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Wizard's spells odd damage design.

wizard game mechanics combat balance

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#1
BugsVendor

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I don't expect this game to be balanced league of legends style.

 

I know there has always been unbalanced spells / abilities in IE games yet since they did so many good changes I wonder why was there no further insight into this mechanic.

 

Just take a look at first level wizard spells.

 

Fan of flames (40 -55) vs Reflex (+ 10 acc) [most of the time you can target a large group]

 

Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp (19-28) and a -10 acc debuff. vs delfection ( + 10 acc) [ 1 target ]

 

Minoletta Minor Missiles  (30 -54) [1 target] vs deflection

 

Discarding the -10 acc de buff which is minor anyway there is only one clear winner.

 

Consider also that 2nd one has supper close range, you risk losing the wizard when casting. I know Fan of flames is theoretically more difficult to use but most of the time you won't have any problems.

 

I don't see any logic in this design. Heavy aoe spells where you can target almost all enemies from an encounter should have lower damage than the spells that target 1 individual. Otherwise why bother?

 

Spells that require the wizard to come close to the target should be greatly buffed so the risk / reward balance is satisfied.

 

Edited:

I forgot to add the the 2 latter spells are rolled vs deflection. Most of monsters have more deflection than reflex so they are harder to hit also. At least that's the case on PoD.

 

 

I will repeat myself : I don't expect the devs to balance this game like league of legends but it doesn't make any sense to me.


Edited by BugsVendor, 05 April 2015 - 05:39 AM.

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#2
BugsVendor

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Nobody bothered by the fact that there is only one viable level 1 spell ?


Edited by BugsVendor, 05 April 2015 - 12:00 PM.


#3
Sugam

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Only one? That's your opinion. I agree with the notion though that spells for makes need to be looked at more, particularly the self defense spells. The real problem is from the others, is in this game, spell damage never goes up from leveling, unless of course modified from a talent or item. They made it simple and they clearly rushed it which I can understand that. I just hope they put more time into these things in the future seeing they won't have to redesign everything again if there is a sequel :)

#4
Dongom

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Wizard is for CC, if you want higher spell damage recruit a Cipher/Druid.  Cipher dps can be built significantly higher than Wizard, and some items basically give him unlimited resource to spam them forever.


Edited by Dongom, 05 April 2015 - 12:18 PM.


#5
Horrorscope

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Nobody bothered by the fact that there is only one viable level 1 spell ?

 

I know I have two I use a lot and several I've never tried.



#6
PrimeJunta

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You're mistaken. -10 ACC debuff is not "minor," it's a very big deal indeed. Fan of Flames is indeed great, but so is Chill Fog (can be cast from behind your front line), that Ice Blades thing which also Hobbles, Slicken even after the nerf, Thrust of Tattered Veils if you're facing a caster, and Eldritch Aim if you're targeting a (hard-to-hit) boss.

 

(It's the level 2 spells I'm having trouble with. Curse of Blackened Sight is awesome, Fetid Caress sometimes useful, but I haven't had much luck with Rolling Flame, Binding Web is obviously worse than Slicken or that Ice Blades thing that also hobbles, and the gishy self-buffs/self-defense spells are a waste of a cast and a spell slot.)


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#7
dirigible

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Only one viable level 1 spell? Woah woah woah...

 

Slicken, Chill Fog, and Fan of Flames are all great

Honorable mentions to Eldritch Aim and Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights (unless you have a priest), 



#8
Dongom

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Guys, he said damage in the title.


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#9
Emptiness

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Which spells seem good to you will be dictated by how you play/use your Wizard.

 

If your goal is to maximize the damage output of the Wizard then of course Fan of Flames is going to be at the top of your list.  Using it effectively is going to require you to position yourself carefully, however.  You may need to lock down all of the enemy melee in engagement and then move around to flank the enemy to get off a good Fan without also roasting your own party.  Being able to do that dictates certain choices with regard to party composition (ie you must have several tanks, probably each able to engage multiple targets) and tactics (you can't be fighting in a chokepoint or your Wizard won't be able to move around the flank).  This is a generalization of course, but I suspect that overloading the party with tanks and being unable to use chokepoints are disadvantages that probably make up for Fan of Flames being so good.  Without getting into an argument of whether that tradeoff is balanced, I will point out that tradeoffs are fundamental to asymmetrical balance.

