Let's talk race balance...

[Longknife]

Here, I have an idea:

 

 

In the interest of trying to showcase what classes are considered the best, everyone list off the 11 classes and name which race you think would be best for that class.

 

Like this:

 

Barbarian: Moon Godlike

Chanter: Coastal Aumaua

Cipher: Hearth Orlan

Druid: Coastal Aumaua

Fighter: Hearth Orlan/Coastal Aumaua/Wild Orlan

Monk: Moon Godlike

Paladin: Moon Godlike

Priest: Coastal Aumaua/Wild Orlan

Ranger: Wood Elf

Rogue: Hearth Orlan

Wizard: Wood Elf

 

 

To me, it seems clear that Hearth Orlan, Wood Elves and Moon Godlike are the most easily exploitable. Anything where I don't expect range or do not expect Range guarenteed consistently, I want a Hearth Orlan. Anything I expect to tank with and take significant damage with, I want a Moon Godlike. Anything I expect to have consistent range with, I want a Wood Elf.

 

If none of these are perfectly applicable or it's the kind of class with a lot of utility that I'd like to remain up, then Coastal Aumaua and Wild Orlan feel like safe defaults because both of them gain defenses for free without conditions needed to trigger them, and more importantly both of them gain defenses from someone attempting to stun or disable them and prevent them from providing me with support.

 

Looking at my list, it seems clear Hearth Orlan, Moon Godlike and Wood Elves are considered top tier for me, whereas Wild Orlans and Coastal Aumaua are also quite good. Anything else? I have limited motivation to use. Fire and Death Godlike you could potentially make arguments for, but I consider both inferior to the healing Moon Godlike can provide. Humans are a fair default on any class that deals damage and could possibly go in place of some of my Coastal Aumaua choices if you're more offensively inclined, but again they're situational comparatively. Anything else is RIDICULOUSLY situational or provides a bonus that doesn't seem as neccesary.

 

 

  The main thing the races I named have in common is that their bonuses they receive are reliable and consistent, with the top tier three having especially powerful racials that can help offense or defense significantly, while the ones that are still good but not amazing provide "safe" racials that are universally beneficial, and thus easy to stick onto classes where I'm not sure if I'd like to use them more aggressively or have them hang in the back, but I know to value their utility capabilites and thus value any bonus that can help them stay on their feet.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Longknife

[gkathellar]

@Longknife - That list is nonsense. It makes dramatic assumptions about build, weapon choice, and play style.

 

 

Terrible or not if you are a melee class you will get bellow 50%. For instance if you are a barb or rogue you get bellow 50% almost every fight. Then IMO the human bonuses are the best - the accuracy is a very rare modifier.

 

Nope. My tanks/CC keeps my Barb and Rogues above 50% most of the time even on POTD. Besides, that Human bonus does not last very long at all. For a Barb, something Orlan/Death will most likely be used in the majority of encounters due to carnage.

 

 

QFT. If you're getting below 50% on a regular basis, you're in bad shape.

[RevBlue]

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

[gkathellar]

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

 

Because you only get it when you're half-dead, and most of those benefits are of minimal value to tanks.

[RevBlue]

 

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

 

Because you only get it when you're half-dead, and most of those benefits are of minimal value to tanks.

 

 

But it seems to me like it "super charges" you. I mean more health, hitting harder and faster, plus harder to get hit!

[Longknife]

@Longknife - That list is nonsense. It makes dramatic assumptions about build, weapon choice, and play style.

 

 

Terrible or not if you are a melee class you will get bellow 50%. For instance if you are a barb or rogue you get bellow 50% almost every fight. Then IMO the human bonuses are the best - the accuracy is a very rare modifier.

 

Nope. My tanks/CC keeps my Barb and Rogues above 50% most of the time even on POTD. Besides, that Human bonus does not last very long at all. For a Barb, something Orlan/Death will most likely be used in the majority of encounters due to carnage.

 

 

QFT. If you're getting below 50% on a regular basis, you're in bad shape.

 

 

In what way?

 

Barbs, Monks and Paladins all get involved with some degree of tanking damage, but all three are expected to take some degree of endurance damage. As such, they will undoubtedly trigger a Moon Godlike's healing effect, which will undoubtedly help preserve them and any nearby allies.

 

Rangers and Wizards are going to keep their distance almost universally. As such, the Wood Elf bonus is a guarentee for them 95% of the time. It's a pure offensive benefit, which goes nicely with their offensive capabilities.

