Hey Oby!

[Zoraptor]

Feeble, but true Wals? Then it isn't really feeble is it? More like it's inconvenient or unpleasant but true.

 

Plus if I'm exploiting the Rwandan genocide to make a cheap point about the french I can equally argue you're exploiting the Rwandan genocide to try and shut down criticism of the french  involvement in it. If we want to go down that route.
 

 

Guys, guys. Bruce = Oby, for sure. Search your heart: you know it's true! They even came back to the forums yesterday within an hour of each other!

 
If that's true, the individual behind the accounts is a very mentally disturbed person. Also likely a paid troll.
 
The mods likely can confirm or deny with an IP comparison check. It's doubtful the individual is smart enough to use a proxy. Good website metrics software also could confirm/deny, though I wouldn't necessarily expect mods to have access to that info, if Obsidian is even keeping track.

 

 
I'm certainly not entirely serious, there's a potential explanation for people disappearing over Easter (hmm, though oby is meant to be Russian! His Easter should be later! Whoaah.gif) that is wholly unsuspicious, though I am amused that they both returned so close to each other within hours of me writing the previous post. Besides, it's not really my business even if it were true, backseat moderators suck.
 
(And even if it were true I can't say that I'd care either, I'd probably even be mildly impressed that s/he could carry it off for so long. In any case, there's no chance they're being paid, they'd be doing it for the lolz. Plus oby has already been busted once iirc, when he was claiming to be a 17yr old girl. But mainly the thought of them being the same person amuses me immensely since it means that whoever it is would have been antagonising much of the forum with one or the other alt for years, successfully and without detection. I rather like the idea of my and our collective noses being tweaked that way, it's an excellent ego reducer even if it isn't true)

Edited April 7, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

We are all Oby.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

We are all Oby.

I am the Obyknven.

[Darkpriest]

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/the-russian-government-runs-a-troll-agency-to-115389567389.html

 

 

 

And who doesn't run paid shills these days ....

 

 

OMG they should check all the telecom and other mass consumer products producers and their practice... the same kind of thing is ran by every political party and I assume that by extension also by every government, so it is really nothing special about Russia's "troll" agency... it is funny though how it is tried to be placed like it is the only one out there :D

[Luj1]

We are all Oby.

 

Je suis Oby

[BruceVC]

 

Guys, guys. Bruce = Oby, for sure. Search your heart: you know it's true! They even came back to the forums yesterday within an hour of each other!

 

in other words you would support non-intervention in  Rwanda and be fine with the genocide of 1 million people or so?

 

 

Non intervention would have been great, wouldn't it? Imagine if the dear old Hutus hadn't have had french help and aid in escaping post genocide.... ah yes, such a nice daydream, at least some of those million murdered people would likely still be alive if the french hadn't 'intervened'. Funny isn't it, how people forget about who was propping up, arming and supporting the government and its militias at the time- and established 'safe zones', post genocide, to allow those militia to escape when it became clear they'd lose- in their rush to use the 'never again' (unless it's inconvenient, they're our enemies, their friends are too powerful, we're bored, there's no advantage in it, there's no money in it, the french are helping the perpetrators, the US is helping the perpetrators, the brits are starving them and helping the perpetrators etc) justification for everything, ain't it. Praise god though, lessons were learned! the french intervened in the CAR! and... well, they 'solved' muslim militias killing christians by getting christian militia killing muslims instead. Y'know, I'm not sure they actually did learn, did they? Except maybe that most people will ignore their complicity if it's convenient, of course.

 

..and more generally NATO turned Libya into a asteriskhole, stuffed up Iraq, broke up a sovereign state arbitrarily (funny how when Russia does it it's terrible though) stabbing the idea of international law (stupid idea as it is, but anyway) straight through the eye socket while creating an organ stealing klepto/ narco/ criminocratic statelet wholly dependent on NATO etc etc.

 

Please tell me you didn't just exploit the Rwandan genocide to make a rather feeble (if true) point about French policy.

