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Understanding the stronghold

Stronghold Hirelings

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#1
termokanden

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?


Edited by termokanden, 31 March 2015 - 08:13 AM.

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#2
Voss

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

 

You aren't really missing much, though the adventures make a difference (though often all I get is potions.  Or even a potion).  But you get experience on a chump left behind.

 

The curio shop and the garden give ingredients, which is useful.  The dungeon could be useful, but I've only had a chance to take a prisoner twice: once before it was complete, and one was a psycho floating psychic spider-illithid.  Taking that prisoner and leaving it alone in my stronghold just seemed like a bad idea.  So I squashed it.

 

The bounties give good rewards, however.  So the warden house is definitely worth it.

 

But yes, the taxes are... wonky, and don't seem to be related to security much at all.  I've gotten more tax out of early tax runs when security was non-exsistant than when my security is around 30.  To the point that I'm not sure it is even related to security at all.  I haven't had any attacks in a long time, however (just one, a couple days after I took over). 

 

The interface is also pretty buggy.  Days are listed out of order under the 'turns' (which needs to be explained somewhere that isn't a random loading screen hint (I didn't get it until the very end of chapter 1), sometimes they same day (with 'nothing happens') pops up twice in a turn, and the hireling pay thing just seems completely out of whack. 


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#3
termokanden

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Maybe security is only related to attacks and not bandits.

 

Last time I earned just shy of 500. Bandits took 400-something. Hirelings cost about 400 for the same period. Even without the bandits, my earnings are almost non-existent, and with hirelings I'm losing money. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

As for the adventures, I love the idea, but so far I've done two and I've gotten ONE adra gem total as a reward. Really?

 

It seems like the stronghold is quite perfectly designed except for the rewards being ridiculously poor. As you say, however, the bounties seem like a really nice idea and I look forward to doing them.


Edited by termokanden, 31 March 2015 - 08:32 AM.

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#4
mudd1

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Does anybody have the maths for those stronghold earnings? To be able to answer the question: assuming a given number of days per turn, what's the cutoff for hirelings to be cost-effective.

 

I can clear up one misunderstanding above though: the reported earnings seem to be the sum after subtracting the amount bandits took. Early on, bandits took more than I actually earned (and as for you, despite my security being higher than my prestige) so I started to panic. But I didn't notice actually losing money so I figured that it was just written in a weird way and explained in none at all.

 

All in all, I have to agree that mixing turns and days was a horrible idea. Owning land is supposed to be a reliable source of income, not a source of fear of losing my livelihood for taking too long in a dungeon. I'm thinking about firing my hirelings just because it's starting to ruin the game for me.


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#5
bootsnpots

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Moneys so easy in this game with the stash working like a free bag of holding and being able to take all everything. I was constantly losing 200 copper here and 400 copper there not really caring. The only reason i had the hirelings is because i didnt like to have to rebuild things and id boost my prestige as high as possible with them. The stronghold is not totally amazing, but it is an awesome feature. I usually just used mine as a sweet place to rest and I built the workshop early so i could always keep that mechanics bonus. (There are very few things in this world that bother me as much as a lock im not skilled enuf to pick)


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#6
Varana

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Also, the hirelings don't cost per day - that would be ridiculous. They cost the stated amount per pay cycle, which is either something in turns, or a longer amount of game time (I thought it's game time, but I'm not sure anymore). (And in between pay days they're listed as "unpaid", which is equally nonsense.)

With high prestige and security (I have both in the 40s now) you probably can earn back your hireling cost with taxes. Probably, as the share stolen by bandits seems to be highly random.
But in general, the rewards of the stronghold are negligible, except for the Curio Shop, Botanical Garden, and the bounties. The bounties give lots of XP and money, and the others can produce some decent crafting ingredients.
Look at it as the giant money sink that it is, and sink money into it if you're feeling generous. :)

#7
Naevius

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I don't think anything about it is cost effective, except the bounties, but it is an ok base of operations.



