Limerick edit thread

[distant_worlds]

All you self entitled folk do realise, that as it changes nothing in the gameplay

As soon as you cave to a twitter mob, your game designers will begin to look at every element they put into the next game through the lens of "will this generate a twiter mob that forces me to remove it later?".  The result of caving to outrage culture is pre-censorship, which is the ultimate goal of the censor in the first place.  They are attempting to create a system where creators are so afraid of inciting a backlash that they will obey every stricture they demand even before the content is produced.  It is, in effect, cultural terrorism.  Just as the mad bomber seeks to change society by making it fear, these outrage mongers seek to change culture by putting fear into creators.  Cowing to them will yield a banal culture that tiptoes around every issue and the spark required to incite outrage gets every smaller.

 

This limerick is a perfect example.  It's not even pointed at a possibly trans person.  Yet even that is now forbidden, lest the twitter mobs descend.

[PrimeJunta]

The man-tears ITT are delicious. Keep them coming folks.

[TheisEjsing]

I think it's time to give this forum a rest. It's nothing but entitled this or butthurt that these days. I enjoyed the company here a lot before the release, but seems like most of the people are staying away as well.

To OE, whatever you decide or the end result of this becomes, I really love the game, and I will back your next kickstarter, if you should decide to make one. Peace out.

[RedSocialKnight]

Given the tone of Josh Sawyer's previous response on Twitter ("I'll talk to our producers about it. it's hard to catch everything"), I don't think it's fair to say that anyone "caved" to anything.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

 

 

 

Firstly I'm of the understanding that referring to a trans woman as 'really a man' is 100% not cool.

Secondly I'm a backer and I thought the joke was kind of ****ty. It's a small thing, as people have pointed out, so it should not be a big deal to remove it or replace it. 

I really don't understand why people are getting so butthurt about this, it's sad.  

Whether it is ****ty or not is a matter of opinion. Whatever your feelings might be toward it, it doesn't give you the right to demand it removed. And people are getting so butthurt because there's a group of people on the internet right now, which thinks that their feelings are a perfectly fine excuse to go and bully everyone to remove everything they don't agree with. Surely, you can see why not a lot of people appreciate this?

 

 

It's interesting to note that as soon as Josh saw it he referred to it as something at least he didn't want in the game. 

So who is making unreasonable demands of the developers creative freedom?

My personal feelings is that this is just such a small thing that I really don't see the fuss either way but it's easy for me to say that I guess. I've read that 1 in 12 transexual women (using the term to disinguish) are murdered, 1 in 8 if you are a woman of colour. Imagine if someone came and told you those odds. So I don't know, I'm torn. Maybe we shouldn't let small things slide, maybe this is a fuss over nothing. Frankly I'd rather Obsidian just continue to make great games. I've defended the game everywhere I've seen this written about, maybe that's what we all should be focusing on, helping the game do well.  

Edited April 3, 2015 by Moonlight Butterfly

[deuxhero]

Can someone provide or point me to a Reader's Digest version summary of this apparent controversy?

 

My immediate and admittedly uninformed opinion is that removing something this bit of poetry(?) for fear of giving offense is probably an overreaction and that the reaction to this overreaction is probably a mindbogglingly over-the-top overreaction. But like I said, I'm not very well informed about the topic and would like to get up to speed.

 

Eric "Erika" Victorious: A man who pretends to be a woman and chants "kill all men" (repeatedly, even explicitly saying it was no joke after he contacted Sawyer) whined at Sawyer on twitter he was offended by backer content. This whining was backed up by Ian Mile Cheong, an avowed neo-nazi and the editor in chief of gameranxs (I haven't heard of it outside the connection to him either!).

 

Sawyer decided he cares about these two fools more than the 500 dollar backer who submited it.

Edited April 3, 2015 by deuxhero

[Dorsero]

Omg, the tears in this thread are hilarious. Keep em coming

[Esser-Z]

The thing a lot of you are missing is that it's a joke about a situation that often ends, not in suicide, but in a woman being murdered. And often times, at least in America, the killer getting away with it. There's serious bigotry involved with the situation, including the very idea that transwomen are men trying to trick you instead of, y'know, women.

 

Now, the backer probably didn't intend any of that. But that doesn't change the connotations of the joke. It added nothing to the game, makes light of deadly bigotry, and is insulting to a marginalized group. Why defend that?

[vattghern]

Pathetic. You should put "Professionally Offended Armchair Activists" at the top of the credits list because they evidently have more influence on the creative process than any dev.

[SnarkyArky]

Never give a bully what they want. They will just be back for more.

[Gorgon]

With everything that's been going on I think it's important that people be allowed to express themselves on this. If things get too personal and people start stepping over the line. Well, the usual response will be to time out the thread.

