Let's talk class balance....

[Longknife]

Continuation from race balance. And here let me piss people off by hyperbolizing the tier titles again:

 

God Tier

 

Cipher

Chanter

Rogue

 

Pro Tier

 

Fighter

Druid

Priest

 

Meh Tier

 

Barbarian

Wizard

Ranger

Monk

 

WTF are you doing Tier

 

Paladin

 

 

 

 

 

Seem about right?

[Schyzm]

best: casters

 

worst: people without spells

 

going to have neway probably: tanks, priest

[Longknife]

best: casters

 

worst: people without spells

 

going to have neway probably: tanks, priest

 

 

Fighters are freaking amazing, ijs.

 

Yeah they kill much slower than other classes, but at later stages they do not go down. It's painful to watch and not exactly exciting since all they do is swing their sword at the enemy until it finally works, but holy crap they WILL get the kill eventually. Not to mention they single-handedly hold half of the defensive line for the team.

[Schyzm]

 

best: casters

 

worst: people without spells

 

going to have neway probably: tanks, priest

 

 

Fighters are freaking amazing, ijs.

 

Yeah they kill much slower than other classes, but at later stages they do not go down. It's painful to watch and not exactly exciting since all they do is swing their sword at the enemy until it finally works, but holy crap they WILL get the kill eventually. Not to mention they single-handedly hold half of the defensive line for the team.

 

yah fighters are good tanks. I don't like any non-caster dps if we're talking "balance" though.

[Lasci]

If anything, it should be:

 

Real Good:

Cipher

 

Pretty Good:

Fighter, Druid, Rogue, Barbarian, Chanter, Monk

 

Good:

Paladin, Priest

 

Alright:

Wizard, Ranger

 

There isn't nearly as stark a difference between the classes as you describe.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Lasci

[Parsong]

God Tier:  Cipher.

 

Top Tier: Druid, Chanter,  Priest, High lvl Wizard.

 

Middle Tier: Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter, Paladin.

 

Low Tier:   Ranger.   (Buff pet and he'll be perfect)

 

Stupid Tier:  Monk.   (And I'll explain)

 

 

Monk is so counter intuitive.  Rogue/Barb do more dps, even in their defensive builds.  Just take one of these in your party instead of Monk. Apart from lower dmg and bad talents, you need to get hit to gain resource. So it's tank build or bust....yet he's a worse tank than Fighter/Paladin and even Chanter...... He's a walking oxymoron, or just a moron.  And lol, fists go to crap fast.

 

Where are the classic Monk talents that give fists -DT? Where are the bonus DT in cloth? The Magic resists? Where is the deflect?  Why is he called monk?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Parsong

[Schyzm]

several people seem to be overvaluing cipher/rogue because they perform so well in moderate fights. though I suppose you can have all sorts of ideas about balance. wizards/druids are still the workhorses of big important fights. 

 

I agree though that cipher feels like the best made class in this game. powerful, cool abilities, somewhat balanced feel-wise. too much of the game is too loyal to 20-30 year old rpg ideas like per-rest, accuracy, etc. and cipher is like their best attempt at a more modern rpg class.

[Lasci]

I think the appeal of Cipher is that she trivializes most encounters because they're done before she has to worry about running out of Focus, which is incredibly appealing considering that all the other spellcasting classes are constantly holding back their spells for that "big boss guy."

[mazeltov]

Crutch Tier: Cipher, Chanter, Druid

 

Solid Tier: Fighter, Priest, Rogue, Wizard

 

Fighter Lite Tier : Pally, Barb, Ranger

 

How Do They Even Work Tier: Monk

 

 

Caveat: heavy use of confusion and prone AoEs raises Wizard to Crutch Tier.

 

 

[Laz0r]

Crutch Tier: Cipher, Chanter, Druid

 

Solid Tier: Fighter, Priest, Rogue, Wizard

 

Fighter Lite Tier : Pally, Barb, Ranger

 

How Do They Even Work Tier: Monk

 

 

Caveat: heavy use of confusion and prone AoEs raises Wizard to Crutch Tier.

Sorry if I sound like a scrub, but why are Chanters being rated so highly? Didn't they just get hit with a nerfbat?

[mazeltov]

 

Sorry if I sound like a scrub, but why are Chanters being rated so highly? Didn't they just get hit with a nerfbat?

 

I put them there because of summon spam. Summons are babby tier in most rpgs, PoE included. Without summons, they'd go in the Fighter Lite tier.

[Shadenuat]

The only class that is not great at anything is Paladin. What he does can be replicated with a few items and scrolls.

