Understanding the stronghold

[Rumpelstilskin]

I think tying taxes to turns and hirelings payments to real days was actually a pretty good idea, even if it's somewhat unrealistic. It prevents you from just resting and accumulating money. Yes, money is generally not a problem in PoE, but it doesn't mean they should have completely dropped the ball on it and left obvious exploits in. That said, I have a strong impression that hirelings take way more than advertised. Paydays seem to be real 24h, but my 3 10cp hirelings always cost me 150cp. I haven't actually timed it (which I should do, it's really not that hard), but it definitely happened more often than once in 5 24h days. Unless their trade union pushed a law that made 'day' mean just an 8 hour shift.

[Psychevore]

Days aren't 24 hours in PoE though

[Crucis]

How do you get these rewards? I send party members out and it says I get these rewards but I've never once found anything in my inventory or stash.

 

I think that any money rewards are dump directly into your coin purse.  And any items gained are put in a treasure chest that's in a room to the right of the talking "Steward" throne.  FYI though, don't be expecting any good items.  At least on my first run, I found nothing but scrolls or potions, in addition to the hordes of various special plants, herbs, and what not.  A little underwhelming, to be honest.  When you send one of your non-arty member companions out on a SH "grand adventure", you'd think that they'd come back with something more substantial than a mere potion of minor healing.

[Crucis]

 

 

I'm just giving my feedback, who said anything about Obsidian murdering my family?

 

If anyone's being dramatic its you...

 

Oh really? Let's look at this again, shall we.

 

 

 

I am really disappointed with the Stronghold.

 

1) The bonuses from resting can't be combined, despite the flavour text implying the opposite. So basically they are a complete waste of time because you might as well dump 200g into resting at an Inn to get a much better bonus.

 

2) Vast majority of the shopkeepers offer absolutely nothing of worth. Complete waste of money.

 

3) Brighthollow is just a pain in the ass to get to, I have to go through 2-3 loading screens just to rest there, then go through another 2-3 loading screens to get back to the World Map.. are you ****ting me? Did a blind, lobotomized monkey design this feature?

 

4) Hirelings seem like a waste of time; they die too easily in the special encounters and mostly cost too much to just have lying around for the purposes of increasing prestige/security. If they at least got rezzed after fights then it wouldn't be so bad.

 

5) Nobody interesting moves into your Stronghold. The game needs a Deckard Cain-type character (or three) who you actually want to visit and talk to, to make the place seem more alive. It's just a really uninspiring place to visit, and as I've already stated the gameplay benefits are very limited.

 

Still better than the BG2 Strongholds, but at least they had semi-interesting quests tied to them. Really I'm only dumping gold into this place for the sake of completing it. I really couldn't care less about the place aside from that.

I'd say that the above comments in red are overly dramatic, wiith the comment about a blind, lobotomized monkey being ridiculously so.

 

Regarding point #1, yes, I agree that it's lame that the bonuses aren't better compared to what you can get at some inns. Agree 100%. That said, earlier in the game, those meager bonuses aren't so bad when you may not want to spend any more than necessary to rest. Later on when you're rolling in money (mostly because you've completely upgraded the stronghold, or at least decided to not sink any more into it), 200cp for a room that gives you a number of +2 bonuses starts looking like chump change. And it does seem a little silly that once you've fully upgraded your stronghold that somehow an inn can provide better, more restful, more bonus worthy accomodations than your own home. But that still doesn't qualify as a "complete waste of time"!!!

 

 

As for point #2, there are only 4 merchants in the stronghold, so there can hardly be anything vast about them in the first place. And while their inventories ae hardly inspiring, that doesn't qualify as "offering nothing of worth". "Exceptional" grade weapons are hardly worthless. Bland and uninteresting? Yeah, I'd agree with that. But worthless? Not at all.

 

At least when you mentioned the hirelings in point #4 you said that they SEEM like a waste of time, which is a reasonably fair way of stating whether true or not.

 

Also in point #5, I'm not sure that I'd say that "nobody interesting" shows up at the stronghold. I think that some of the characters that do visit might be very interesting, if, as you later suggest, you could actually talk to them.