 

That would be a shame is what I'm suggesting. 

[Gorgon]

With everything that's been going on I think it's important that people be allowed to express themselves on this. If things get too personal and people start stepping over the line. Well, the usual response will be to time out the thread.

 

That would be a shame is what I'm suggesting. 

[Raventhull]

Ive read a few of the memorials around 10 hours into the game.I'm around 60 hours in now and haven't even looked at another since then.If it turns out the Backer wanted it changed and went to Obsidian about it,what's the issue?

[StyxxnStones]

 

 

2. It was changed to a joke about the whole situation (probably by the backer himself)

 

"probably"

 

 

 

That guy most likely wrote it.

 

"most likely"

 

yeah, we're being real clear.

 

Here's what I think "probably" happened: Obsidian told the backer to submit a new poem. Since he's willing to donate $500 to the project, he probably doesn't want to cause trouble for Obsidian and caved and submitted the poem you see in the OP.

 

The fact the backer made a new poem means nothing, the original should never have been taken out. He should never have been asked to change his poem.

[endgameoo]

I am pretty sad that this was changed when there was literally nothing wrong with the original limerick, manufactured outrage to say the least.  I backed this project in 2012 and I have been pretty excited about it since.  A lot of my excitement for games is directly related to the developer working on them.  So when I saw this all go down, I posted here about it rather than my normal forum haunts to speak up.  Seeing a developer cave to a twitter mob over a nebulous limerick is extremely disheartening.   That caving killed my excitement for this project and subsequently for playing the game.  I only had a few hours logged since school and work so its not a huge loss I guess outside of the money I put up for this game.  Call it entitlement if you want but my time is limited and there are other games I can play.  Where there was giddiness and excitement to play a game, I really can only feel disappointment and move on to something else.

 

While I wait for your official response in the backer updates, I am not getting my hopes up. 

[Raventhull]

Ive read a few of the memorials around 10 hours into the game.I'm around 60 hours in now and haven't even looked at another since then.If it turns out the Backer wanted it changed and went to Obsidian about it,what's the issue?

[ChipMHazard]

I like the lyrics in the new one, but it only exists because the original one was removed. And this one seems to make fun of those that forced its removal. 

From an ingame lore perspective it makes even less sense since it would have to be seen in the context of what has happened outside of the game. 

[Sakai]

"Even though we did exactly what they wanted, we sure got them with that sick burn." I'm sure that "killallmen" person would think twice before ever demanding anything from Obsidian again.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Sakai

[Arouet]

The level of outrage displayed today is several orders of magnitude higher than the original outrage to the original lines themselves.

 

To those who demand that others "grow a thicker skin", can you avoid sounding like a 5 year old first? Cause that would really help your case if you could pull that off.

[Ekaros]

Okay, so now it's time for me to boycott Obsidian and warn everyone about their practises for foreseeable future. I just can't stand this industry succumbing to outrage and losing it's artistic integrity.

[Esser-Z]

So, it's wrong to be outraged about casual bigotry, but it's okay to outraged about people being offended? GOOD TO KNOW.

 

Transgender individual face constant criticism and attacks for just trying to be themselves. Furthermore, it's medical fact that gender dysphoria is often accompanied by clinical depression. Posters here want to make things worse for already suffering people...why, exactly? Because they find it funny? Punch up, not down, folks.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Esser-Z

[vilverin]

Just my opinion, but I think it depends on the conversation between Obsidian and the backer. If the backer contacted Obsidian and suggested that it be changed, that's their decision and I'm okay with that. If Obsidian contacted the backer and asked if they were willing to change it, then I'm okay with that as well (still the backers decision). But if Obsidian told them they had to change it, with no choice from the backer, then I don't like that one bit.

 

Well, I have to say. The rewrite seems to be mocking those who started the furor in the first place. It's twice as funny now.

 

 

+1 to both of you. Glad to see some points that are not fueled by anger and rage around this "issue". Too bad you're the minority ;-)

[mindswayer]

All you self entitled folk do realise, that as it changes nothing in the gameplay....they do not have to tell you or inform you of anything?  

 

Yeah, just like "Added more backer names to the credits", right? Oh, wait.

[Arouet]

Would would really be amazing would be if all the armchair activists here could direct all of the "courage" they've displayed today to a real issue, like the **** that goes down routinely in Washington. The world would really be a better place if this fire showed up when it actually mattered.

[AlyxDinas]

Well, I have to say. The rewrite seems to be mocking those who started the furor in the first place. It's twice as funny now.

 

Even if it were doing more than having a lark at the situation itself, I don't think many people care. Or, at least, I don't see people in a tiff about the re-write. I think the original joke was dumb and ill thought. The new thing? Definitely not skin off my back.