#8
mudd1

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Moneys so easy in this game with the stash working like a free bag of holding and being able to take all everything. I was constantly losing 200 copper here and 400 copper there not really caring. The only reason i had the hirelings is because i didnt like to have to rebuild things and id boost my prestige as high as possible with them. The stronghold is not totally amazing, but it is an awesome feature. I usually just used mine as a sweet place to rest and I built the workshop early so i could always keep that mechanics bonus. (There are very few things in this world that bother me as much as a lock im not skilled enuf to pick)

 

The consensus of this thread seemed to be that money is not abundant in PoE: http://forums.obsidi...iful-or-scarce/

 

Also, the hirelings don't cost per day - that would be ridiculous. They cost the stated amount per pay cycle, which is either something in turns, or a longer amount of game time (I thought it's game time, but I'm not sure anymore). (And in between pay days they're listed as "unpaid", which is equally nonsense.)

With high prestige and security (I have both in the 40s now) you probably can earn back your hireling cost with taxes. Probably, as the share stolen by bandits seems to be highly random.
But in general, the rewards of the stronghold are negligible, except for the Curio Shop, Botanical Garden, and the bounties. The bounties give lots of XP and money, and the others can produce some decent crafting ingredients.
Look at it as the giant money sink that it is, and sink money into it if you're feeling generous. :)

 

Well, it's definitely not turns as I had two pay days without any turns passing in between (ok, it might be a number of turns between 0 and 1 but ... yeah). Furthermore, the question is not if the taxes can pay the hirelings but if the additional taxes one gets from the hirelings are larger than their cost. I want to believe that there is some strategy here that isn't either "never hire anyone" nor "hire as many as you can." But without the devs giving us the formula used or somebody reverse engineering it (which would be a pain since even the relation between turns and quests seems to contain a random element!) I don't see how a player is supposed to figure this out.



#9
mudd1

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I don't think anything about it is cost effective, except the bounties, but it is an ok base of operations.

 

So what would be the point of hiring any hirelings then? Or rebuilding things that don't have a function beyond prestige/security and cosmetics?



#10
Venatio

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The Stronghold seems like a massive money sink but it does not seem to offer much for the thousands of cp I threw at it in my first playthrough. I stopped playing at Defiance Bay to restart my game, but the Stronghold needs to be fixed otherwise I will just go past it and leave it in ruins until I am good and ready to settle down. 

 

I was also miffed that I could not hire as many of each type of Hireling as I wanted. I was hoping to hire a cadre of Goldpact Knights, not a ragtag crew. Perhaps hire a set of Hirelings from a faction? Would certainly be more interesting. 

 

But yah, considering how shallow the Stronghold features are I hope that the devs can turn things around and optimize it at some point. At least get rid of the bugs.

 

Also, for anyone who has installed the Craft Hall - can we buy guns there? Like, a Blunderbuss for my Cipher? 


Edited by Venatio, 07 April 2015 - 06:33 PM.


#11
Voss

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Moneys so easy in this game with the stash working like a free bag of holding and being able to take all everything. I was constantly losing 200 copper here and 400 copper there not really caring. The only reason i had the hirelings is because i didnt like to have to rebuild things and id boost my prestige as high as possible with them. The stronghold is not totally amazing, but it is an awesome feature. I usually just used mine as a sweet place to rest and I built the workshop early so i could always keep that mechanics bonus. (There are very few things in this world that bother me as much as a lock im not skilled enuf to pick)

 

The consensus of this thread seemed to be that money is not abundant in PoE: http://forums.obsidi...iful-or-scarce/

There are seriously 4 posts in that thread, and 2 of the three responses don't even vaguely say that, going more for the opposite.  

 

personally, even wasting tons of cash on the useless stronghold, I had piles of money, and nothing worth spending it on.  Given the genre this isn't a shock, or something I particularly care about. 



