Memorials problem.

[Creslin321]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What's up with so many pages of discussion?

 

From all the badly-written, fanfiction.net-tier backer crap that we got in the game, this is the first thing I see that actually fits the world of Pillars of Eternity. And this thing's not even a joke about trans people, it's a joke about a dude who decided to kill himself, a radical decision, because he simply slept with a man. I hope you can see that the funny part is not the trans person in itself, but the man killing himself because he slept with a man.

 

Also, the person who got triggered by the joke is somebody who tweets things like "I still plan to #KillAllMen. Not changing that goal ever.". Christ, those people will never not be offended. They'll always find things to complain about.

I'm going to explain this once, which you will no doubt ignore.

 

How high is the possiblity of there being an actual killing spree against men by "SJWs"?

 

Ok, how many times has the panic defense actually been used by murder defendants?

 

Also, are you going to post here again or did you make an account just for that?

 

 

So are you arguing that somehow this joke is contributing to the actual murder of transpeople?  That sounds like a slippery slope if I ever heard one...

 

Look, I'm not arguing that bad things don't happen to transpeople, they definitely do.  But I'm pretty confident that this joke has nothing to do with those things, and will never have anything to do with those things.

 

This isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I'm just pointing out it's a little disingenouous to make them equivalent.

 

 

I don't think that they believe that people posting #KillAllMen are ACTUALLY going to kill all men.  But I do think that it's hate speech regardless.

 

A little off topic, but do you think that uttering an anti-Irish slur in America and say, the N-word, today, are equivalent?

 

I'll chime in. No, but that is amazingly american-centirc. This game is released in more than just America, so your specifying down to just America seems... strange.

 

 

Yes, I know. I was just trying to cut down the possibility of an evasion by making the situation more specific.

 

 

Look, I know what you're getting at here, you're trying to say that because of the specific history of the US, that anti-black slurs are "worse."

 

But honestly, I don't know if that's true.  Anti-black slurs are definitely more unacceptable in the US, but are they worse objectively?  I would say no...hate speech is hate speech.  Just because a group of bigots has not persecuted another group YET, does not make it "okay" to spread hateful rhetoric around.

And to give perspective, imagine you are in Northern Ireland during the Troubles...what slur to you think would be more dangerous in that environment?  Anti-black or anti-Irish?

[deuxhero]

It may seem trivial to change the dialog in English, but PoE has been translated to SIX other languages.

 

If this dialog is changed, Obsidian needs to pay SIX translator different translators to come back and translate the new line.

Edited March 30, 2015 by deuxhero

[DrTuring]

Hell, I'm pretty sure myself it was a joke about "The Crying Game," where that situation was almost the same thing.

[LiveSpartan235]

Please don't change it Obsidian this is just a vocal minority who will seek out things to be offended to. These are the same people who got offended at Lionhead for tweeting this https://archive.today/DrYdX and then proceeded to dogpile them until they removed it and apolgoized. Obsidian this will blow over no one will be talking about in a day or 2 they'll already have found another thing to be offended at.

[deuxhero]

Actually that reminds me of the guy who tried to get the FF MMO censored because it played on the title of The Crying Game as a quest name.

 

He was owned badly by someone pointing out he never actually watched it and he just (wrongfully) assumed it was made by sane people who realized XX<>XY, because if he actually watched it he would know the tone was nothing like he claimed.

Edited March 30, 2015 by deuxhero

[Fenrir007]

 

What's up with so many pages of discussion?

 

From all the badly-written, fanfiction.net-tier backer crap that we got in the game, this is the first thing I see that actually fits the world of Pillars of Eternity. And this thing's not even a joke about trans people, it's a joke about a dude who decided to kill himself, a radical decision, because he simply slept with a man. I hope you can see that the funny part is not the trans person in itself, but the man killing himself because he slept with a man.

 

Also, the person who got triggered by the joke is somebody who tweets things like "I still plan to #KillAllMen. Not changing that goal ever.". Christ, those people will never not be offended. They'll always find things to complain about.

I'm going to explain this once, which you will no doubt ignore.

 

How high is the possiblity of there being an actual killing spree against men by "SJWs"?

 

Ok, how many times has the panic defense actually been used by murder defendants?

 

Also, are you going to post here again or did you make an account just for that?

 

 

So, you are saying #KillAllMen is just a joke, and as such, we should ignore or laugh at it...?

 

You know what else is a joke? The poem in question. Why not apply the same logic to it?

[shmerl]

I personally think Obsidian shouldn't heed such complaints. This forced censorship is annoying. While it's not a joke that's appropriate in general, it's not wrong to have something like that in the story context. Characters and story are not equal to author's views on propriety.

Edited March 30, 2015 by shmerl

[Osvir]

Out of everything to be offended by in this amazing game and story (which Obsidian has had their free hands to go at).