 

Fighters are expected to tank and Rogues benefit from flanked (already targeted) enemies. As such, both get good use out of Hearth Orlans. Many of the other classes too can also see Hearth Orlan as a sort of default for if you cannot decide if you want that class to be ranged or a tank or not.

 

Anything I wasn't sure of, I thought Coastal Aumaua or Wild Orlan. For example a stun attempt on my Priest is very bad, and both of these provide some attempt of defense against that scenario so that my Priest can continue casting spells.

 

 

 

 

Even IF you look at my list and say "DATS NOT HOW I'D USE THEM," well then ask yourself how YOU like to use said classes (for example I put Hearth Orlan on Cipher because I typically don't have my Ciphers hiding way in the back, as they often come towards the front lines or engage an enemy to use some of the shorter range spells) and make a list all the same. I'm betting we would see a general concensus amongst multiple lists.

[Nortar]

Here, I have an idea:

 

 

In the interest of trying to showcase what classes are considered the best, everyone list off the 11 classes and name which race you think would be best for that class.

 

Like this:

 

Barbarian: Moon Godlike

Chanter: Coastal Aumaua

Cipher: Hearth Orlan

Druid: Coastal Aumaua

Fighter: Hearth Orlan/Coastal Aumaua/Wild Orlan

Monk: Moon Godlike

Paladin: Moon Godlike

Priest: Coastal Aumaua/Wild Orlan

Ranger: Wood Elf

Rogue: Hearth Orlan

Wizard: Wood Elf

 

Ok, here's my list.

 

Barbarian: Dwarf

Chanter: Dwarf

Cipher: Dwarf

Druid: Dwarf

Fighter: Dwarf

Monk: Dwarf

Paladin: Dwarf

Priest: Dwarf

Ranger: Dwarf

Rogue: Dwarf

Wizard: Dwarf

 

Because I see absolutely no reason to play other races, when there are dwarves available.

Just like why would you want to drink milk, when you have beer? 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Nortar

[gkathellar]

 

 

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

 

Because you only get it when you're half-dead, and most of those benefits are of minimal value to tanks.

 

 

But it seems to me like it "super charges" you. I mean more health, hitting harder and faster, plus harder to get hit!

 

 

(a) you're half-dead, so you're already taking damage too fast

(b) the tiny endurance bonus is useless, and it doesn't slow down all of that damage you're taking in any meaningful way

© hitting harder and faster is not very useful on a tank

(d) the people who need to hit harder and faster are also the ones who absolutely cannot afford to get into situations placing them at <=50% endurance.

(e) the ability shuts off when someone heals you

Edited April 3, 2015 by gkathellar

[RevBlue]

 

 

 

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

 

Because you only get it when you're half-dead, and most of those benefits are of minimal value to tanks.

 

 

But it seems to me like it "super charges" you. I mean more health, hitting harder and faster, plus harder to get hit!

 

 

(a) you're half-dead, so you're already taking damage too fast

(b) the tiny endurance bonus is useless, and it doesn't slow down all of that damage you're taking in any meaningful way

© hitting harder and faster is not very useful on a tank

(d) the people who need to hit harder and faster are also the ones who absolutely cannot afford to get into situations placing them at <=50% endurance.

(e) the ability shuts off when someone heals you

 

 

 

Well im not a tank, im a wizard

Although I do agree that it comepletely sucks that it goes away if getting healed and doesn't last the entire fight like other abilities that proc at below 50%

[gkathellar]

If you're not a tank, then getting into situations that put you at less than 50% is a bad idea (and it's not nearly good enough to serve as a panic button). So again - it doesn't help tanks, and it's unreliable at best for anyone else.

 

None of the abilities that proc at below 50% last the entire fight. They're either active at <=50%, or (in the case of folk) they have a short duration.

[Longknife]

(a) you're half-dead, so you're already taking damage too fast

(b) the tiny endurance bonus is useless, and it doesn't slow down all of that damage you're taking in any meaningful way

© hitting harder and faster is not very useful on a tank

(d) the people who need to hit harder and faster are also the ones who absolutely cannot afford to get into situations placing them at <=50% endurance.

(e) the ability shuts off when someone heals you

 

 

 

More importantly, there are alternatives with safer bonuses, for example humans provide both a damage and accuracy bonus when they hit 50%, but they retain the bonus even after being healed. A Moon Godlike self-heals when hitting certain endurance thresholds, a heal that extends to all nearby allies. A heal is universally welcome and can help both a tank or needs to keep tanking or a caster who needs to figure out an escape before continuing to deal damage; you might die with just a mere stat bonus before it can mean anything. Not to mention the multiple classes with consistent defensive or offensive benefits....