 

A spell like Minor Missiles may only hit one target, but it is much easier to use because there's no risk of friendly fire.  Sometimes being able to burn down a specific dangerous enemy is more important than throwing out a bunch of AoE damage.  Since you can take four spells there's no need to pick Fan instead of Minor Missiles; you can take both and use the one that fits the circumstance best.

 

Sunless Grasp is an example of a spell that is intended to be situational.  It doesn't do enough to warrant running your Wizard into danger just to cast it - but that's not the point of taking it.  If you take Sunless Grasp it should be so that if an enemy does get to your Wizard and starts hurting him, you can throw out an attack that will harm that enemy but also decrease its ability to harm your Wizard.  That buys the Wizard more time to kill it first, or time for another character to come to the Wizard's aid.  Again, since you have four spells that you can have available, you don't have to miss out on access to more general-use spells in order to have a situational defensive spell like this.

 

Those aren't the only three good Wizards spells, either.  The most important thing is to pick the spells that are going to work best for how you play your Wizard, and then realize that the spells you aren't taking aren't necessarily bad spells, but rather may be spells that are intended to work with a different Wizard playstyle.


Edited by Emptiness, 05 April 2015 - 12:26 PM.

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#10
Caerdon

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Minoletta's has 15 m range, it's Fast and it attacks three times. Kalakoth's -10 Accuracy is great for when your wizard is under attack. Fan can be extremely powerful but's it's often situational precisely because of it's huge area. And they all deal different types of damage.

 

Seriously, I don't see a problem here. Even if some of them are better than others, they all serve a purpose.


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#11
BugsVendor

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Minoletta's has 15 m range, it's Fast and it attacks three times. Kalakoth's -10 Accuracy is great for when your wizard is under attack. Fan can be extremely powerful but's it's often situational precisely because of it's huge area. And they all deal different types of damage.

 

Seriously, I don't see a problem here. Even if some of them are better than others, they all serve a purpose.

 

I considered 3 missiles in my dmg calculation.

 

I don't know about other difficulties but on path of the damned -10 accuracy is usless, shade on your wizard will still kill him in a few seconds.

 

Sometimes you have to walk a little bit, but still you can cast fan of flames in majority of the situations without any troubles.

 

The biggest question I have is why the aoe spells have the same damage as single target ones... 


Edited by BugsVendor, 05 April 2015 - 12:34 PM.


#12
dirigible

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Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.



#13
BugsVendor

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Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.

 

 

Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?



#14
Dongom

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Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.

 

 

I know I'm just saying I think he's talking about classic direct dmg nuking.

 

 

 


 

Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

 

How? The cone is kinda short do you have Wizzy in front line?


Edited by Dongom, 05 April 2015 - 12:43 PM.


#15
Daemonjax

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I considered 3 missiles in my dmg calculation.

 

 

 

 

If the 3 missiles are affected by DR individually (I think they are), the damage is significantly less than just adding the missiles together.

 

I agree that fans of flames (aka burning hands) is the best level 1 spell now.


Edited by Daemonjax, 05 April 2015 - 12:44 PM.

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#16
Xionanx

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Wizards in PoE suffer from:

 

1.  The  D&D Past - For some reason people seem to think Wizards should have spell books and be forced to memorize spells.  This trope works fine in D&D, since the system is designed with that in mind, Wizards tended to have a wider variety of spells available to them and every class had to have a select "Set" of spells they had prepared.  (Clerics/Rogues/Druids.. all had preparation limits).    Wizards in PoE however are hobbled by this mechanic for "Tradition" sake, while Priests Druids Etc get access to full spell sets and cast whatever they want on the fly.  Again, the "benefits" wizards had in D&D do NOT carry over and compare to the system mechanics in PoE.  Again, the only reason it is the way it is, is because thats what people expect.. but functionally there is NO JUSTIFIED REASON FOR IT IN POE.