 

 

In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen. If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

 

Stop derailing the conversation Crucis, a thing you tend to do in many threads you participate.

 

 

Then stop with all the ridiculous hyperbole.  Intelligent, productive conversations are not truly possible when those who claim to be participating contribute nothing but useless immature hyperbole.  If anything, I'm trying to get the conversations BACK on the rails by trying to get people to talk like intelligent adults, rather than immature drama queens.

 

[TT1]

Things I'd like to see in the stronghold:

 

- Customization: the stronghold is in fact a very clean and happy place after restored. does not make much sense if I played a character that was cruel and aggressive most of the time. maybe the game could take advantage of this and include aesthetic options, like a moat, instruments of torture, chains, heads in a spike ... idk ... go crazy! We need more customization optionsl

 

- NPCs backers: perhaps the game should put some of the NPCs backer here, rather than put them in the cities.

 

- The stronghold looks like a fiefdom, right? then make the place shine with life. farms, farmers, soldiers, caravans, travelers, gypsies ... what about ordinary people bringing issues and making the player to make a moral decision through the dialogues? example: farmer 1 exceeded the limit of farmer 2 land, but the farmer 1 produces more food, while the farmer 2 has unused land. Please, meke me feel relevant to the world and to my lands.

 

- what about build elements that reflect your choice of class? you're a wizard? build a tower. You are a priest? would be nice to build a cathedral dedicated to your God? and so on ... What about build and expand the endless paths? YES, let me build my dungeon, after beating it.

[mudd1]

Things I'd like to see in the stronghold:

 

- Customization: the stronghold is in fact a very clean and happy place after restored. does not make much sense if I played a character that was cruel and aggressive most of the time. maybe the game could take advantage of this and include aesthetic options, like a moat, instruments of torture, chains, heads in a spike ... idk ... go crazy! We need more customization optionsl

 

- what about build elements that reflect your choice of class? you're a wizard? build a tower. You are a priest? would be nice to build a cathedral dedicated to your God? and so on ... What about build and expand the endless paths? YES, let me build my dungeon, after beating it.

 

I think after listening to the commentary you will realize that those things are just not feasible with reasonable resources for such nice-to-haves.

[TT1]

 

 

Things I'd like to see in the stronghold:

 

- Customization: the stronghold is in fact a very clean and happy place after restored. does not make much sense if I played a character that was cruel and aggressive most of the time. maybe the game could take advantage of this and include aesthetic options, like a moat, instruments of torture, chains, heads in a spike ... idk ... go crazy! We need more customization optionsl

 

- what about build elements that reflect your choice of class? you're a wizard? build a tower. You are a priest? would be nice to build a cathedral dedicated to your God? and so on ... What about build and expand the endless paths? YES, let me build my dungeon, after beating it.

I think after listening to the commentary you will realize that those things are just not feasible with reasonable resources for such nice-to-haves.

Dont crush my dreams

[mudd1]

Dont crush my dreams

 

 

makeshorriblecrunshingnoise

[RojayNola]

I kind of like the stronghold. Just rebuilding it is nice because it gives it a sense of ownership. It feels good going back to a home base and it provides extra encounter and extra loot. Defending the base was pretty cool and one of the sellswords there was a good challenge. The bounties are great too.

That's my take as well. I do wish there was some sign of life running around the place apart from the shopkeepers, but that's a pretty small nit to pick. 

 

I recognize some of the most frequent complaints have merit - particularly how many loading screens you go through to rest, and the limited value to doing so as compared to inns - but I'd wager that's something they'll change in the expansion/sequel. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by RojayNola

[Schyzm]

I understand the stronghold perfectly, its where I dump thousands of gold every game to not much noticeable effect and rarely visit.

[Rumpelstilskin]

What do watchers do?

Watchers Peek.

[Nykidemus]

Is there anything at all mechanically that you can get from the first floor of Brighthollow? The lab and the fountain are pretty, and I guess they give you a prestiege bonus, but is that it?

[TT1]

Is there anything at all mechanically that you can get from the first floor of Brighthollow? The lab and the fountain are pretty, and I guess they give you a prestiege bonus, but is that it?