 

 

Yes he did, its normal Zora posting etiquette 

 

This is his style, instead of acknowledging that Rwanda was a genocide perpetuated by Rwandans  he attempts to obfuscate the issue by blaming the West and therefore deflecting attention. Now its " the French who are to blame because they helped Hutu's to escape "

 

And if you seriously think I am Oby then you are more delusional than him 

Edited April 8, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

Guys, guys. Bruce = Oby, for sure. Search your heart: you know it's true! They even came back to the forums yesterday within an hour of each other!

 

 

If that's true, the individual behind the accounts is a very mentally disturbed person. Also likely a paid troll.

 

The mods likely can confirm or deny with an IP comparison check. It's doubtful the individual is smart enough to use a proxy. Good website metrics software also could confirm/deny, though I wouldn't necessarily expect mods to have access to that info, if Obsidian is even keeping track.

 

 

Just for the record Oby is many things but stupid is not one of them 

 

Firstly I don't believe he is a Troll, I have been on these forums for 3 years and he has never really changed his persona. He clearly speaks Russian and only once or twice has his posts suddenly been in better English.,..but any  decent translation software can do that

 

So then if you really believe he is a troll ask yourself how much effort it must take to constantly pretend you are someone else, to have to remember how you post and what you " believe " in previous posts. This would take someone of considerable intelligence ..and I would be surprised if he was that clever and devious 

 

So for me he is not a troll but someone who is really just anti-Western and blatantly pushes the anti-Western agenda 

 

I don't dislike him or really get annoyed by him, you cant really dislike someone who you can't debate with because thats how you get to know how someone thinks and what motivates them. Through debate ..and Oby basically avoids any serious debate 

 

So I read his posts sometimes but mostly I don't 

Edited April 8, 2015 by BruceVC

[Luj1]

Mr. Bruce you could use a little less mass media influence methinks :D

[BruceVC]

Mr. Bruce you could use a little less mass media influence methinks :D

 

My opinion is not shaped just by the media but by my personal experiences and what I have seen, probably same as you

 

But Luj1 you are new to these forums and I hope you continue to be active. Its good to see new members, please don't take these discussions personally. Its good we all have different views and perspectives ..that's the nature of debate

[Luj1]

I'll admit being stupid for debating politics at all, but taking that to heart? Nonsense :D

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luj1

[Zoraptor]

Yes he did, its normal Zora posting etiquette

 

As it is yours to be butthurt when reality doesn't conform to your particular view of the world, and accuse reality of 'anti west bias' or whatever the appropriate bail out to avoid admitting you were wrong is. Of course, you'll come back x months later with exactly the same 'arguments'...

 

In any case, I would point out that the first person guilty of exploiting the Rwandan genocide was actually a certain BruceVC, who you may be passingly familiar with. I just pointed out that there already was western support in Rwanda, just that it was support for the side who ultimately perpetrated the genocide, not against them and that your point was therefore rubbish.

[Luj1]

Rwanda was terrible and that's an understatement. It's a class A genocide. People mostly talk about the Holocaust, but no one is mentioning the Armenian genocide, Rwanda or DRC.

[obyknven]

Rwanda was terrible and that's an understatement. It's a class A genocide. People mostly talk about the Holocaust, but no one is mentioning the Armenian genocide, Rwanda or DRC.

Rwanda it's artificial genocide created by hands of US corporations. Main goal of this operation is kick off French corporations from this region.  Just Baldur's Gate Iron Throne operation in real world.

http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/04/the-rwanda-genocide-fabrications/ 

In fact, she is the primary purveyor of the inversion of truth that covered up the deeper U.S. role in the Rwanda ‘genocide’, and she spent the past 10 years of her life explaining away the inconsistencies, covering up the facts, revising her own story when necessary, and manipulating public opinion about war crimes in the Great Lakes of Africa—in service to the U.S. government and powerful corporations involved in the plunder and depopulation of the region...

