Controversial Limerick Discussion

PK htiw klaw eriF · April 4, 2015

What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Oh **** mate, you've just invited a ****storm.

Serdan · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

I'm just trying to get Cyphon to comprehend that you have explicitly stated that it was intended to be offensive.

RedSocialKnight · April 4, 2015

To his clubfooted child said Lord Whipple,

As he poured his post-prandial tipple,

"Your mother's behaviour

Gave pain to Our Saviour,

And that's why He made you a cripple."

(Hey this one's actually kind of PoE relevant)

pstone · April 4, 2015

Have you read his posts? He *knew* it was offensive!

Why do you keep defending him?

Any opinion will be offensive to someone. Some people think LBGT-lifestyles are offensive, some people think drinking alcohol is offensive.

I hope you don't want to reitroduce prohibition or forbid/censor LBGT.

I hope you don't want to selectively censor everything you don't like/approve of, and cry "Censorship!" only on issues you do like.

One can limit freedom of speech regarding hate-speech, like #killallmen, #killalllesbians, #killallhumanslargerthan2mcausetheyaretoofrigginbig

but thats a slippery slope...

Edited April 4, 2015 by pstone

Arouet · April 4, 2015

Well, if Firedorn asserts that he had a choice, contrary to what the "worked wth many of our backers to iterate on content that didn't strike the right tone" statement implies, then I'm not going to call that a lie.

I still find Obsidian's post on it bizarre and heavily implying that they would have forced a change.

You know how PR works... it generally make things worse when the truth isn't as bad as it seems. Sometimes not bothering about "What will people think if I say this? ... and what if I say that instead?" can make everything go smoother. Obsidian isn't perfect, but that doesn't make them terrible people either.

The thing is, if they are willing to bend over for this, it also reflects on their integrity in other areas... like development.

There are already big threads pointing out some fundamental flaws in the rule set, as well as some funky decisions with their art style. So this is just another highlight with something internally wrong imo.

Game is still impressive though

If SJWs had that power, trust me, wizards would be a lot more powerful.

Cyphon · April 4, 2015

Regardless of why it is changed now. Obsidian now has a huge target on their back for the professionally offended (or whatever you want to call them) after they smell the blood from this. I expect they are going to get a lot more "problematic" complaints coming up in the future because someone is offended by something. Josh should have never answered that tweet (then we wouldn't be in this mess now) and as soon as this happened Obsidian should have told them that the game is a harsh world were stuff like this exist and it no way reflects people who created the game beliefs. Oh, and then flip them off for good measure.

You've got it so backwards it's not even funny. The very best way to paint the target is to engage in childish one-uppery. Obsidian and Firedom responded rather perfectly. The showed responsiveness to the issue but Firedom also got to express his feeling that this was an overreaction to what was intended as a harmless jest, but which unintentionally offended people. The overall effect is an honest effort to keep the peace and nobody can fault Obsidian or Firedom for that. Had they done what you suggest, it would only be throwing gas on the fire.

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I beg to differ. You ascribe a lot of malevolent intent to someone you just don't know. Fact is, HE chose to change it when confronted with the criticism...as he has told us. HE changed it to keep the peace, which is behavior you'd expect from someone who acts maturely in the first place and didn't intend the offense. People are at different levels of understanding and comfort with these issues. If he says he meant no offense...which is what the first line of the changes indicate...then I have no reason to believe him. BY continuing to lash out and pillory him, or anyone else who might be trying to catch up to you in your understanding of the issue, you discourage him and everyone else who might unintentionally offend people from having the dialogue that might help them learn not to. When people make honest efforts to keep the peace on these things, the most productive response is "thank you, I appreciate that." They're more likely to accept, or at least respect, your point of view and try not to tread on it next time.

"The way I see it, I got to write something controversial and then got to publicly insult some people who didn't like it."

"Who knows, probably slipped through the cracks. I thought for sure they would have asked it to be changed prior to release."

So mature. ¬_¬

I hadn't seen those yet...there IS a lot of reading to be done if one is to be completely informed about everything that's been said here.

Certainly changes my opinion. However, I will say that there is a fine line between making a controversial joke and going too far. If he knew he was, I dunno. He obviously did know that he was pushing buttons on purpose if those quotes are true though.