#12
Awsumpossum

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By the time I was in act 3 I had over 100,000 gold and nothing to really buy.  At which point I upgraded every building in the stronghold, bought some crafting items and hired some "hirelings" for awhile.  I ended my upgrades at like 66,000 gold.  I mean, I get what you're saying, but I cannot imagine really having money issues unless you're buying tons of potions, scrolls, etc.


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#13
Eyonik

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For me it seems the Stronghold is mostly virtual. I mean I am there and I can see it but I can neither participate in the adventures (hello random quests) or see my visitors.

Currently I got a wanted criminal at my Stronghold reducing my security and prestige... I can pay her to leave or take one of my partymembers out to escort her. My party currently IS at the Stronghold... I mean I just need to go there and stomp over this criminal (and maybe get some loot). But no, I can not interact with visitors.



#14
Rosbjerg

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For me it seems the Stronghold is mostly virtual. I mean I am there and I can see it but I can neither participate in the adventures (hello random quests) or see my visitors.

Currently I got a wanted criminal at my Stronghold reducing my security and prestige... I can pay her to leave or take one of my partymembers out to escort her. My party currently IS at the Stronghold... I mean I just need to go there and stomp over this criminal (and maybe get some loot). But no, I can not interact with visitors.

 

Mine was in the treasury, so I could interact with her, she even thanked me for letting her stay.



#15
Eos

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It's there to grow Pilgrim's Crown for you. And I guess bounties and Endless Path. But mostly Pilgrim's Crown


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#16
drumther

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I ended up having something around 48 prestige (50+ with visitors) and 58 (60+ with visitors). Earning about 1k copper and 50~100 copper lost by bandits.

 

The warden gives you 3 rounds of four enemies to hunt down and a last round of 3 heads. However, I don't think the rewards are good enough. You get 2400 copper for each one + some fine/exceptional items to sell. The last guys you hunt, however, drop some decent stuff, but these fights can be really tough. If I had known this early on, I wouldn't even bother doing bounties at all :p

 

Prisoners are useless as far as I know. All you get from having prisoners is a slim chance of having someone in the future offer some gold for one of them, but then again, the amount you get from them it doesn't really help at all, I got a 300cp offer for one of them, ignored it and later on got 1200cp for the same guy (which I ignored again).



#17
mudd1

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I ended up having something around 48 prestige (50+ with visitors) and 58 (60+ with visitors). Earning about 1k copper and 50~100 copper lost by bandits.

 

Seems about right. Bandits don't take a lot of copper anymore for a fully rebuilt stronghold but I'm still not clear on how useful my hirelings really are.

 

The warden gives you 3 rounds of four enemies to hunt down and a last round of 3 heads. However, I don't think the rewards are good enough. You get 2400 copper for each one + some fine/exceptional items to sell. The last guys you hunt, however, drop some decent stuff, but these fights can be really tough. If I had known this early on, I wouldn't even bother doing bounties at all  :p

 

Prisoners are useless as far as I know. All you get from having prisoners is a slim chance of having someone in the future offer some gold for one of them, but then again, the amount you get from them it doesn't really help at all, I got a 300cp offer for one of them, ignored it and later on got 1200cp for the same guy (which I ignored again).

Well, it's not like prisoners are "useful" for anything in real life ;) But yeah, I was hoping for something more, although I can't say what. I mean I expect not killing people will reflect on my reputation, even though I didn't verify that.

 

Regarding prisoners and quests though, there is clearly something off: I had a bounty quest to kill a criminal who had escaped from prison. When I didn't actually kill him but put him back into prison, which seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do given that this is where he came from, I wasn't awarded the bounty. The quest didn't fail either yet. I would have expected that if some effed up legal system really wanted to see this guy dead, I could still deliver him alive, put him to trial if needed and have them sentence him to death. But no, he's just sitting there and making me question whether the game had expected me to actually cut his head off when he pleaded for mercy. 


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#18
Lasci

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You can get Gaze of Adragan traps from the trapmaker dude. I've never had any interest in checking the scroll because they're easy to make, but there might actually be something there worth taking a look at. 

