Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes

[CrystalDave]

Good to see the patch came out quickly, I was holding off on going further into the game until it released and the worse bugs were cleared away. (KS backer)

And, for what it's worth, Obsidian's response on the transphobic backer memorial text has made it much more likely that I'll continue to back future Obsidian projects. Good work.

 

Really enjoying the game so far.

[MunkiLord]

 

Meanwhile, the hate advocates who call for all men to be exterminated don't even sound like they are joking at all, especially considering their actions. But even if it WAS a joke, somehow that joke was ok, but this one wasn't?

 

A lot of hypocrisy here.

 

 

Going to have to disagree about the hypocrisy. It is possible to agree with one thing someone says while disagreeing with something else they say. Someone agreeing that the original joke was in poor taste does not, in any way, suggest or hint that they somehow think other things said by the "hate advocates" is ok. It is intellectually dishonest to suggest so as I've seen done numerous times in this thread.

[Arsene Lupin]

Self-censorship ain't the same thing as censorship. Decrying someone for exercising the former is just as bad as excusing those who enforce the latter.

 

That said, the "majority" of gamers likely don't care one whit about all this "SJW" nonsense, mostly because most of the proponents sound like 14-year-olds.

[Flouride]

I'm not quite sure which camp is stupider. Those that overreacted to the original joke or the camp that will now boycott all future Obsidian games and demand their money back because they changed the joke into something that actually makes fun of those who overreacted to the original joke.

 

F****** drama queens and whiny little ***** the bunch of ya. But I guess that's gaming community.

[Amo387]

*sigh* Adding to the conversarion won't accomplish anything.

 

Good job, Obsidian, on the game and getting patches out quick as issues pop up, and Firedorn and Obsidian on how y'all handled the stupid issue.

[KDubya]

 

When I was young we were taught:

 

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me"

 

Do they not teach this anymore? People offended by a limerick need to go to the hardware store, buy a bag of cement and harden the  #@*! up.

 

When will something else be deemed to be offensive to the perpetually offended?

 You do realise that scientific study has proven this saying to be woefully inaccurate right ? Words are a powerful thing. They do lasting damage. Largely when someone resorts to hurting someone else with 'sticks and stones' it is after words have hurt them. 

 So hopefully no one ever gets taught this this silly misleading rhyme ever again.

 

 

Words only have power if YOU give others power over yourself.

 

I control what affects me, it is my choice and I choose to ignore whatever I want to. If someone can not look past or ignore something then I truly feel sorry for them. Their world must be a horrible place where they are perpetual victims powerless against their perceived tormenters.

 

If Obsidian had stopped the limerick before the game launched I would not care either way. The game is their product and they have control over what they choose to include. They chose to include the limerick. They should have responded that freedom of speech means the freedom to offend. Je suis Charlie.

 

Succumbing to fascist demands while throwing out some PR spin is just cowardice and self censorship which is the worst kind of censorship. This is how  freedom dies, not with a bang but a whimper.

[makaisson]

Actually, there was a choice. They asked me if I wanted to change in light of what happened. I chose to change it so that they can concentrate on the game instead of this PR nightmare. They weren't going to change it, they asked ME if I wanted to. I can find another platform to write my controversial crap, and I will. They, on the other hand, did the right thing and allowed me to decide the fate of the epitaph. I chose to turn into something that made fun of the bitch-bastards that were complaining.

 

They went above and beyond what I would have expected them to do.

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

As I am still waiting for 1.03 patch to be made available by GOG, I have only internet screenshots to go on. From what I read and if my hang on English and poetry is good enough, Firedorn, you made it even better now. I just hope SJW don't read the new poem too closely. I would buy you a beer.

 

To Obsidian

 

While you fixed the issue and I went from 'chuckle' while reading original poem to 'laughing' while reading the new one, you overacted. And I am saddened by that.

 

You promised a product, which explores mature themes like soulless babies, soul implantation, rape, experimentation on humans, gods and sacrifices to name a few. And you delivered on those. And in a way I enjoy quite a lot. (Criers announcement about kid loosing his fingers was just plain funny.)

 

And then somebody with very special mindset reads a poem and interprets it in a very narrow way, gets triggered and you change that? On poems, who are known to be used for expressing somewhat controversial ideas in all ages?

 

I understand that first few days after the launch is very stressful and your PR was working overtime, but I would have handled it differently.

 

Update by Feargus Urquhart, CEO and Brandon Adler, Lead Producer

 

Backer Content

 

It's come to our attention that a piece of backer-created content has made it into Pillars of Eternity that was not vetted. Once it was brought to our attention, it followed the same vetting process as all of our other content. Prior to release, we worked with many of our backers to iterate on content they asked to be put into the game that didn't strike the right tone.

 

In the case of this specific content, we checked with the backer who wrote it and asked them about changing it. We respect our backers greatly, and felt it was our duty to include them in the process. They gave us new content which we have used to replace what is in the game. To be clear, we followed the process we would have followed had this content been vetted prior to the release of the product.