 

The Des Forges and Longman position vis-à-vis their whitewashing of the Tutsi-led RPF/A-organized genocide in Rwanda certainly explains the sanitation of HRW reports, and it raises questions, for example, about how Human Rights Watch ‘researchers’ navigate their ‘work’ in rebel (read: Rwandan and Ugandan) controlled areas in DRC. It also raises questions about how, why and when HRW does or doesn’t expose the western operatives, non-government organizations and multinational corporations: a singular example is the Human Rights Watch report that mildly exposes the criminal operations of Anglo-Gold Ashanti—a company partnered with the Bush-connected Barrick Gold Corporation—in eastern DRC. HRW says nothing about Moto Gold, Mwana Africa, Banro Resources, Hardmann Oil, Tullow Oil, De Beers, H Oil & Minerals, OM Group, Metalurg, Kotecha, International Rescue Committee—and the many proxy armies, militias, gun-runners and other organized white collar war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Congo....

 

The role of HRW as an intelligence conduit to the U.S. Government is incidentally confirmed by Samantha Power in her book A Problem from Hell: America in the Age of Genocide—a whitewash of U.S. and allied war crimes for which she was rewarded with a Pulitzer Prize. While Power’s “bystanders to genocide” thesis about Rwanda is a total inversion of the facts, she notes in passing that “Human Rights Watch supplied exemplary intelligence to the U.S. Government and lobbied in one-on-one meetings” in April and May 1994, and that Alison Des Forges and other HRW staff visited the White House on April 21, 1994. Samantha Power is currently a member of the National Security Council in the administration of President Barack Obama.

 

Alison Des Forges continued to remain silent about western corporate and military interests in the Great Lakes region to her death. A perfect example of this silence is the very unrevealing March 2008 interview by the U.S. nationalist and Zionist U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum titled “Alison Des Forges: The Impact of Rwandan Genocide in Congo.”

 

“With U.S. military forces of the U.S. Africa Command (AFRICOM) now backing a joint Ugandan-DRC offensive in the northeastern DRC to wipe out the Lord’s Resistance Army,” wrote Madsen on 16 February 2009, “with hundreds [sic] of civilian casualties in the DRC and Uganda, and a secret pact worked out between Kabila and Kagame to permit Rwandan troops to occupy the eastern DRC, the target of both operations is securing the vast territory that is rich in commodities that the United States, Britain and Israel—all allies of Uganda and Rwanda—want badly. Those commodities are gold, diamonds, columbium-tantalite (coltan), platinum and natural gas.”

 

Massive oil reserves are also at stake, with major concessions bifurcated by the international border. Ongoing petroleum sector investment (exploration and exploitation) in the region involves numerous western extraction companies—many being so-called petroleum ‘minors’ likely fronting for larger corporations—including Hardman Resources, Heritage Oil and Gas, H Oil & Minerals, PetroSA, Tullow Oil, Vangold Resources, ContourGlobal Group, Tower Resources, Reservoir Capital Group, and Nexant (a Bechtel Corporation subsidiary).

[JFSOCC]

Ah welcome back Oby.

 

the Rwandan Genocide  is a case of overpopulation combined with 19th century Belgian tribal distinctions adopted by those who use it for their political gain.

 

You know, like everything in this thread: realpolitik.

[Luj1]

 

Rwanda was terrible and that's an understatement. It's a class A genocide. People mostly talk about the Holocaust, but no one is mentioning the Armenian genocide, Rwanda or DRC.

Rwanda it's artificial genocide created by hands of US corporations. Main goal of this operation is kick off French corporations from this region. Just Baldur's Gate Iron Throne operation in real world.

http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/04/the-rwanda-genocide-fabrications/

In fact, she is the primary purveyor of the inversion of truth that covered up the deeper U.S. role in the Rwanda ‘genocide’, and she spent the past 10 years of her life explaining away the inconsistencies, covering up the facts, revising her own story when necessary, and manipulating public opinion about war crimes in the Great Lakes of Africa—in service to the U.S. government and powerful corporations involved in the plunder and depopulation of the region...