 

Also, story purposes. You get a better ending if your stronghold is complete and, frankly, it's not like you're ever hurting for money in this game.

 

I do agree that it definitely feels like an awkwardly added on feature.


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#19
Osvir

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You can get Gaze of Adragan traps from the trapmaker dude. I've never had any interest in checking the scroll because they're easy to make, but there might actually be something there worth taking a look at. 

 

Also, story purposes. You get a better ending if your stronghold is complete and, frankly, it's not like you're ever hurting for money in this game.

 

I do agree that it definitely feels like an awkwardly added on feature.

Oh hell no. Now you're stretching it. They've developed the Stronghold (at least on paper) since the Kickstarter.

But it's always been somewhat of a B priority. I do feel it is kind of a bottle-neck. I kind of want to tell the Keep Guardian just "STFU and fix the Eastern Barbican so I can get out of here!" but it's more like "You have to fix it for me my Lord". Can't I threaten the statue with a Hammer and Chisel or something? :p

That might seem like I don't like the Stronghold (I do like it) but on my second playthrough I didn't even want the Stronghold because I wanted to roleplay a different type of character but I still had to "get it". Meanwhile, the statue mentions a path that takes longer to get to Defiance Bay, and I was all "Sure I'll make that trek, where do I go?" but nothing. I ended up fixing the Eastern Barbican and went on my way.

Is there some entrance into the Endless Paths from a nearby map? (Woodend Plains?). That'd be pretty interesting to be honest (and a tangible option to take if you want to ignore the Stronghold all together): "Fix the Eastern Barbican or trek into Dungeon Level 3 and get out at Wooded Plains". Kind of like that mountain pass in Diablo 2 to get to a destination where the ancient tree is (and sub-sequentially get the scroll to teleport to tristram and save cain).

My (reasonably doable(?)) wishlist for the stronghold:

- Trade with Factions (Trade with Raedric, Valian Republic, Twin Elms, Defiance Bay, Gilded Vale etc.)
- Craft specific items for visitors (Incentives to build crafting buildings)
- More bounties (And a bounty warden in Admeth's Den or similar if you choose to not get the Stronghold)

- An Inn merchant on the first floor of Brighthollow (Probably the most important, imo).
- Visitors or Hirelings that upgrade your specific built locations (Merchant Hirelings. Currently all the Hirelings are Mercenaries)
- Adventurers or Companions actually aiding with the construction and maintanence of the Stronghold based on their background, class, and culture. We have all these backgrounds, but they only really matter on the MC. If you made a bunch of Laborer Adventurers, why couldn't they be "Laborers" for the Stronghold? (2 Days construction becomes 1 Day Construction?)
- Chapel Diety upgrade. Do you follow Wael? Magran? Skaen? Etc. Upgrade the Chapel to honor a specific Diety.

- In light of the Chapel Upgrade, maybe being able to Upgrade various buildings? Tier 2, Tier 3, etc.
- Send Adventurers or Hirelings to patrol the roads (And minimize Bandit lootings).

- Depending on how you deal with the Adra Dragon, hire her to defend the Stronghold (for the time being). Or gain some boost or defense mechanism if you complete the Endless Paths. Something tangible (Maybe there was something but I completely missed it? If there is, then it should be more clarified).

 

My (wacky) wishlist for way WAY into the future:
- Wage war or diplomacy.
- Construct war machines, hire soldiers/troops.
- Research technologies.
- Conquer (Exterminate).
- Send scouts to Living Lands, Rautai etc. (Explore).
- Mine resources, tax citizens (Exploit).
- Create outposts and gain more territory (Expand).
- 4X RPG ;P

The latter list would probably require a complete worldmap, allowing the Player to adventure with their party whilst maintaining their base of operations, and, preferably, have characters you meet in the world (with your MC) react to you depending on your status as ruler and their own faction.


Edited by Osvir, 08 April 2015 - 11:07 PM.

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#20
mudd1

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Oh hell no. Now you're stretching it. They've developed the Stronghold (at least on paper) since the Kickstarter.