 

 

Update by Tim Cain, Senior Programmer and Designer

 

Crafting Basics

Crafting is the skill that you use to make equippable items like armor and weapons, and consumable items like potions and food. To begin crafting, you must find an appropriate crafting location.

• Forges – these blacksmithing locations can be used to make all of the equippable gear. From helmets to armor to boots, if you can wear it, then you can make it here.
• Labs – these alchemical tables are used to make any enchantments, as well as all alchemical consumables like potions, scrolls or figurines (which let you summon a creature that will fight for you). If you want to improve your gear or brew a potion, you need to find one of these labs.
• Hearths – these cooking spots are used to make food and drink that can give you long-term benefits when you ingest them. Many rest areas will have hearths, so crafting of this sort can often be done “in the field”.

When you use the central object at these locations, such as the anvil at the forge, you will enter a crafting interface that displays all of your forge recipes, broken down into categories such as armor, weapons, boots, helmets, rings, etc. You pick a category and can see all of the recipes you know for that category. Each recipe has a set of ingredients needed to make its item (or items, as some recipes will make batches of items). Some recipes will have additional prerequisites, including requiring you or a companion to have a certain talent or ability or even skill at an appropriate level. Higher level recipes have more prerequisites and need rarer ingredients.

 

You may be wondering where you get recipes. You get a few automatically when you level up your crafting skill, and you can also buy them from vendors. Sometimes you will find recipes in the world, as loot on creatures or as rewards for finishing quests. There will be a lot of recipes in Project Eternity for you to find, so make sure you explore every nook and cranny of this world, especially the crannies.

 

Crafting doesn’t take any time. If you have everything the recipe needs and are at the appropriate crafting location, then you can make the item instantly. Usually the ingredients are used up, but sometimes they are reusable. And for recipes like enchantments, the main ingredient is not used up but is instead improved by the addition of a new bonus. For example, you might have a sword with high accuracy and a Flaming Sword recipe that adds fire damage to any sword. If you use that sword with that recipe, you will have the same sword with a high accuracy bonus but also with additional fire damage! Win win!

 

Crafting can also be used to repair items, but first we should talk about item durability in Project Eternity.

 

 

But... well... they never implemented it. So, yeah, there is no use for any of it in brighthollow.

[Omnicron]

soooo.. the chapel sells 2-4 scrolls which one can easily craft? Seems really dumb, was hoping for some unique ones at least which you cannot craft. 

 

I a seriously looking for a rite of walking shadows scroll, but it only seems to exist as random loot? 

[abaris]

soooo.. the chapel sells 2-4 scrolls which one can easily craft? Seems really dumb, was hoping for some unique ones at least which you cannot craft. 

 

I a seriously looking for a rite of walking shadows scroll, but it only seems to exist as random loot? 

 

The stores generally are a disappointment. The only thing they're good for is to get rid of some junk loot quickly. 

 

But overall I've got no problem with the stronghold design. Especially after patch 1.05, which no longer requires you to sit out 4 map transitions in and out of Brighthollow to get a decent rest.

[mystang89]

 

 

soooo.. the chapel sells 2-4 scrolls which one can easily craft? Seems really dumb, was hoping for some unique ones at least which you cannot craft.

 

I a seriously looking for a rite of walking shadows scroll, but it only seems to exist as random loot?

The stores generally are a disappointment. The only thing they're good for is to get rid of some junk loot quickly.

 

But overall I've got no problem with the stronghold design. Especially after patch 1.05, which no longer requires you to sit out 4 map transitions in and out of Brighthollow to get a decent rest.

Even if patch 1.05 did nothing else it would have been worth it just for that change!

[TT1]

I want to reproduce a comment I saw on TTON forum, about the stronghold. There are many interesting details that made me think hard about how much could be improved in CAEd Nua. Especially on items 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3

 

PoE, despite other parts, good or bad, had a sin of making stronghold - useful, but empty and unimpressive. IMO, of course. But there's was distinct feeling of "I should move it faster past this location" for me. Consider everything I wrote below, as nitpicking, maybe too harsh for some of you, but not in a way "And because of that - PoE sucks". Not at all, it's just, what I think, wasn't that satisfying and might've been done better. But I don't know their focus, what they had in terms of priorities, funds, man-power and time on this.