 

The Des Forges and Longman position vis-à-vis their whitewashing of the Tutsi-led RPF/A-organized genocide in Rwanda certainly explains the sanitation of HRW reports, and it raises questions, for example, about how Human Rights Watch ‘researchers’ navigate their ‘work’ in rebel (read: Rwandan and Ugandan) controlled areas in DRC. It also raises questions about how, why and when HRW does or doesn’t expose the western operatives, non-government organizations and multinational corporations: a singular example is the Human Rights Watch report that mildly exposes the criminal operations of Anglo-Gold Ashanti—a company partnered with the Bush-connected Barrick Gold Corporation—in eastern DRC. HRW says nothing about Moto Gold, Mwana Africa, Banro Resources, Hardmann Oil, Tullow Oil, De Beers, H Oil & Minerals, OM Group, Metalurg, Kotecha, International Rescue Committee—and the many proxy armies, militias, gun-runners and other organized white collar war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Congo....

 

The role of HRW as an intelligence conduit to the U.S. Government is incidentally confirmed by Samantha Power in her book A Problem from Hell: America in the Age of Genocide—a whitewash of U.S. and allied war crimes for which she was rewarded with a Pulitzer Prize. While Power’s “bystanders to genocide” thesis about Rwanda is a total inversion of the facts, she notes in passing that “Human Rights Watch supplied exemplary intelligence to the U.S. Government and lobbied in one-on-one meetings” in April and May 1994, and that Alison Des Forges and other HRW staff visited the White House on April 21, 1994. Samantha Power is currently a member of the National Security Council in the administration of President Barack Obama.

 

Alison Des Forges continued to remain silent about western corporate and military interests in the Great Lakes region to her death. A perfect example of this silence is the very unrevealing March 2008 interview by the U.S. nationalist and Zionist U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum titled “Alison Des Forges: The Impact of Rwandan Genocide in Congo.”

 

“With U.S. military forces of the U.S. Africa Command (AFRICOM) now backing a joint Ugandan-DRC offensive in the northeastern DRC to wipe out the Lord’s Resistance Army,” wrote Madsen on 16 February 2009, “with hundreds [sic] of civilian casualties in the DRC and Uganda, and a secret pact worked out between Kabila and Kagame to permit Rwandan troops to occupy the eastern DRC, the target of both operations is securing the vast territory that is rich in commodities that the United States, Britain and Israel—all allies of Uganda and Rwanda—want badly. Those commodities are gold, diamonds, columbium-tantalite (coltan), platinum and natural gas.”

 

Massive oil reserves are also at stake, with major concessions bifurcated by the international border. Ongoing petroleum sector investment (exploration and exploitation) in the region involves numerous western extraction companies—many being so-called petroleum ‘minors’ likely fronting for larger corporations—including Hardman Resources, Heritage Oil and Gas, H Oil & Minerals, PetroSA, Tullow Oil, Vangold Resources, ContourGlobal Group, Tower Resources, Reservoir Capital Group, and Nexant (a Bechtel Corporation subsidiary).

 

 

I am aware of their involvement. In my opinion western presence only played off their hatreds to own ends. That approach was essentially no different from Yugoslavia.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luj1

[Luj1]

Ah welcome back Oby.

 

the Rwandan Genocide  is a case of overpopulation combined with 19th century Belgian tribal distinctions adopted by those who use it for their political gain.

 

You know, like everything in this thread: realpolitik.

 

What do you mean by "19th century Belgian tribal distinctions" ?

[Tort]

Much as everyone uses 'troll armies' (or alternatively, motivated truth tellers countering the opposition's troll army's propaganda and lies with enlightenment and truthiness) everyone uses the external threat card, not just the west.

 

[..]both are simultaneously right about the other but unable to admit that the other is right about them. Perfect, circular argumentativeness.

Going don

Its like saying that every country has an army (economical policy etc), while it can be useful to make such generalizations to people who see things in black and white, it is ultimately useless.. as it doesn't give us information on their seize or the way they are used.