 

We appreciate the faith you have all given us into making Pillars of Eternity the great game that it has become, and we appreciate the strength of conviction all of you bring to every conversation we have together.

 

Sincerely,

Feargus Urquhart, CEO

Obsidian Entertainment, Inc.

 

If we happened to miss content, then yes, we will change it if we feel it is necessary.

 

Like Feargus mentioned in the update, we worked with many backers to revise their content for myriad reasons.

 

I'm not buying what you are selling here. What I would be willing to bet on is fact, that it was read by someone, who had a chuckle, green lighted it and forgot about it after a minute. Now, since your PR hastily promised to do something about it, you had no other choice, but to do something. And what you did was best out of that issue.

 

Whatever happened - happened. Thank you for making a great game with interesting story.

 

Continue doing what you do best - make more games like Pillars of Eternity.

Edited April 4, 2015 by makaisson

[Flouride]

I guess you are running a multimillion company as well then? Seeing how you would have handled it differently...

[vilverin]

The most ridiculous thing is the blatant irony in this: you people are fighting something with the very same weapons that you so vigorously oppose. It's funny how you can hardly distinguish between the twitter posts of the people who originally got upset, and the post made by some of the people here that are so upset by the update. The exact same egotistical, self-righteous and ignorant style.

 

How about we all go back to playing the game that we've all been awaiting for 2.5 (or, actually, 15) years?

[otterontheflightdeck]

I see a few people saying that the original limerick had nothing to do with transgender people. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents to try and explain how the other camp sees it.

 

For male-to-female transgender people in particular, being "found out" can have really dangerous consequences, and many, many of them have been killed because men find out they're transgender and fly off the handle. Not because the women led them on or "tricked" them, just because the men felt insecure or embarrassed about having displayed interest toward or had sex with someone they now perceive as male. Google Gwen Araujo, Nireah Johnson, Angie Zapata, Dee Dee Pierson... it's a legit concern in many transgender women's day-to-day lives and something they have to think about whenever a man shows sexual or romantic interest in them.

 

Jokes like "a man found out the woman he slept with was actually male and freaked out, har har" perpetuate the idea that it's reasonable to freak out after mistaking a man for a woman, or a transgender woman for a "biological" woman.

 

I agree that the limerick could refer to something else in the game world -- hell, maybe a man just put on a magical Girdle of Femininity or something, no transgender people need to be involved for it to make sense -- but to the people who were offended, the limerick perpetuates the idea that "gay panic" or "trans panic" is something funny/acceptable, and I think that's what many were objecting to.

 

As a transgender man, the limerick made me roll my eyes, because it's the kind of stupid **** I had to hear over and over again when I was younger. I wouldn't write to the devs about it, but I can see how others would be disappointed to see it, and I'm impressed both by the devs for taking action and by the backer who wrote the limericks for reacting with humor to the situation.

[makaisson]

I guess you are running a multimillion company as well then? Seeing how you would have handled it differently...

You guess wrong. But I've been involved with enough national level PR issues.

[Shardal]

Whenever you make a decicion to censorship content you make yourself a prisoner of your actions.

What is the next step?

People complain that the soulless babies are a metaphor for gay children and they are killing them because they are gay and now it must be changed.

IF you are ok with people getting hanged, starved to death, killing of endangered species, wiping out whole colonies of native creatures just so you can have a fancy stronghold, then you should be able to handle one limerick that was both funny and one of the better backer memorials. If I had backed the game at that level I would have been proud to be able to make a limerick that was as good.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Shardal

[Spieluhr]

I wouldn't have backed you if I knew this would happen. I'm not buying any of your excuses about vetting or tones Obsidian. I don't think you should have asked anyone if they wanted to change anything because of the moral panic of horrible, terrible people.
I have learned my lesson, never back any kickstarters again, wait at least some time after release to decide if I should support something. I won't make this mistake again.
I wouldn't ask for my money back because it was a risk I took when backing. I did so knowing it was a risk that I'd be disappointed.
My boxed game is being shipped soon, and I don't know how to feel. Since I already own it, I guess I'll play it eventually. The game sounds amazing from all people told me. I've been busy with other things so I haven't claimed my digital game, and didn't know when I would, but now I just don't feel like it. 
I've been disappointed by almost all kickstarters I've taken part of in one way or another, and was happy when I thought this would be different, but I guess not. Caving to moral panic, specially that of horrible people just disgusts me.
As an artist who deals with this kind of thing and sees other friend artists having to put up with it as well, this is important to me.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Spieluhr

[Allvaldr]

This change cost you a customer. I'm not sure if this post will even show up due to the moderation rules, but frankly...

 

More than one. F this.

[floyd ryan]

Very disappointed, really. Damn, Obsidian, I did expect better from YOU.