Also, it's disappointing he thought he was "insulting people" with his changes. They could be read, and I did read them at first, as a nice gesture to keep the peace, but have his polite rejoinder. If he intended it as a insult, that's disappointing. The point here should be just doing what's best to help the community move past it and get back to focusing on the game and fun.

Longknife · April 4, 2015

Quite frankly, I'm pretty frustrated and disappointed in humanity right now, as I should be I think, when I encounter a handful of people that would rather cling onto resentment and anger and other baser emotions instead of acknowledge reality and confess that further pressure on Obsidian would be wrong.

Don't be disappointed, friend. There's nothing to be disappointing about. A lot of people see it as defeat, when it, in reality isn't. Don't hold on to the same negativity.

Nah not in that regard.

What I mean is this whole issue with GamerGate vs. SJWs that's been going on...

Don't get me wrong: not trying to start anything but I support GamerGate. This does not mean however that GamerGate is flawless and devoid of overemotional drivel and idiotic responses. I just had to go toe-to-toe with that on it's subreddit. Here we were (thanks to you) with a method to calm people down, make everyone happy and move on, and some people INSISTED that no we have drama, even when evidence suggested that they were wrong.

It's like if you're gonna sit there and claim SJWs are overly emotional and reactionary and make big deals out of nothing, then you better believe I expect more maturity and a more adult attitude when handling the situation.

All of this "But a PR guy wasn't COMPLETELY STRAIGHTFORWARD WITH US!" WTF were you born yesterday? That's what PR does.

"But the fact that they even CONSULTED Firedorn shows some attempt at compromising and is unacceptable!" What is this, the ****ing spanish inquisition?

For all the speeches about how ridiculous it is how people reacted to the initial limerick, it's sad to see the very same people who could see that are now incapable of seeing how ridiculous it is to cling onto this fight as it stands now.

People love drama. Simple fact and very unfortunate. But drama without something that warrants it is nothing but mass hysteria and rioting.

Had I let the negativity get to me to the point where I'm negative myself though, I'd be going "WTF SCREW THESE FORUMS AND SCREW KiA I QUIT BOTH OF THEM." Stupidity and needless drama can be expected anywhere, but that's no reason to think any less of the places where it is encountered.

....It's just kind of a headache at times.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Longknife

deuxhero · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

Arouet · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Knock yourself out, but you better not be whining if someone expresses themselves by calling it out.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Arouet

Serdan · April 4, 2015

Have you read his posts? He *knew* it was offensive!

Why do you keep defending him?

Any opinion will be offensive to someone. Some people think LBGT-lifestyles are offensive, some people find drinking alcohol is offensive.

I hope you don't want to reitroduce prohibition or forbid/censor LBGT.

I hope you don't want to selectively censor everything you don't like/approve of, and cry "Censorship!" only on issues you do like.

One can limit freedom of speech regarding hate-speech, like #killallmen, #killalllesbians, #killallhumanslargerthan2mcausetheyaretoofrigginbig

but thats a slippery slope...

Context. It's a thing.

Kveldulf · April 4, 2015

If SJWs had that power, trust me, wizards would be a lot more powerful.

Heh, I could see it now - Wizard spells called: Entitlement, Repressive Freedom, Firedorning.....

Firedorn · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Knock yourself out, but you better not be whining if someone expresses themselves by calling it out.

Nope, never would. I don't mind people expressing themselves. Asking for censorship is something different.

Longknife · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

Listen to yourself dude.

#1 is essentially "they did not censor enough." Weren't you JUST throwing a fit there was censorship at all?

#2 Sawyer gave attention to a different party entirely. Sawyer never directly responded to anything the genodice advocate said.

Envy · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Knock yourself out, but you better not be whining if someone expresses themselves by calling it out.

Calling it out is quite different from attempting to extinguish it. It's fine to disagree with questionable content but to call for it to be cut out... well, that speaks of great immaturity.

Badmojo · April 4, 2015

So, this has shown Obsidian as pretty weak, rolling over like it did for the first wacko with a complaint. Will they keep doing it with the future complaints that will be coming?

Vryheid · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Oh, I don't know, maybe that you abused your Kickstarter reward to politicize a video game? Maybe the fact that you instigated this whole social media drama in the first place? If you want a "platform to write controversial crap" so badly, try a blog. a subreddit or a Youtube channel- a video game you did not create is NOT your "platform" to propagandize anything.

themanclaw · April 4, 2015

Maybe I just missed it in this thread, but something I don't see having been brought up the fact that the update claims that every single other backer content addages had been thoroughly vetted. Every. Single. One... BUT this one particular memorial. Call me a tinfoil hatter, but that seems slightly implausible to me.