 

1.1. I thought that was Raedrick's one, we'll have, at first. It is more complex and interesting, has platforms, three different levels outside and three different levels inside (there's a dungeons), lord's room, a tale, how you heroically got it. 

1.2. Instead we got Caed Nua, which has it's pluses, but is not that great. It's was decent, but Raedrick's was great and player shouldn't compare one thing part of the game to another and ask himself "Why didn't we got this?". Keep in mind, that everything below is concerned of Caed Nua, I have no idea, how to substitute one with another, just pointning, that it would've been great in my opinion.

1.3. Caed Nua were given to a player too easy and too quick. It weren't earned, we weren't took it over themselves, as part of interesting plot. One conversation with former holder is not enough to feel it, apparently.

 

2.1. Stronghold mechanics was made, but it had no intertwined connections neither to the main plot nor secondary quests. And while Stronghold has Endless Paths, it isn't tied to them directly. What you make with Stronghold stays in Stronghold.

 

2.2.1. I don't have anything against whole magical telepathic thing, in general. It was supposed to make player's life easier, after all, and it did. But ithink, it would be more engaging, if there was a few quests to make initial rebuild and, take a few walks back and forth, recruit at least few NPCs to inhabit it. Reawekened magical throne, after few quests might've gave us a spare of not returning every time and send our orders to living senechal. Pacing here is a key.

2.2.2. Stronghold would've won from taking these simplifications further, though. If, there is nothing to ask, it was possibly convenient to make orders from merchants from a Stronghold interface. 

2.2.3. Add an option to rest without going to second floor of Brackenbury, each time!  

2.2.3. Make manual resolve of attack a travel option, while you aren't indoors or a part of major plot (Like Defiance Bay after *SPOILER*).

2.2.4. A quest loot and herbs might go directly into the stash. Special subspace, few clicks and it's in the stash with other stuff. 

2.2.5. Et cetera. Crucial here is part, that automatization system, if you already have it should help you to defeat repetitiveness and keep good, useful parts available, while other things is wearing out.

 

2.3. There is a reason, why I didn't liked to traverse Caed Nua after some moment. Repetitiveness without much reward. Do you know, what might make it better. Bunch of NPCs. Alive. With various levels of fleshing out. Probably, Dragon Age 3 spoiled me as Devil himself, but there is so much to learn from Skyhold and Heaven, even if you despise that game.

 

2.3.1. A living senechal to counter niceness and idealistism of our steward. I mean, someone, who can check workers job, have a hands, body and image. Some mini-story between mundane senechal and magical senechal. Or maybe, just executive, Anything. Details do matter.

2.3.2. Few guards, even without badass army and barracks to great you once in a while and warn you about special guests.

2.3.3. Random guests, merchants and guards is soulless husks. Almost any merchant everywhere has at least something memorable abou themselves, whether is was information or quest... But it made them at least somewhat special. In Stronghold... not. For example, herbs merchant, who asks to fetch dragon eggs. Why couldn't we recruit her? What's a point standing in a far, far village all the time, if we can effectively make a Stronghold, that we visit again and again. It's about making connections with both protagonist and player.

2.3.4. Other cute little details. Like, who's gardener? Do we have a servants? Do they have a story about their previous life or kids? Who's in charge of Black Meabow? Who cooks? Who hosts a traveler?

2.3.5. Damn, you might've put some of that backer's strangers, who had nothing, aside from soul story, who might've randomly stay here each time (aside from their original placing). 

2.3.6. Overall, in more dense and short game, than AAA-title, having a massive Stronghold with high levels of abstractness is not a best approach.  

 

2.3. Dashboard (news feed, log, whatever). You know missed opportunity, when you see it. It's a great tool of storytelling, actually. You don't need to put as much effort, as in NPCs to make a place more alive, coilorful... Couple of servants got married. Son of saved peasant came to become a guard. A holiday is about to celebrated. Donate? (y/n). A holiday celebration story. Some reccuring story about specific NPCs, you might meat closer to the end of the game, or never at all. Quest or piece of loot somewhere, you might fishing out of a rumor. Something bad. Something funny. Something tragic. Something romantic. Something, that makes you feel anything about damn mount of pixels on a screen. Think about it.