But it's always been somewhat of a B priority. I do feel it is kind of a bottle-neck. I kind of want to tell the Keep Guardian just "STFU and fix the Eastern Barbican so I can get out of here!" but it's more like "You have to fix it for me my Lord". Can't I threaten the statue with a Hammer and Chisel or something? :p

That might seem like I don't like the Stronghold (I do like it) but on my second playthrough I didn't even want the Stronghold because I wanted to roleplay a different type of character but I still had to "get it". Meanwhile, the statue mentions a path that takes longer to get to Defiance Bay, and I was all "Sure I'll make that trek, where do I go?" but nothing. I ended up fixing the Eastern Barbican and went on my way.

Is there some entrance into the Endless Paths from a nearby map? (Woodend Plains?). That'd be pretty interesting to be honest (and a tangible option to take if you want to ignore the Stronghold all together): "Fix the Eastern Barbican or trek into Dungeon Level 3 and get out at Wooded Plains". Kind of like that mountain pass in Diablo 2 to get to a destination where the ancient tree is (and sub-sequentially get the scroll to teleport to tristram and save cain).

My (reasonably doable(?)) wishlist for the stronghold:

- Trade with Factions (Trade with Raedric, Valian Republic, Twin Elms, Defiance Bay, Gilded Vale etc.)
- Craft specific items for visitors (Incentives to build crafting buildings)
- More bounties (And a bounty warden in Admeth's Den or similar if you choose to not get the Stronghold)

- An Inn merchant on the first floor of Brighthollow (Probably the most important, imo).
- Visitors or Hirelings that upgrade your specific built locations (Merchant Hirelings. Currently all the Hirelings are Mercenaries)
- Adventurers or Companions actually aiding with the construction and maintanence of the Stronghold based on their background, class, and culture. We have all these backgrounds, but they only really matter on the MC. If you made a bunch of Laborer Adventurers, why couldn't they be "Laborers" for the Stronghold? (2 Days construction becomes 1 Day Construction?)
- Chapel Diety upgrade. Do you follow Wael? Magran? Skaen? Etc. Upgrade the Chapel to honor a specific Diety.

- In light of the Chapel Upgrade, maybe being able to Upgrade various buildings? Tier 2, Tier 3, etc.
- Send Adventurers or Hirelings to patrol the roads (And minimize Bandit lootings).

- Depending on how you deal with the Adra Dragon, hire her to defend the Stronghold (for the time being). Or gain some boost or defense mechanism if you complete the Endless Paths. Something tangible (Maybe there was something but I completely missed it? If there is, then it should be more clarified).

 

My (wacky) wishlist for way WAY into the future:
- Wage war or diplomacy.
- Construct war machines, hire soldiers/troops.
- Research technologies.
- Conquer (Exterminate).
- Send scouts to Living Lands, Rautai etc. (Explore).
- Mine resources, tax citizens (Exploit).
- Create outposts and gain more territory (Expand).
- 4X RPG ;P

 

Also, Dwarf Fortress ;) No seriously, I was also hoping for some more impact on the game. I mean look at it, with Madhmr Bridge gone, Caed Nua controls the only bridge over the ... whatever the name of that river is and in fact the only land route to Defiance Bay for everyone west of that river. That's a huge deal! Yet the reaction of people to you rebuilding the place are nonexistent as far as I can tell. People treat you differently because you helped some dude they don't know and don't care about but you controlling that strategically important choke point, raising taxes, becoming a local lord ... all that stuff, nobody ever mentions?

 

It might even have been an opportunity for roleplay. What if you were showered with copper from all the trade going through your lands and then suddenly Madhmr Bridge is going to be rebuilt, threatening to make you some backwater bypass for Defiance Bay again and cripple your income? Are you going to pull strings to keep that project from happening, even if it means people in the area are worse off? Maybe even kill someone over it?

 

Travel-map.jpg


Edited by mudd1, 08 April 2015 - 11:29 PM.

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