Don't want to say more than that, still working on actually finishing the game (About 30 hours in, just got to the Dyrford :D deja vu and Backer Beta nostalgia on top of all the Infinity Engine nostalgia lol).

[Lephys]

The irony in all of this:

 

How often the people who are battling stereotypes actually stereotype the offenders.

 

There are two types of people in this world:

 

1)Those who are trying to figure out what's true and what isn't

2)Those who simply decide what's true and isn't without knowing anything.

 

You (general "you," to avoid confusion here -- not a specific person) can decide what agenda someone's got all day long without actually knowing, but that makes you no better than someone who decides that entire groups of people are bad because of some common trait that has nothing to do with badness.

 

Obsidian's entire game deals with baby-killing, racism, etc. Doesn't mean they're actively condoning these acts. They're just telling a story about them.

 

The person who made that stone was simply making a silly "how'd this person die" tombstone rhyme. It's the same reason we say "Oh no, such-and-such is going to KILL me!" when referring to someone's anticipated anger, but don't actually think that the taking of human life is funny.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

After my current game, my new PC will be Keldorn Lightbringer. He will find a letter stating he was adopted and has a long lost brother called Firedorn Lightbringer and travel to the Dyrwood to find out what became of him.

[topologista]

I'm happy to see that Josh Sawyer responded and I hope they remove it. This is a great game and transmisogyny has no place in it.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

"Transmisogyny" When making up words reaches new levels of idiocy. Normally I am all for productive exchange, but that word doesn't even sound right.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

I'm happy to see that Josh Sawyer responded and I hope they remove it. This is a great game and transmisogyny has no place in it.

Right, pretty sure you are a troll, but please provide any evidence that the person in the limmerick is trans.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Somewhat relevant here:

 

 

A backer, whoever that might be, submitted this controversial limerick to Obsidian and unless the devs working on this are incompetent(I don't believe they are), it was looked over by at least one person who found no problem with it.

 

With this in mind, is there any reason to remove it beside it offending someone? If that reason is "transmisogyny doesn't fit the setting", then why does rape, religious persecution, racism, and slavery belong while that doesn't?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Serious question. why ISNT Transmisandry a thing? Why is it transmisogyny?

[AnsFenrisulfr]

Serious question. why ISNT Transmisandry a thing? Why is it transmisogyny?

Because double standards are hallmarks of those with hard ideological positions.

[topologista]

Not a troll, just a backer expressing her opinion. Transmisogyny is misogyny directed towards trans women, typically because they're trans. The trope of straight dudes crying because they had sex with a woman who "is really a man" (which is itself a transphobic thing) is related to the concept of trans panic. Many trans women face violence at the hands of straight men who feel that they were "deceived" and thus "panicked". Many men have even gotten away with murdering trans women using this trans panic defense. So that little "limerick" is in very bad taste. 

"Transmisandry" isn't a thing because misandry isn't a real thing and the discrimination trans men face tends to be related more with homophobia and transphobia in general. 

[YourFaceIsTriggeringMe]

Because people like to make up words to get attention, who the heck knows? That is off-topic.

Let this thread die already. It has already been pointed out that the original text does not establish that one of the people involved is transgendered. Said person could be transgendered or the dude who killed himself could have been drunk or high, or... who knows? An illusion spell cast by a mage who had a grudge against the person who killed himself?

Useless discussion about a non issue.

[Azzer]

1: There's nothing in the poem that shows a trans person was involved at all. Was it two men, badly drunk? Was one of the men a man dressing up as a woman? Was it a transwoman? Who knows. It's left up to the reader's imagination.
 
2: Regardless of #1, nothing about the poem was misogynistic, let alone "TRANSmisogynistic". It was an ever so slightly salty poem about a man who got really really drunk, did something he regret to insane levels, and jumped off a cliff. It's not real. It's a silly salty poem that fits the theme of the fantasy world really well. If you think THAT was bad, then wait until you learn that in Pillars of Eternity, there's violence, murder, abduction, and all round bad stuff! Shock! Horror! Trigger the faux-PTSD alarm bells!

 

3: In the poem, no harm is done toward the person who may be a man, may be a man in woman's clothes, or may be a transwoman. No harm is aimed at them, suggested toward them, or done to them. The only person who comes to harm is the clueless butt of the joke - the man who jumps off a cliff!
 
4: It is a work of fiction, about fictional characters. Even *IF* #1 was true, and then *IF* #2 was ALSO true (neither of which are the case), and then *IF* #3 was wrong and the possibly-maybe-transwoman was harmed, even then it STILL wouldn't matter. Fictional characters ARE ALLOWED TO BE MEAN. Fictional characters in a fictional world can and should represent all walks of life, bad and good. Imagine if every single book, film, game, work of fiction or art everywhere never had anything but nicey-nicey hug-box content? UGH.
 