[Hellraiser789]

 

 

 

why all the hate for the nature godlike?

 

Whats wrong with bonus to dmg+health/endurance/fort+action speed/ref??

 

Because you only get it when you're half-dead, and most of those benefits are of minimal value to tanks.

 

 

But it seems to me like it "super charges" you. I mean more health, hitting harder and faster, plus harder to get hit!

 

 

(a) you're half-dead, so you're already taking damage too fast

(b) the tiny endurance bonus is useless, and it doesn't slow down all of that damage you're taking in any meaningful way

© hitting harder and faster is not very useful on a tank

(d) the people who need to hit harder and faster are also the ones who absolutely cannot afford to get into situations placing them at <=50% endurance.

(e) the ability shuts off when someone heals you

 

 

For point a) with taking damage too fast - how fast is that? How quickly are fights over? How much damage will an enemy do in a given amount of time? Maybe I'd be better off trying to watch some Let's Play videos but I'm trying not to spoil anything for myself until I actually start playing the game if I can help it (I don't consider this spoiling anything because its irrelevant to the plot, which a let's play would spoil)

[Manty5]

A question about death godlike as a possibility for the choice for barbarians instead of only for paladins:

 

Since carnage is percentage based, wouldn't having a death godlike barb continuously targetting the most-damaged enemy result in improved carnage damage to everyone?  

 

Or does it work out that every enemy getting hit by the AOE rolls a check against whether the enhanced damage applies to it?

[Kelstrom]

@Longknife - That list is nonsense. It makes dramatic assumptions about build, weapon choice, and play style.

 

 

Terrible or not if you are a melee class you will get bellow 50%. For instance if you are a barb or rogue you get bellow 50% almost every fight. Then IMO the human bonuses are the best - the accuracy is a very rare modifier.

 

Nope. My tanks/CC keeps my Barb and Rogues above 50% most of the time even on POTD. Besides, that Human bonus does not last very long at all. For a Barb, something Orlan/Death will most likely be used in the majority of encounters due to carnage.

 

 

QFT. If you're getting below 50% on a regular basis, you're in bad shape.

 

I wll not call it a bad shape. I will call it a way of playing. My main is a barbarian and I use it for tanking/dps on the front lines alongside my fighter to block the enemy.

 

The barbarian has the talents that when surrounded by 2 or more enemy gets 20 flat damage, and when on half endurance it has 50% more damage + the human passive (which is huge dps spike). I deliberately wait for the barb to go half endurance. The human passive stays for about 30 seconds, which is more than enough.

 

You can do the same for the rogue, she got an ability to escape engagement so when she gets to half endurance she can back a bit and then fight with increased acc/dmg. That flat dmg bonus is awesome in the hands of a fast hitting rogue.

[lord_wc]

It could work on a monk though as it is the only class that - despite not pulling aggro - is able to manage his own hp pretty well with wounds. A nature godlike monk might benefit from the stat boosts and those stats give arguably more dps than any other racials.

 

However I don't know if the time needed to damage himself down to 50% worths it or not. Maybe you could dump con down to 3 to have lowest max endurance possible (you can use that 7 stat points anyway to max mig/int/dex). That would redefine glass cannon both in the glass and in the cannon aspect. Seems an interesting choice I might roll one to try out.

Edited April 3, 2015 by lord_wc

[Longknife]

It could work on a monk though as it is the only class that - despite not pulling aggro - is able to manage his own hp pretty well with wounds. A nature godlike monk might benefit from the stat boosts and those stats give arguably more dps than any other racials.

 

However I don't know if the time needed to damage himself down to 50% worths it or not. Maybe you could dump con down to 3 to have lowest max endurance possible (you can use that 7 stat points anyway to max mig/int/dex). That would redefine glass cannon both in the glass and in the cannon aspect. Seems an interesting choice I might roll one to try out.

 

 

And then he died. The End.

[lord_wc]

 

It could work on a monk though as it is the only class that - despite not pulling aggro - is able to manage his own hp pretty well with wounds. A nature godlike monk might benefit from the stat boosts and those stats give arguably more dps than any other racials.

 

However I don't know if the time needed to damage himself down to 50% worths it or not. Maybe you could dump con down to 3 to have lowest max endurance possible (you can use that 7 stat points anyway to max mig/int/dex). That would redefine glass cannon both in the glass and in the cannon aspect. Seems an interesting choice I might roll one to try out.