Edited April 4, 2015 by floyd ryan

[Jojobobo]

It's pretty pathetic they changed it, but I guess maintaining good PR and coming off as not transphobic was probably more important to them as a company especially when the source of the problem was so trivial in the first place and easy to change.

 

Still it may have been nice for them to maintain integrity and lay down that having a poem about prejudice in a game ≠ real life prejudice. It was clearly jokey in tone, it's annoying when people tell other people what they are allowed to find funny as there's a world of difference between finding a non-politically correct joke amusing and being a prejudiced person who persecutes minorities. It sends a bad message on a whole range of levels.

 

And I mean for god's sakes, they've got gay people on the development team. If none of them thought that a guy killing himself through shame because he committed a homosexual act was offensive, why should that be changed now?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Jojobobo

[Supreme]

Caving in to the social justice. 

Extremely disappointed and disgusted.

Out of all the things that are offensive in this game, trans jokes and suicide was the one that took the bill? How the heck do  you even justify that? Those fedora wearing asshats don't even represent the trans community nor do they represent those that commit suicide. Not that it would hurt anyone if they did the former.

Just like uninformed hicks, they will spout and groan about anything without ANY form of information, and guess what? about a majority of the people complaining hasn't even touched, played or known about Pillars of Eternity to begin with.

Social fedora warriors, when will this **** die.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Supreme

[Supreme]

 

The only opinion I truly value is my own. And Obsidian's. Because I like their games.

Edit: In all seriousness, the calculus I use is simple. It cost the people complaining nothing when this content was changed. And it resulted in others feeling safer and included. Since the cost was minimal (practically non-existent), removing the content is a net gain for the players and Obsidian. I will always err on the side of inclusion in these matters. That's my two cents.

 

I think everyone should quote this post at all times, if they cave that easily to some Social Fedora Warrior then go right ahead.

Also, being offensive to people and calling them nerd in a negative light makes you no better, Double Standard. You have no justifiable ground to be offensive to people on this thread by your own double standards, so if you are going to be offensive then that is your own fault and if you expect no retaliation then you are exactly the kind of people that people on this thread doesn't want to talk to; since you expect everyone to conform to you.

Triggered much, Double Standard? just awaiting the extremely long "analytic" and "calculated" nonsensical answer trying the standard shame tactics and turning the conversation around without ever justifying your own behavior and trying to justify the whole.

I am also excessively sure that you don't in any way represent the trans community, just like any Social Fedora Warrior as well.

I am trans, and you are disgusting.

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Tigranes

[Dark_Ansem]

Correct. We know that, even if content might be "controversial", we know the roots (the developers) are not, and are in fact very supportive.

[Shardal]

It's pretty pathetic they changed it, but I guess maintaining good PR and coming off as not transphobic was probably more important to them as a company especially when the source of the problem was so trivial in the first place and easy to change.

 

Still it may have been nice for them to maintain integrity and lay down that having a poem about prejudice in a game ≠ real life prejudice. It was clearly jokey in tone, it's annoying when people tell other people what they are allowed to find funny as there's a world of difference between finding a non-politically correct joke amusing and being a prejudiced person who persecutes minorities. It sends a bad message on a whole range of levels.

 

And I mean for god's sakes, they've got gay people on the development team. If none of them thought that a guy killing himself through shame because he committed a homosexual act was offensive, why should that be changed now?

IF people read it as transphobic it's more about their own issues than about the limerick. There isn't anything about transgenderism in it, but it reads more about ladies man mistaking a transvestite or feminine man as woman and then being so insecure about himself that he killed himself rather than deal with his issues. 

 

There was no problem until people decided that the joke was transphobic without knowing what the original author had meant by it. Thay could have tried to contact the author for clarification, but instead they cried foul and decided to start a cencorship rally to have the content removed. And then Obsidian decided to "ask" the author if he could change it. 

[PrimeJunta]

The Internet is serious business.

[floyd ryan]

Guys, Firedorn is cool with it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/74461-controversial-limerick-discussion/page-25?do=findComment&comment=1631723

Everyone wins, one side gets a "problematic" piece of content out and the other side gets a middle finger to those offended immortalized in the text.

Ok, his statement changes the picture. They asked him, it was his decision (i'd most likely did the same he did). In that case i don't understand why they couldn't just say so in the update. The update reads as if they actually found this joke offensive.

[Ashen Rohk]

In light of Firedorn's post and that he was given the option of changing and he did so to prevent further **** storm, I have a lot of respect for him as a person for immediately saying "yes" but also to Obsidian for not making this mandatory.

 

So, thanks I guess.

[kions]

Dear Obsidian,

 

Been a fan of you guys since you made KotoR II, backed this game as soon as it went up on kickstarter. Also a massive fan of the infinity engine games.

 

This game is amazing, and thank you for removing the joke! Just cemented all my previous feelings about you guys!

[Irx]

Obsidian are such pussies, disgusting.