5: I've said it before and I'll say it again; Being offended does not give you any rights. It simply means you are offended. Get over yourself. The world is not meant to wrap you up in a cosy blanket from everything, especially given that what is offensive to some can be the opposite to others, and vice-versa.
 
Any hyper-offended person that reads that poem and thinks it somehow means that either Obsidian themselves or the individual backer that wrote it hate transwomen (or ANY people of any sexuality, gender, race, religion, ANYTHING) are either utterly deluded, or projecting their own bigotry at truly IMAX levels.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Azzer

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Serious question. why ISNT Transmisandry a thing? Why is it transmisogyny?

Just my opinion here, but probably because Female to Male is less common than Male to Female on the internet scene.

 

I mean, if you go looking for trans porn, you're going to find almost entirely MtF stuff. If you look for notable individuals, it's also MtF dominated. To be honest, the only FtM I can think of off hand is Chaz Bono and he has quite a bit of time in several spotlights.

 

I'd be interested at looking at the rates of FtM and MtF compared in terms of percentage of population, but I can't find any good studies with my weak googlefu.

[DrTuring]

"Transmisandry" isn't a thing because misandry isn't a real thing

You have to be joking.

 

You're seriously saying that men NEVER, EVER get prejudice sent their way? Really?

[Hellraiser789]

I can't believe this has been going on for 24 pages... 

 

Honestly, can't see how this is an issue. Its a dirty limerick - they're actually pretty common in literature, music, history, etc. I might be wrong, but I think there were similar tombstones in other games, including BG1/2. Also fairly common in classic literature (Canterbury Tales anyone?). Although I could be recalling wrong on both accounts, but either way, I'd say its not the first or last dirty limerick I will read/hear about.

 

Also, its pretty vague. As others have mentioned, it doesn't offer nearly enough evidence to support that anyone involved was transgendered. Being a man? Yes. But not necessarily transgendered. Here it is again, just cuz I find it funny and relevant to the current conversation. Also, I think it fits in with the setting PERFECTLY, and do not mind its existence in the slightest.

 

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran."

 

Plus - its a dirty limerick and a joke - is it REALLY that big a deal? Are we going to cancel the game, demand refunds, and bash a game company over THIS? of all things? REALLY? I just don't get it. And the argument about the person who started all this - maybe she should reconsider posting #KillAllMen or whatever if she wants to be taken seriously. Otherwise, I will view her opinion as a joke and dismiss it as such - similar to this limerick, actually.

 

That said, if the LGBT community does find this to be offensive, I don't think offering a patch to make the backer content optional is a bad thing. In fact, from what I heard, many people would like this anyway, as they find many of the backer-supplied content to be out of place, so I think that would be a pretty reasonable solution, personally. Asking for more or less is just pushing the agenda, and I can't really support that, as it would really screw over Obsidian one way or the other. (Don't support LGBT community vs Don't support Kickstarter backers == Lose/Lose)

[takamorisan]

So what I've seen in this thread an interesting question sprang from it.

 

What would you do if your position on this debacle is not listened to?

 

Someone mentioned about being a costumer and wanting the joke out, but how about the costumer who wants the joke to stay in? Still consumer feedback regardless.

 

Should we treat this discussion as a bloody hooligan fight, my team vs your team? Think about it.

 

It breaks my heart to see people giving more importance to this instead of playing the game. Its a huge fun game by the way.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

"Transmisandry" isn't a thing because misandry isn't a real thing

You have to be joking.

 

You're seriously saying that men NEVER, EVER get prejudice sent their way? Really?

 

Well...something something prejudice + power = misandry.

 

Of course I've never been able to understand how say Ellen Pao(current CEO of reddit) or Kristen Gillibrand(US senator from NY) has less power than some factory worker who barely makes enough to support his family, but I tend to view power as more of an economic or political attribute than vague social attribute.

Edited March 30, 2015 by KaineParker

[R.Alexander]

Wow, that was a lot of pages to read. I will go ahead and post my thoughts on this discussion.

 

1. First of all, Obsidian has no reason to defend the content. They did not create it. If it had been some kind of theme in the game such as slavery or something, then they should, and I am sure would, defend the content with why they included it and what they hoped to achieve from it. However, they didn't, so I don't expect them to.

 

2. They seem to be in a no win situation at this point. If they remove it, they will be accused of caving in to social pressure even if that is not the case. I could decide to do or say something in a work I create, and at first thought be okay with it. Then, someone could bring up to me reasons why I should not do or say said thing. I could agree with them and remove said thing from my work without it being me caving in. I could of just had my mind changed about including the thing in my work.

 

3. I personally don't see anything wrong with the limerick. As someone who believes that you should try to not be offensive if you can help it, I think this is just people trying too hard to be offended, and I wouldn't remove it if it was my choice. However, I would not blame or feel any ill will towards Obsidian if they did, because it is not really their work.