 

Add some range to those auras ffs, it's like second-hand invisibility spell from Order of the Stick comic.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Shadenuat

[Benedictous]

If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times... NERF IRELIA. O wrong forums...

 

I think I have two videos that will summarize melee not using a reach weapon and Rangers/Monks.

 

First for melee: Only watch the HOLD, HOLDDDDDD part as you wait for tanks to get mobs settled down

 

 

Now for Rangers and Monks

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Benedictous

[Laz0r]

The only class that is not great at anything is Paladin. What he does can be replicated with a few items and scrolls.

 

Add some range to those auras ffs, it's like second-hand invisibility spell from Order of the Stick comic.

Hard to disagree with this imo...

 

Based of the testing I've done on PotD I'd have my list looking like this:

 

1: Cipher, Druid

2: Fighter, Rogue, Priest

3: Wizard, Barbarian, Chanter

4: Paladin, Ranger

5: Monk

 

Monks in my mind have the most counter-intuitive build out of all of the classes. First of all, they scale poorly while they level because their fists end up being garbage late game. Second of all, their abilities proc of wounds, which require you to get hit. When you're playing in PotD, having a melee DPS get hit that isn't a fighter or a barb with a decent health pool is going to result in their swift death. One would then assume that a monk should tank, but they get completely outclassed by fighters here.

[tnc]

You people love making things seem worse and more extreme than they are don't you. Currently rangers and paladins are just a little bit weaker than other classes. You put some of the strongest classes on pro and meh tier it's funny. For the hardest fights druids, wizards and priests are the best. Druids and wizards can just spam all their spells with cloth armor which is an instant skip button to a tough fight. Priest can give you insane buffs in first 2-3 rounds. You can get accuracy to 100+ deflection to 150+ and might to 35+ it is that insane. Cipher can't do **** in some fights you just cast one high level spell and wait for the focus lol.

[Shadenuat]

Monks can tank and they do it fairly well actually. What you're looking at is a disabler-tank. I'm using one as my main tank on PoTD now (

). My build is fairly basic: moon godlike, max Per & Resolve, everything else doesn't matter, some may like pumping Int but it works with just an average int too; heaviest armor, any weapon with +accuracy on it and preferably with something proccing or something "on crit", lighest shield (we need as much accuracy as possible to land disabling strikes). Stack all items with +Per/Resolve and deflection stuff on top of him too. Also an item for +1 engaged enemy can be useful.

Talents: first perk doesn't matter, then we want Force of Anguish. That's the fun skill - attain wounds, heal yourself with moon godlike ability (this is why I didn't dump Str), then 2-3 enemies fly across the screen and stay prone for 10 to 15 seconds (depends on your Int), or you can lock down one enemy for half a minute while everyone whacks on him.

Other perks: sword & shield style, hold the line, cautious attack. At level 7 I believe you get monk's unique talent which you can switch between +10 to all defences or +10 to deflection. I generally use the deflection bonus.

 

Does he perform better than Fighter? I dunno, he seems to work fine, but Fighter is probably can be even better. Does the character suck? Far from it. Is he unique? P. unique compared to cookie-cutter fighter, I think. Force of Anguish is million times better than Fighter's knockdown and as long as you get damaged it is basically of unlimited use.

 

For Ranger, you just build the character using his strongest points - single target (before you get bouncing shot) ranged DPS. So wood elf, max Str&Dex, take the bear, give bear +3 more DR for easier start, then go for pistols, crossbows or warbows and stack the damaging talents. Flank with the bear so you get more damage from ranger-specific talents. He should be easier to use and have a lot more sustainable DPS than Rogue who is more about openers and wtfpwning strong foes with dat 200 damage Finishing BlowBullet.

 

 

Cipher can't do **** in some fights you just cast one high level spell and wait for the focus lol.

I don't like the class for same reason. Sure once you get mind blades you can spam that 3 times and end most basic encounters but if you're fighting something with a lot of enemy heal bots after initial punishment it's crossbow time. Meanwhile Druid can just wreck-spam **** from multiple damage sources at time calling storms and plagues and generally ruin any Pharaoh's day.

 

Chanter I dislike for same reason, too passive for my tastes. Give someone Obsidian Lamp and a bunch of other figurines and you get yourself a Chanter. He's just a character to compliment some specific playing styles (like summon spam or gun blazing rogues spam).

Edited April 6, 2015 by Shadenuat

[portedgoblin]

Have you tried monk? Because I am having a very different experience. I will repost this from another thread:

 

 

I play a monk and really enjoy it. The wound mechanic actually works for me, even though when I look at it it should not, for the reasons people have stated here.

