (probably) a heavy armor user to cast a single target condition removal in a game where most debuffs are applied in AoE fields. Then you have Flames of Devotion. I've said it in other threads already, but you can build an entire Paladin around improving this ability. Yet you'll never get more than the initial 2/encounter charges, even at level 12 (the maximum level). Ect, ... .

 

They are "okay" off-tanks (mainly to buff the fighter tank) and great RP characters, but not much else compared to other classes. And you can even scratch "half-decent tank" off the list when they're not the PC character. When it comes down to it, they're an alround weak class with one or two mediorce abilities. Many people are justifiably wondering what place a Paladin has in most parties, especially when it comes to PoTD.

 

Its greatest feat of strength (according to many people that defend the current state of the Paladin class) seems to be that you can finish the game with having one in your party. Not high praise, considering that some people are finishing the game with one party member.

Edited April 11, 2015 by eubatham

[Laz0r]

-snip-

 great RP characters

-snip-

And that's the end of the pros for the paladin.

[Rhaegar83]

 

-snip-

 great RP characters

-snip-

And that's the end of the pros for the paladin.

 

I do agree with him that they are ok as off tanks, to provide a passive buff and stand there and not die.

 

I like to use an npc paladin as a 2nd tank to go with eder (at least early game). She provides a DR aura for him, and functions as a nice second meat shield that I can mostly ignore, as there aren't really any abilities that warrant using regularly. 

[Climhazzard]

I think all Paladin skills should be per encounter, that deprive the unworthy shouldn't require you to take lay on hands, and that greater lay on hands should be buffed quite a bit.

 

I've found Kind Wayfarers to be useful party members at least.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Odd Hermit]

 

Paladin is a worse tank than a Fighter. All a Paladin has is slightly more reflex/will/fort for less deflection, half of the engagement (at best), less regeneration and less otherwise obtainable mitigation. Not to mention less battlefield control (knockbacks, positioning tools). And that's if the Paladin is the main character. None-PC (Player Character) Paladin's do not benefit from Faith and Conviction, which means that they're just as good of a tank as a Barbarian is.

 

When it comes to support, the Paladin pales in comparison to classes like the Priest, Druid, Wizard or Chanter. Their most useful ability is Reviving Exhortation, which resurrects an ally. Other abilities, like their aura's, have a pathetic range (even when dumping everything in Int) while others, like Liberating Exhortation, are a terribly weak imitation of a different class's spell to the point where they are useless.

 

It feels like a class that was developed in the early stages of development and wasn't given a second pass later on during development, while other classes were. That, along with that some its abilities feel more fit for other RPG systems. Liberating Exhortation would, for example, be a fine spell if it was something like "at will" and could be used instantly without loss of an action. However, with the current implementation it means you need to waste a precious action as (probably) a heavy armor user to cast a single target condition removal in a game where most debuffs are applied in AoE fields. Then you have Flames of Devotion. I've said it in other threads already, but you can build an entire Paladin around improving this ability. Yet you'll never get more than the initial 2/encounter charges, even at level 12 (the maximum level). Ect, ... .

 

They are "okay" off-tanks (mainly to buff the fighter tank) and great RP characters, but not much else compared to other classes. And you can even scratch "half-decent tank" off the list when they're not the PC character. When it comes down to it, they're an alround weak class with one or two mediorce abilities. Many people are justifiably wondering what place a Paladin has in most parties, especially when it comes to PoTD.

 

Its greatest feat of strength (according to many people that defend the current state of the Paladin class) seems to be that you can finish the game with having one in your party. Not high praise, considering that some people are finishing the game with one party member.

 

 

 

Defenses > Deflection. Debuffs will wreck your deflection anyway, and deflection gets high enough after a certain point that almost everything is a graze or miss anyway.

 

So far I haven't found engagement limit an issue. I do run with an off-tank chanter though.

 

On PotD if you're using a shield you're unlikely to hit anything anyway so I don't view knockdown / knockback as a plus really. Other characters bring better CC I don't need my tank to help them really.

 

A non PC Paladin tank is still far better than a Barbarian as well, though I would give the edge to Fighter in that scenario.

 

I have found their auras and liberating exhortation useful as well.