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For folks who have read Dance of Dragons. Who wrote the letter to Jon at the end? I thought it was Ramsay Snow. Now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts?

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I love Game of Thrones. It's the only TV series that manages to be 10 times better than the book it was based on... (seriously, the book's pacing is just too slowwwww)

Your opinion is objectively false.

For folks who have read Dance of Dragons. Who wrote the letter to Jon at the end? I thought it was Ramsay Snow. Now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts?

Unless there's some fan theory I'm unaware of, it was Ramsay.
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For folks who have read Dance of Dragons. Who wrote the letter to Jon at the end? I thought it was Ramsay Snow. Now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts?

 

There's a few different theories on the subject. The place to go to read and discuss them is here.

 

 

 

It's now been a couple of years since I've read the books, so some of the finer details are starting to fade from my memory (really and truly, damn you GRRM for avoiding finishing the series as long as you have), so I forget at the moment exactly why I think this, but my inclination was that it was not Ramsey who wrote the letter. I never reached 100% on that inclination though as I have some other plot elements that haven't yet made it definitively into print, so it might be Ramsey after all. In other words, I'd wager a small amount that it is not Ramsey, I'd wager a lot more on who Jon's parents are, that Stannis is not who Melisandre thinks he is, what Melisandre actually is, and that Daenerys is not the prophesied leader Aemon thinks she is. ;)

 

 

Edited by Valsuelm
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Unless there's some fan theory I'm unaware of, it was Ramsay.

 

 

I thought that too but 1) How would Ramsay know Mance was executed? 2)Ramsay didn't behead prisoners, he flayed them. 3) Why would anyone from south of the wall refer to the NW as crows? 

 

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

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Another thing, if Stannis was really dead the only person at the Wall who matters is Shireen. Selese has no value since her family is in Stannis's camp. Val is of no use to anyone, nor is Mance's son (even though it isn't even his son) or Melisandre. And aside from Selese & Shireen how would the Boltons know anything about any of them? But whoever wrote the letter asked for all of them. Whoever sent that letter had been at the Wall recently and had an interest in provoking Jon.

Edited by Guard Dog

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=difPkqg1lO8

 

IMO the best scene in the series ;)

 

I really hate the trope of "dangerous indians", when in history organized, well-equipped (not only with weapons, but also horses and so on) forces have always inflicted embarrassing defeats on rabble. During the entire series the Wildlings have been hyped as being so dangerous, when they have no horses, no resources or logistics and no technology. How they would ever be able to be a serious threat to the southern areas is beyond me. So this scene pretty much confirms that the threat is merely psychological.

 

BTW, in spite of reading humongous amounts in general, I actually haven't read any GRRM.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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Another thing, if Stannis was really dead the only person at the Wall who matters is Shireen. Selese has no value since her family is in Stannis's camp. Val is of no use to anyone, nor is Mance's son (even though it isn't even his son) or Melisandre. And aside from Selese & Shireen how would the Boltons know anything about any of them? But whoever wrote the letter asked for all of them. Whoever sent that letter had been at the Wall recently and had an interest in provoking Jon.

 

 

You realize you're putting a whole bunch of spoilers out there for a lot people right? Had I not read the books I'd be hating you right now. ;)

 

Very big spoilers for anyone who has not read A Dance with Dragons below:

 

 

Found and watched this. Which reminded me of some of the reasons I didn't think it was Ramsey.

 

https://youtu.be/jwcuRwod0Xg?list=PLCsx_OFEYH6v1vu8roFM3MzuU6TT84SpI

 

I'm not 100% convinced that it's Mance as the guy in the video says, as I remember also having the impression it might be Theon or Stannis, but the guy makes a very good case for Mance being the author.

 

I'd have to reread the book to offer more on this. Something I'm not going to do anytime soon, if ever. Certainly not until the last book's publication is on the horizon.

 

 

 

Edited by Valsuelm
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I don't think that was too much in the way of spoilers. All I gave away is Jon got a letter and who's not dead... yet. Now a REAL spoiler would be what happened after the letter. But I won't give that one up.

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IMO the best scene in the series ;)

 

I really hate the trope of "dangerous indians", when in history organized, well-equipped (not only with weapons, but also horses and so on) forces have always inflicted embarrassing defeats on rabble. During the entire series the Wildlings have been hyped as being so dangerous, when they have no horses, no resources or logistics and no technology. How they would ever be able to be a serious threat to the southern areas is beyond me. So this scene pretty much confirms that the threat is merely psychological.

 

BTW, in spite of reading humongous amounts in general, I actually haven't read any GRRM.

You really underestimate the power of guerrilla warfare, while your point still stands the could cripple the Southern Lands economically (Although I doubt they had the presence of mind to stick to guerrilla tactics)

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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IMO the best scene in the series ;)

 

I really hate the trope of "dangerous indians", when in history organized, well-equipped (not only with weapons, but also horses and so on) forces have always inflicted embarrassing defeats on rabble. During the entire series the Wildlings have been hyped as being so dangerous, when they have no horses, no resources or logistics and no technology. How they would ever be able to be a serious threat to the southern areas is beyond me. So this scene pretty much confirms that the threat is merely psychological.

 

BTW, in spite of reading humongous amounts in general, I actually haven't read any GRRM.