 

For example: it can be useful to point the similarly brutal\intolerant history\teachings of the Abrahamic religions to a racist islamaphobe claiming cultural arrogance, however, it is pointless in any constructive discussion dealing with current issues related with Islamist terrorism. Yes, Christendom went through a similar crisis in the 17th century, but when we compare the two we look at the separation of the sacred from the secular in Europes political culture, that led to a growth in religious tolerance that has characterized the best of Western life since.

 

The West needs to maintain an image of an external threat, an enemy if you will, so that it could keep the society together.

Maintaining an image of an external threat has been a common tactic to distract from internal problems, one of many commonly employed by authoritarian states. Although arguably control of the media has been producing the best results, which is not surprising why countries with low quality of life maintain strong control over it, especially multicultural giants like Russia and China that maintain control repressing anything that isn't aligns with government position.

 

However the biggest threat to world peace is clearly NATO. It lives off civil wars and third-world warzones

Clearly 

[213374U]

What do you mean by "19th century Belgian tribal distinctions" ?

I'm guessing he means the phrenology-based approach to ethnic division enforcement carried out by the Belgians after WWI. Handing out Hutu/Tutsi ID cards based on such scientific criteria as the relationship between cranial measurement and intelligence, height, and skin coloring; heavily favoring a Tutsi-dominated power structure (they were apparently "more Caucasian" than Hutus and hence, superior).

[obyknven]

 

I am aware of their involvement. In my opinion western presence only played off their hatreds to own ends. That approach was essentially no different from Yugoslavia.

 

Lol.

This guy seriously believe what these wars happened because of some tribe steal some sheep from another tribe few centuries ago. Such things as fight between  mighty power groups for looting of billions valuable resources so  unimportant for him.

 

P.S. Crypto-Ukrainian propagandist detected, i drop this thread, nothing to do here.

[Malcador]

Yes he did, its normal Zora posting etiquette 

 

This is his style, instead of acknowledging that Rwanda was a genocide perpetuated by Rwandans  he attempts to obfuscate the issue by blaming the West and therefore deflecting attention. Now its " the French who are to blame because they helped Hutu's to escape "

 

And if you seriously think I am Oby then you are more delusional than him

I guess he needed to point out the obvious for some reason, to you ?

[BruceVC]

 

Yes he did, its normal Zora posting etiquette 

 

This is his style, instead of acknowledging that Rwanda was a genocide perpetuated by Rwandans  he attempts to obfuscate the issue by blaming the West and therefore deflecting attention. Now its " the French who are to blame because they helped Hutu's to escape "

 

And if you seriously think I am Oby then you are more delusional than him

I guess he needed to point out the obvious for some reason, to you ?

 

 

Nah not the obvious, just Zora looking to undermine and blame the West for all ills in the world.

 

I am still waiting for him to let us know that " Western sanctions have had no impact on the Russian economy" ...that always makes for a good laugh 

[Malcador]

He didn't write that the West caused it, granted sitting on their hands was not much help and if France aided the people that carried out well that's also a charge on them. Do you seriously believe this West is Best stuff ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I find it a bit funny how the biggest champion of American interventionism isn't an American. I suppose the loss of life and resources to protect your interests isn't such a big deal when it isn't your country that pays the price.

[BruceVC]

He didn't write that the West caused it, granted sitting on their hands was not much help and if France aided the people that carried out well that's also a charge on them. Do you seriously believe this West is Best stuff ?

 

No of course not, the West has its faults and has made many mistakes in the past

 

But as I have tried to highlight Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life...and that is by far the most important benchmark when we ask " what makes a good government " .Its not factors like military might or GDP, even though these are relevant to overall happiness, but rather a much simpler question that determines what forms of government in the world are to be admired and emulated ...and that question is " are the citizens of a particular country happy " 

 

So when we look at the various governments and ideologies around the world Western ideology should be seen as superior but not because its intrinsically superior but because of the quality of life of citizens in those countries. Why deny this? Lets give Western governments some credit and recognition 

[Gfted1]

Rwanda welcomes France’s declassification of genocide documents.