Companion's Builds, ouch.

[Oneiromancer]

 

Kind of a random spot for this but I can't think of anywhere else in the forums to put it, but why does Pallegina have, with no equipment and just after resting: -2 DR, -3 Pierce DR, -2 Flame DR, and -2 Freeze DR?

 

I think there may be something funky going on with her starting armor. She has abnormally high DR against everything for me.

 

It's supposed to increase DR by ~1.5x while under 25% endurance but I think it's displaying that and possibly granting it all of the time now.

 

Maybe something bad/buggy also happens when you take it off.

 

Edit here's what her DRs are when I take it off -

 

http://i.imgur.com/SkNCutN.jpg

 

O_o

 

 

My Pallegina has the same problem. I posted it on the "technical support" forum but got zero responses. I guess it didn't help that it wasn't a gamebreaking bug and got pushed to the 7th page in half a day. I tried reloading before unlocking her quest and closing the game/restarting and it didn't change anything so you're probably right, it may be something funky going on with her armor. 

 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72975-pallegina-negative-defenses/

[Telmorial]

I'd like to add my voice to this thread. They've made a superb game, I love just about every aspect but the stats, talents and abilities they chose for the pre-made companions are awful.

I know, I can make custom characters but I like the personalities and history of the pre-made companions.

I think the answer is to allow a (maybe one off per character) respec option. What do you guys think?

 

And on a side note, has anyone tried the IE Mod, mod which has an option to change a character level back to 0 then allows to re-level. Does it work? Does it allow us to choose all the stats, talents and abilities? And does anyone have any thoughts regarding the danger of that mod breaking the save game somehow, perhaps only being noticeable later in the game.

[Manty5]

The munchkin thread! Now I know I'm really back in 2001.

 

Excuse me?  Do you see anyone here advocating putting 3's into dump stats? 

 

No?

 

Well then.

[Hysterion]

I'd like to add my voice to this thread. They've made a superb game, I love just about every aspect but the stats, talents and abilities they chose for the pre-made companions are awful.

I know, I can make custom characters but I like the personalities and history of the pre-made companions.

I think the answer is to allow a (maybe one off per character) respec option. What do you guys think?

 

And on a side note, has anyone tried the IE Mod, mod which has an option to change a character level back to 0 then allows to re-level. Does it work? Does it allow us to choose all the stats, talents and abilities? And does anyone have any thoughts regarding the danger of that mod breaking the save game somehow, perhaps only being noticeable later in the game.

I use IE mod without any problems or breaking any saves.

 

About the other question, you can reset them to lvl 0 but you can only respec their talents and abilities, no stats which is kinda sad. Stats are the bigger problem then talents and abilities

[gkathellar]

I'd like to add my voice to this thread. They've made a superb game, I love just about every aspect but the stats, talents and abilities they chose for the pre-made companions are awful.

I know, I can make custom characters but I like the personalities and history of the pre-made companions.

I think the answer is to allow a (maybe one off per character) respec option. What do you guys think?

 

And on a side note, has anyone tried the IE Mod, mod which has an option to change a character level back to 0 then allows to re-level. Does it work? Does it allow us to choose all the stats, talents and abilities? And does anyone have any thoughts regarding the danger of that mod breaking the save game somehow, perhaps only being noticeable later in the game.

 

ChangeClass is still a beta feature. It has some problems.

 

Setting Attributes to something better with AttributeScore is perfectly viable, though, but you should be aware that Racial and Cultural bonuses are applied on top of the base score for whatever reason.

[HozzM]

Can any of you with some modding experience data mine what the companion builds are at each level?

 

My first game I got Eder at Level 3 and he had 

Abilities

Constant Recovery

Defender

Fighting Spirit

Knockdown

 

Talents

Rapid Recovery

Weapon Focus Ruffian

 

Which seems to be an extra Talent.  Next game I grabbed him at level 2 and he had:

 

Abilities

Constant Recovery

Fighting Spirit

Knockdown

 

Talents

Rapid Recovery

 

So I am wondering if the game compensates for 'bad' builds by giving the companions that level up on their own extra talents/abilities or if this is a situation specific to Eder?

[Minttunator]

Cheers, bro!

 

I'll try to remember to post the skills here for future reference when I get access to all the companions.

 

Okay, I got all the companions and here's their skill spending at the level I got them. I'm listing how many points they've spent, so for instance 6 points spent = the companions' skill is at level 3 + bonuses.

 

Eder has spent 6 points on Athletics at level 2.

Aloth has spent 6 points on Lore at level 2.

Durance has spent 6 points on Mechanics at level 2.

Kana has spent 3 on stealth, 6 on lore, 3 unused points at level 3.

Sagani has spent 3 on stealth, 6 on survival, 3 unused points at level 3.

Hiravias has spent 3 on lore, 15 on survival at level 4.