Moirnelithe · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

It seems to me that Obsidian still holds value with you or you would have let it go already...

Arouet · April 4, 2015

If SJWs had that power, trust me, wizards would be a lot more powerful.

Heh, I could see it now - Wizard spells called: Entitlement, Repressive Freedom, Firedorning.....

Nah we'd bring back the hardcore Contigency **** from BG2.

Arouet · April 4, 2015

Firedorn knew it was offensive. He expected it to be rejected. He obviously did not intend it as just a harmless jest.

Why the hell are you so invested in making it seem like he is without fault?

I knew it was offensive. It was meant as a joke, you know...an offensive one. What fault is there in expressing myself with something controversial?

Knock yourself out, but you better not be whining if someone expresses themselves by calling it out.

Calling it out is quite different from attempting to extinguish it. It's fine to disagree with questionable content but to call for it to be cut out... well, that speaks of great immaturity.

So you're ok with speech you disagree with so long as it's impotent. Persuasion = censorship. Of course. Of course.

mindswayer · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

M8, come on. I HIGHLY doubt the developers working on the bugs were the ones handling this ****storm.

Luj1 · April 4, 2015

No. No "but"s. He was dishonest with paying customers, potential customers and funders. Period.

I never accused Firedorn of lying, only Obsidian.

Obsidian's response in that letter was nothing but a **** you to the above and emboldenment to the kill all men crowd (as can be seen with how Eric bragged about it on Twitter and immediantly started thinking about how if everyone were so gullable he'd be throwing men in concnertation camps already)

Yes, Feargus was probably a tad dishonest with you, but:

We don't actually know what "vetting" entails.

Please..... the story that this one backer somehow escaped vetting is a lie to cover this ruse. They clearly were pressured by the LGTB lobby to change this text.

Im telling you..... all the developers laughed when they first read this text.... NONE found it offensive.... its why it was in the game

Edited April 4, 2015 by Luj1

deuxhero · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

Listen to yourself dude.

#1 is essentially "they did not censor enough." Weren't you JUST throwing a fit there was censorship at all?

#2 Sawyer gave attention to a different party entirely. Sawyer never directly responded to anything the genodice advocate said.

No, it's "they didn't even bother to censor consistently".

Eric and Cheong both advocate genocide and those are the only two people Sawyer @ed. Either way he listened to one.

Shargrath · April 4, 2015

Hello,

I was one of the people who had anxiously awaited the release of Pillars of Eternity and pre-purchased the game in anticipation for it's release. However, I now, greatly regret this decision due to a recent change the developer made to the game.

For those not familiar with the issue, Obsidian has recently decided to censor a piece of fan written text in the game, caving in to pressure from a loud minority.

http://kotaku.com/pillars-of-eternity-fan-text-changed-after-player-compl-1695608446

This is the article that explains what happened.

If Obsidian had changed this before the game was released, I would have never purchased it.

I have played the game for about 30 minutes, but I have absolutely no desire to come back to it after Obsidian has made it clear that they do not support free speech or fan made input and cave in to special interests.

I find this practice extremely unethical, and would like to formally request a refund, as the game product which I had purchased, has been significantly altered from the time that I purchased it.

Thank You.

Arouet · April 4, 2015

One way or another, Obsidian has lost value with me. How could I ever defend them from their reputation as a buggy developer when, even if they were 100% truthful

1: They had super sloppy vetting process (I'd really like to see the guidelines it went by released publicly)

2: A genocide advocat on Twitter gets more attention than the many remaining critical bugs

Listen to yourself dude.

#1 is essentially "they did not censor enough." Weren't you JUST throwing a fit there was censorship at all?

#2 Sawyer gave attention to a different party entirely. Sawyer never directly responded to anything the genodice advocate said.

No, it's "they didn't even bother to censor consistently".

Eric and Cheong both advocate genocide and those are the only two people Sawyer @ed. Either way he listened to one.

Eric's not even her deadname. You are fooling noone. Try KiA, they'd upvote your **** to the ceiling.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Arouet

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