 

2.4. Quests and random events once more. I don't mind trashing through mobs in Endless Paths. I don't mind EP of CN has more battles, than a story. But at least, it had a story. I don't mind sending unused party members to their own adventure, though war table missions in DAI was better decorated, than this (see previous paragraph). I don't mind random merchants and guests, but why are they... dull? Head hunter missions is fun, but it's not a quests. Bunch of strange guys, who mobbed you on a road is not a quest. Like, there is no point of prison, if it has use only for... four characters? Hm... The way it was in a game, wasn't a best one. And, as I said. It would be fun, if having done some quests might've influence othar parts of a game, making it easier and more interesting. Secondary quests, main storyline quests, [stronghold] or [%Specific Building%] dialogue options as part of recruiting, intimidation or diplomacy. Major spoilers (2-3 Chapter) ahead:

[i am the Watcher Lord of Caed Nua(100% Recostruction)] "You all know me well. This man was posessed and killed a Duke against his will. Stop this madness, immediately!"

.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post: https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?p=150814#p150814

 

 

Edited May 21, 2015 by TT1

[TT1]

Actually, I really think Obsidian should delete Caed Nua from the game and give us Raedric Hold, instead. Yes, let me be the Gilded Vale leader. Just make Od Nua underneath Raedric Hold and everything will be fine.

 

Ps: why in Hell Caed Nua looks like an old, abandoned factory?

Edited June 5, 2015 by TT1

[Certus]

Judging by a comment from obsidian in regards to hoping the stronghold will be more integral, I think the next expansion will see a lot of improvement. Just a gut feeling.

 

I think there will be a revamp to crafting too. They didn't really deliver on the kick starter promises and there is a heap of potential to improve these areas. Sort of ties in nicely with the crafting areas already present in the stronghold also.

 

I would like the stronghold to have more bustle in general. Just people walking around would be good. Being able to craft UNIQUE weapons there would be icing on cake for me

[abaris]

Actually, I really think Obsidian should delete Caed Nua from the game and give us Raedric Hold, instead. Yes, let me be the Gilded Vale leader. Just make Od Nua underneath Raedric Hold and everything will be fine.

 

Ps: why in Hell Caed Nua looks like an old, abandoned factory?

 

That would mean getting rid of the option to keep Raedric in power. But I agree with you on the looks. They really aren't very appealing. They could have taken the Raedric design for Caed Nua. Sadly, the commentary doesn't say anything about the reasons why they designed it the way it is, only about the difficulties of working with the design.

[mudd1]

But I agree with you on the looks. They really aren't very appealing. They could have taken the Raedric design for Caed Nua. Sadly, the commentary doesn't say anything about the reasons why they designed it the way it is, only about the difficulties of working with the design.

 

 

It's not like this hadn't been anticipated. This post and the quite interesting discussion that followed it raised a red flag to everyone that very little thought had gone into the design of the stronghold: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64555-update-66-double-whammy/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1394318

[abaris]

It's not like this hadn't been anticipated. This post and the quite interesting discussion that followed it raised a red flag to everyone that very little thought had gone into the design of the stronghold: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64555-update-66-double-whammy/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1394318

 

 

This http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64555-update-66-double-whammy/?p=1394940 would have looked so much better, although I still consider the main keep too large in that image.

 

In fact, my main problem is with the keep. Raedric's Hold looks believable, given the overall setting of the game. But Caed Nua really looks like a rather large downtroden factory from the late 1800.

 

But ultimately it's a waste to cry over spilled milk. They can't change it for this game, since it would involve to much work for a simple update. But I do hope, if they continue the series, that they do listen to fan suggestions.

Edited June 6, 2015 by abaris

[Mygaffer]

I was hoping they would fix the Stronghold (yes, it needs design fixing) with the White March, who knows, maybe they will with the second part although I doubt it. We'll just have to hope it gets some major overhauls in PoE 2.