You really underestimate the power of guerrilla warfare, while your point still stands the could cripple the Southern Lands economically (Although I doubt they had the presence of mind to stick to guerrilla tactics)

 

Even if I did, you can only really wage war effectively in that fashion if you are on your own land where you know where to find food and how to get from A to B. Especially if you have the support of local populace whom the invaders do not want to massacre. At worst, the Wildlings would be a threat to the northernmost lords.

 

Anyways, people who have the population density of hunter/gatherers in a frozen wasteland won't be a realistic threat to people who have the farming technology of medieval Europe simply from a numerical point of view. IMO something which would change this would be if the Wildlings had efficient fishing technology, and were herding lots of reindeer and the like on land. Still they would need a much larger area of land to accumulate the kind of numbers that would make them a military threat.

"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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IMO the best scene in the series ;)

 

I really hate the trope of "dangerous indians", when in history organized, well-equipped (not only with weapons, but also horses and so on) forces have always inflicted embarrassing defeats on rabble. During the entire series the Wildlings have been hyped as being so dangerous, when they have no horses, no resources or logistics and no technology. How they would ever be able to be a serious threat to the southern areas is beyond me. So this scene pretty much confirms that the threat is merely psychological.

 

BTW, in spite of reading humongous amounts in general, I actually haven't read any GRRM.

You really underestimate the power of guerrilla warfare, while your point still stands the could cripple the Southern Lands economically (Although I doubt they had the presence of mind to stick to guerrilla tactics)

 

 

Well... not only can guerrilla warfare be successful, there's a number of fairly famous incidents in history where the 'rabble' soundly defeated what some considered the better organized, better equipped army. The folks that fought the war that founded the nation I live in were considered rabble by many, as were the Finnish in the Winter War, the Zulus, various Native American tribes that fought quite successfully against the U.S., Mexicans, et al for awhile, the Huns, Germans, and Barbarians of Roman times, and so on.

 

 

[Note: possible minor spoilers if you haven't read the book below, but I only reference things that are revealed in the books up until the point of the Battle for Castle Black.]

 

 

The situation of the Wildlings was somewhat simplified for the show. I honestly don't recall all the details of the battle where Stannis captured Mance other than that the element of surprise was crucial, Mance's army was already quite weary from fierce battle with the crows, and in the book it was not the complete rout that the TV show portrays it as (in general the TV show really glosses over some awesomely described battles, more than a couple of times; the only battle I think the show did a fair amount of justice to was the battle for King's Landing in season 2). The end result is the same though: Mance surrenders.

 

Here's a few factors that are pertinent to the Wildlings being far more than just rabble. Had Mance been at full strength when Stannis arrived and known he was coming the outcome very well might have been much different.

 

1. There's a poopton of them.

2. They aren't looking to conquer really, they're looking to get beyond the wall, settle, and use the Wall as a shield against the Others (what it was meant for). Mance isn't an idiot. On the contrary he's very intelligent, insightful, and pragmatic. He's from south of the wall, he used to be a crow. He knows what he's leading and what he needs to do. Direct conflict with well organized southern armies was something he was looking to avoid if possible.

3. The Wildlings are fleeing the Others. They have no choice but to assault the Wall. it's get south of the wall and try and make a life there or remain north for certain very unpleasant death for them.

4. They've got giants, mammoths, and other allies that aren't quite human that trump your average human. In the book these forces actually do a good amount of damage to Stannis's troops.

5. Mance knows that the crows are badly outnumbered. He knows Castle Black's defenses. He knows all of the Wall's defenses.

6. The bulk of the King of the North's army is far to the south and cannot defend the Wall. And in short, no one is coming to the defense of the Wall. If Stannis didn't show up, the Wildlings would have taken the Wall and pretty much had their way with the North, for quite some time. If not indefinitely as the forces of the south are otherwise occupied.

7. Melisandre kills Varamyr's eagle, which Mance was relying on as his eyes. This is something completely unexpected (there's no indication the Wildlings are familiar with Melisandre's kind of magic, but even if they are they have no reason to believe that the crows or anyone fighting for the Seven Kingdoms has access to it), something almost no one else could do, and crucial for securing Stannis that element of surprise. This probably more than anything else lead to victory for Stannis.

8. Mance has spies south of the Wall, and he knows quite a lot of what's going on there. He even spied south of the wall himself prior to the Wildling's march on the wall.

9. While there's some rabble within the Wildling's army, they are not quite as unorganized as portrayed in the show. In the books it's made fairly clear that Mance feigns more disorganization than the Wildlings really have to Jon and the crows. Mance has a number of lieutenants that are competent and loyal to the cause if not to him. Some of which are not portrayed much if at all in the show.

 

Anyways. In short, the Wildlings were not just rabble. Had they met Stannis on the field fresh and unsurprised evidence in the book suggests they very well may have kicked his ass right back out of the north. Remember too, that the Wildlings are in a fight or die position, most of them realize this, which a primary reason why they joined Mance to begin with. Stannis is leading an army of mostly mercenaries, fighting in lands they do not know against a foe that knows those lands. Loyal to the coin they are paid. In general I'll put my money on the man who is fighting for his and his family's life over the man who is fighting for some coin, just about any day.

Edited by Valsuelm
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  • 2 weeks later...

Once again, Stannis shows how much of a weak muppet he is. Jon Snow > Stannis.

 

And, what a rip off for us Sansa/Littlefinger fans. L0L Not even 5 minutes.  LAME

 

P.S. Too much male ass not enough female b00bs. <>

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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I'm curious to see if there is going to be some glamour involved.

 

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