And then he died. The End.

Why would it die? The AI is dumb as brick and if tank establishes aggro they won't switch. You could fight constantly maimed and wouldn't die...

[Zaruthustran]

Hearth Orlan's racial is strictly worse than Aumaua's might bonus for DPS. 

 

Hearth Orlan's Racial translate to a 2.5% increase in damage in the ideal situation and a 50% critical modifier. If you have some talents or skills that increase the critical modifier to 100%, then it's a 5% damage increase. 

 

+3 might is 9% damage increase flat, so Aumaua's are strictly better than Hearth Orlan's for DPS.

 

There's a big caveat here: you're comparing two different builds. In other words, you're assuming the Aumaua build has a Might score that's two points (3 points?!) higher than the Hearth Orlan. That's an apples and oranges comparison. Your calculations are no different than comparing a 18 Might Human to a 16 Might human. Or a 6 Might human to a 4 Might human. Yes, a 2 point difference in Might is a 6% damage difference--this information is not a revelation.

 

If your build has them both at 17 Might (after all racials and culture have been applied), then the only benefit of Aumaua is "anti stun/anti knockdown" or "extra weapon set". Which is strictly worse DPS than +10% hits to crits.

 

Not every build will have max Might. If your build is about Deflection, or attack speed, or duration and AOE, or health--if it doesn't have max Might--then the Aumaua racials don't even move the needle (from a pure DPS perspective).

[Hellraiser789]

 

Hearth Orlan's racial is strictly worse than Aumaua's might bonus for DPS. 

 

Hearth Orlan's Racial translate to a 2.5% increase in damage in the ideal situation and a 50% critical modifier. If you have some talents or skills that increase the critical modifier to 100%, then it's a 5% damage increase. 

 

+3 might is 9% damage increase flat, so Aumaua's are strictly better than Hearth Orlan's for DPS.

 

There's a big caveat here: you're comparing two different builds. In other words, you're assuming the Aumaua build has a Might score that's two points (3 points?!) higher than the Hearth Orlan. That's an apples and oranges comparison. Your calculations are no different than comparing a 18 Might Human to a 16 Might human. Or a 6 Might human to a 4 Might human. Yes, a 2 point difference in Might is a 6% damage difference--this information is not a revelation.

 

If your build has them both at 17 Might (after all racials and culture have been applied), then the only benefit of Aumaua is "anti stun/anti knockdown" or "extra weapon set". Which is strictly worse DPS than +10% hits to crits.

 

Not every build will have max Might. If your build is about Deflection, or attack speed, or duration and AOE, or health--if it doesn't have max Might--then the Aumaua racials don't even move the needle (from a pure DPS perspective).

 

 

Edit: Changed my mind. You were right. The poster you responded to said Aumauas are strictly better - that's NOT necessarily true, as you pointed out. My bad.

 

Completely unrelated - does anyone know if Barbarian's Carnage attacks apply to ranged weaponry?

Edited April 3, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Trauma_Hound]

I dunno ... my Hearth Orlan Bleak Walker Paladin of Skaen hits with quite a lot of critical hits ...

[lionspaw]

 

Hearth Orlan's racial is strictly worse than Aumaua's might bonus for DPS. 

 

Hearth Orlan's Racial translate to a 2.5% increase in damage in the ideal situation and a 50% critical modifier. If you have some talents or skills that increase the critical modifier to 100%, then it's a 5% damage increase. 

 

+3 might is 9% damage increase flat, so Aumaua's are strictly better than Hearth Orlan's for DPS.

 

There's a big caveat here: you're comparing two different builds. In other words, you're assuming the Aumaua build has a Might score that's two points (3 points?!) higher than the Hearth Orlan. That's an apples and oranges comparison. Your calculations are no different than comparing a 18 Might Human to a 16 Might human. Or a 6 Might human to a 4 Might human. Yes, a 2 point difference in Might is a 6% damage difference--this information is not a revelation.

 

If your build has them both at 17 Might (after all racials and culture have been applied), then the only benefit of Aumaua is "anti stun/anti knockdown" or "extra weapon set". Which is strictly worse DPS than +10% hits to crits.

 

Not every build will have max Might. If your build is about Deflection, or attack speed, or duration and AOE, or health--if it doesn't have max Might--then the Aumaua racials don't even move the needle (from a pure DPS perspective).

 

 

That's a fair point, but I did qualify that it's "strictly better for DPS". I can't think of any optimized DPS builds that wouldn't max might when so many of the defensive stats are dumpable for non tanks.