 

It would be different, if like D&D you had to "know" a spell to make a scroll of it and Wizards got the ability to scribe scrolls for free without having to spend a talent point. But since anyone can make a scroll regardless of their ability.. meh.   It would also be different if Wizard spells were inherently "Stronger" then other classes spells, making you need to "hunt down" the spells to justify the increase power, however this is not the case.  OR  Druids and Priests had Deities that limit their access to spells.. IE, you worship X guy you get Y spells and thats it..  again tho, not the case.

 

2.  Spells not allowing out of combat casting - Again, if a wizard is utility then a wizard should be able to be USED as utility, let me "Set up the bomb" before the fight starts.  Why is it the priest can lay down tons of traps?  Again. poor design decision.  Granted, this effects all classes, not just wizards.

 

3.  Some spells should be AUTO HIT.  I personally think the missiles spells, since they are "Copies" of Magic Missiles should function like magic missiles.  They are a single target damage spell, you are limited i the number you can cast per day.. so why not make them a guaranteed hit?

 

4.  Spell Duration - In a RT combat system like PoE having spells with "low" base durations is an issue, especially with the "per rest" casting limitations of casters.  If I can only cast an deflection buff 4 times a day, I expect that buff to last for HOURS of in game time, not seconds.  None of the buffs in PoE are anywhere near as good as their D&D IE counterparts considering that was the "goal" they were shooting for.

 

I fully expect a mod to come out soon that changes all spells in the game to be use-able out of combat, and buffs to have their duration boosted to allow for more "Tactical' game-play and less "Do one fight blowing all your spells then go back to town" game-play..

 

I also wouldn't mind a mod that gets rid of the grimoires entirely and treats wizard spells like the priest/druid spells


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#17
View619

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Nobody bothered by the fact that there is only one viable level 1 spell ?

 

Yes, it's a common argument that FoF needs to be re-examined. For a first level spell and when compared with third level Fireball, it does a lot of damage. Not sure why it doesn't do less than Jolting Touch when it's AOE and touch spells require you to enter melee range. That being said, it's not the only useful first level spell.

 

 

I fully expect a mod to come out soon that changes all spells in the game to be use-able out of combat, and buffs to have their duration boosted to allow for more "Tactical' game-play and less "Do one fight blowing all your spells then go back to town" game-play..

 

 

It should be obvious that POE does not promote this style of game play. If it did, the rest system would not exist.


Edited by View619, 05 April 2015 - 12:46 PM.


#18
Caerdon

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Minoletta's has 15 m range, it's Fast and it attacks three times. Kalakoth's -10 Accuracy is great for when your wizard is under attack. Fan can be extremely powerful but's it's often situational precisely because of it's huge area. And they all deal different types of damage.

 

Seriously, I don't see a problem here. Even if some of them are better than others, they all serve a purpose.

 

I considered 3 missiles in my dmg calculation.

 

I don't know about other difficulties but on path of the damned -10 accuracy is usless, shade on your wizard will still kill him in a few seconds.

 

Sometimes you have to walk a little bit, but still you can cast fan of flames in majority of the situations without any troubles.

 

The biggest question I have is why the aoe spells have the same damage as single target ones...

 

I meant that striking three times has certain amount of value in itself. Think Ironskin.

 

The game is not balanced with PotD in mind, nor should it be. -10 ACC is significant on Hard.


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#19
dirigible

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Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

I dunno what difficulty you're playing on, but on Normal, Fan of Flames definitely won't two-shot most encounters.



#20
Dongom

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Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

I dunno what difficulty you're playing on, but on Normal, Fan of Flames definitely won't two-shot most encounters.

 

 

My cipher/druid usually kills enemies on any encounter before I can get in proper FoF range anyways.

 

Wizard is best equiped with mostly all CC/Utility spells, allowing other ranged to max out their superior DMG.  The missiles and other stuff is just a waste, except for a tiny handful of T3+ spells.


Edited by Dongom, 05 April 2015 - 12:53 PM.






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