 

My monk is unarmed and have no armor. I send him in just after my 2 tanks, Palegrina and Eder. He does crazy single target damage.

 

In an easy fight, he will not get hit and get no wounds and just auto-attack. That is fine, since his auto attack damage is quite good enough.

 

In a hard fight with many enemies, 1 or 2 will start attacking him, despite the 2 tanks (4 and 2 engagements respectively). So now he will get wounds, he will start doing aoe damage with Rooting Pain and his auto attack damage goes up with Turning Wheel (think of it as a fire enchant for the fists).

If he starts to take too much damage, I will heal him of course, but also I will start doing CC to the mobs attacking me. With 2x per encounter stuns and Force of Anguish I can get rid of all mobs attacking me if I need to. This is the part that works out. As long as things are hitting me I have endless CC!

His attacks so often that even a missed CC is no problem, another one coming up in 0.5s.

 

Toward the end of the game (hard) my monk hit for 25-50 damage unarmed with around 2 attacks per second. He absolutely wrecks encounters. I don't know how crazy OP the other classes must be, but for hard the monk do WAY WAY more damage then needed in order to be viable.

 

The only problem I have is if I get dominated, I must rush to knock the monk down then or he will kill the party in seconds.

 

This is the most fun class I think I played in a long time! 

[tnc]

Have you tried monk? Because I am having a very different experience. I will repost this from another thread:

 

 

I play a monk and really enjoy it. The wound mechanic actually works for me, even though when I look at it it should not, for the reasons people have stated here.

 

My monk is unarmed and have no armor. I send him in just after my 2 tanks, Palegrina and Eder. He does crazy single target damage.

 

In an easy fight, he will not get hit and get no wounds and just auto-attack. That is fine, since his auto attack damage is quite good enough.

 

In a hard fight with many enemies, 1 or 2 will start attacking him, despite the 2 tanks (4 and 2 engagements respectively). So now he will get wounds, he will start doing aoe damage with Rooting Pain and his auto attack damage goes up with Turning Wheel (think of it as a fire enchant for the fists).

If he starts to take too much damage, I will heal him of course, but also I will start doing CC to the mobs attacking me. With 2x per encounter stuns and Force of Anguish I can get rid of all mobs attacking me if I need to. This is the part that works out. As long as things are hitting me I have endless CC!

His attacks so often that even a missed CC is no problem, another one coming up in 0.5s.

 

Toward the end of the game (hard) my monk hit for 25-50 damage unarmed with around 2 attacks per second. He absolutely wrecks encounters. I don't know how crazy OP the other classes must be, but for hard the monk do WAY WAY more damage then needed in order to be viable.

 

The only problem I have is if I get dominated, I must rush to knock the monk down then or he will kill the party in seconds.

 

This is the most fun class I think I played in a long time! 

 

Yup, i have the same experience with my offensive Monk. I only took disable and dps abilities and even the unarmed strikes are really good for most of the game. I guess the reason so many people complain there are some classes that dont work is they just play the early game with them. After defiance bay every class gets op in some way when built right.

 

People especially have the wrong idea about melee dps. They get huge dps and also large numbers of defensive stats too with priest buffs and equipment. There is a level 4 priest spell that both increases your accuracy/might and decreases enemy's. You can stack buffs and debuffs to an insane level in just first 2-3 rounds. You can give -40 accuracy to enemy and +40 to yourself it gets hillarious. ı'm not even gonna talk about deflection it's really easy to buff and for example there are rings that give 10+ deflection for gods sake.

[Sleazebag]

Monks seem to suffer a lot from rumors that people spread without playing them. The one about unarmed being absolutely unplayable for example. The passive accuracy bonuses you get, with the increased damage, and the absolutely insane attack speed, makes unarmed pretty damn powerful. I don't think missing out on the more generic enchants is a problem there - as a monk you'll probably miss the leech enchant the most, for example. 

 

Plus they have some of the best abilities in the game. That 10 sec prone alone is insane. Torment's reach becomes spammable in certain fights. 

 

Really, try actually playing the class, and put more thought into the stats, and you'll find that the class is insanely powerful.

[Climhazzard]

Monk is definitely getting heavily underestimated, monk has enough base defense and crowd control that he/she can easily fight on the front line with an offensive spec while accumulating wounds for unlimited ability use.  Maybe it's different on PotD but on hard my monk accumulated far more damage in my playthrough than my other characters, without excessive knockouts.  More than double the damage out put of both the druid and cipher.  Maybe I just hit on a great spec for monk, it's probably my favorite class right now.

[MadDemiurg]

Top tier:

Druid, Wizard level 5+ (lol at meh tier some put him into), Priest, Cipher(yes, he cant nova like the other casters, but even one spell from him at lvl 11+ is instant win and his ranged weapon dps is also great, plus you can generate tons of focus very quickly if you know how), Barb (with bug fixes will go down a tier)

Good tier:

Fighter, Rouge, Chanter, Monk(again lol at bottom tier, properly built monk tanks are quite great, they're quite far from their supposed archetype though)

Meh tier:

Paladin, Ranger

 

That been said balance is not that bad in the game and even meh tier can be quite decent. There's no bad tier.

[dunehunter]

Top tier:

Druid, Wizard level 5+ (lol at meh tier some put him into), Priest, Cipher(yes, he cant nova like the other casters, but even one spell from him at lvl 11+ is instant win and his ranged weapon dps is also great, plus you can generate tons of focus very quickly if you know how), Barb (with bug fixes will go down a tier)

Good tier:

Fighter, Rouge, Chanter, Monk(again lol at bottom tier, properly built monk tanks are quite great, they're quite far from their supposed archetype though)

Meh tier:

Paladin, Ranger

 

That been said balance is not that bad in the game and even meh tier can be quite decent. There's no bad tier.

 

This is also my class tier

[Luj1]

Continuation from race balance. And here let me piss people off by hyperbolizing the tier titles again:

 

God Tier

 

Cipher

Chanter

Rogue

 

Pro Tier

 

Fighter

Druid

Priest

 

Meh Tier

 

Barbarian

Wizard

Ranger

Monk

 

WTF are you doing Tier

 

Paladin

 

 

 

 

 

Seem about right?

 

 

Good post. We need a topic like this. By the way, can you explain to me why Rogues are God tier? I thought it'd be in Meh tier. Also, I thought Paladins would be in Pro tier.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Luj1

[Jojobobo]

I think Paladins, at least Wayfarers, are pretty decent - you can hit hard and tank whilst healing Endurance (making my attribute picks for them high Might, highish resolve, medium Int and Con). Give them Hold the Line, and they're pretty similar to a Fighter (arguably nicer in that they don't have to use a defensive mode which lowers their attack speed as their offenses are already sky high) - but with added healing (even without being a Wayfarer you can cleric with Lay on Hands) and reasonable modal party buffs. Plus, Bleak Walkers are cool

 

I just think they're a bit outclassed in all their uses by classes dedicated to each respective function (for tanking Fighters are better, for high DPS Barbarians and Ciphers are better, for healing Priests and possibly Chanters are better, and for modal buffs again Chanters are better) - however their versatility and the fact they can cover a lot of these niches in one package is pretty good. Are they the best at any one niche? No. Are they good at a great deal of them? Yes.

 

The Ranger from personal experience I've found to be pretty much garbage - you don't need to be a Ranger to use ranged weapons effectively so what's the point? Plus the animal companion is a complete waste - I took the bear thinking it would be tanky but even with Resilient Companion it still went down remarkably easily, producing holes in my line that let people get to my squishies which was not good at all. I guess you'd be best going for a high damage animal and using it to flank all the time, but better yet don't pick a Ranger. Having said that - maybe a party with 5 Rangers and a Fighter would be fun, you'd have so many critters running around and so much ranged damage that you'd imagine stuff would go down pretty easy.

 

I'm finding the Barbarian to be great, I'm playing on hard and started with a Con of 3 (so that I could maximise Might, Dex and Int and have decent Res as I also dropped Per to 3) and they're still surprisingly tanky - not as tanky as a Fighter but they also vastly out damage a Fighter so there you go. Carnage really is a great ability, the AoE with high Int is impressive and it dramatically helps with clearing a room (allowing you to focus on whatever heavy hitter they've got going on and kill the weaker annoyances at the same time). Overall I'd definitely encourage people to go for a Barbarian on their party for high DPS.

[Jarlhen]

Cipher and Chanter are a fair bit ahead of all the other classes. Rangers and paladins are a fair bit behind. Then everyone else kind of ends up in the middle. The big problem to me is that ranger and paladin are just two pointless classes outside of RP. Then it's weird that Cipher and Chanter are so damn good. Cipher especially. But I think most other classes are pretty solidly balanced. Monk certainly isn't bad, monks are very good actually. No, paladin and then ranger are the big issues to me.