Pallegina has spent 15 on Athletics, 3 on Lore at level 4.

GM has spent 6 on Stealth, 10 on Athletics, 2 unused points at level 4.

 

Grieving Mother's skills seem bugged, I had to click increase/decrease a couple of times to get it to show the proper numbers (the skills showed up lower than expected immediately upon level-up).

[noctred]

FYI - you can just create a wizard at the Gilded Vale inn with the spells you want, take her grimoire and give it to Aloth, then kill off the wizard. It costs a bit of money but nothing major, and at least your Aloth won't have any wasted spells.

[BrokenMask]

Eh, as someone who has now after few days played the game(I've spent over 40 hours on this and I started on thusday) until the final quest and eight level of endless paths on normal and leveled everyone to 12, I'd say that to people who don't even bother checking companion stats(yes I never actually checked them nor even what talents they had on recruitment) they are fine.

 

I mean, maybe adventurers you get at inn are optimized better when you do it yourself, but on normal at least companion party members still kick ass so to people who are too lazy to optimize, they wouldn't really notice that they are apparently subpar.

 

So seeing you guys be like "Compannions are terrible, add rebuild option!" its feels kinda weird when I don't give a crap since I feel like they are good enough xD

Edited March 30, 2015 by BrokenMask

[gnoster]

Playing on normal I haven't really experienced many problems with the companions builds, though I certainly do see the point people are making about ability scores and skills being kind of poorly distributed. Personally I would like for companions just to start at level 0 once you take them on, so that I could level them to their actual level myself. I know it wouldn't solve the ability score issue, but it would minimize the overall problem I think. Or maybe add a respec option as part of a building in the Stronghold costing 1k gold pr. respec or something.

 

To be honest I have a bigger question than stats, and while this may not be the thread for it, I'll ask anyway for people's experience: In games like Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 it was possible to run with an evil party or at least chaotic party. While alignment isn't really a thing in PoE and the companions so far for me don't seem to react to anything I do or say, is it possible to go 100% good or evil and have some of them leave, attack, or react negatively? If there's no reaction, then it's fine because it only matters on your playstyle (of course it was cool to piss of Jaheira in the olden times and I'll miss that, but it'll work).

[BrokenMask]

 

To be honest I have a bigger question than stats, and while this may not be the thread for it, I'll ask anyway for people's experience: In games like Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 it was possible to run with an evil party or at least chaotic party. While alignment isn't really a thing in PoE and the companions so far for me don't seem to react to anything I do or say, is it possible to go 100% good or evil and have some of them leave, attack, or react negatively? If there's no reaction, then it's fine because it only matters on your playstyle (of course it was cool to piss of Jaheira in the olden times and I'll miss that, but it'll work).

Well, Grieving Mother at least leaves party if you sacrifice a child in that one quest

[Andtalath]

An NPC should be way less efficient than a powergaming one.

You are supposed to be able to create a realistic character and not be dead-weight to the rest of the team.

 

Powergaming-wise, it seems like it would be more efficient to build your own party, just like it's been in BG1+2.

 

It's not an action RPG, it's a fully fledged RPG.

 

Basically, easy being the recommended for first play-through means that you should choose 5 characters you want to try out their story in the first run.

The second run you might bring along a favorite or two from the first and maybe the three others from the first.

The third is supposed to be power-gamer, in which you probably hire adventurers from the start to optimize.

 

So, for easy they are fine since the game is fully playable in it.

For normal, it seems a bit rough, but definitely works.

For hard and above it might be too rough with them.

 

Seems well designed to me.

 

Also, I still remember destroying BG2 by playing multiplayer the first time around.

My characters where way over-powered for it to be as enjoyable.

[falchen]

They don't need to be min maxed powerbuilds, it's just annoying that so many of them have stats that do absolutely nothing for them. Like so many of the ranged characters/casters have high perception which is a tanking stat, why? Are you supposed to stick Aloth in plate and send him to the front? 

[cane]

I get the whole "NPC's shouldnt be min-maxed" but to be honest this is as far from min-max you can get. Most of the NPC's seems to have stats that intentionally are bad for them which is very odd. It's almost as bad as a Fighter in DnD with all points in intelligence/charisma, it does nothing at all for them.

[Ishmaril]

I kinda agree that PNC should not have perfect build, you can meet a fighter that is very intelligent like you could meet a sorcerer that is strong as an ox, kinda like real life even if its not really comparable.

 

They are not that bad, you dont have a wizard with 6 int. They have flaws, like anybody.

[solmyr]

It's almost as bad as a Fighter in DnD with all points in intelligence/charisma, it does nothing at all for them.

You are exaggerating... INT and CHAR are worthless all class (except INT for one class) in IE games. But in PoE all stats can be usefull, yes all (even Resolve and Perception : it makes Pallegina a tanky paladin for instance) and there are a lot of items that buff stats (I juste fond a +2 int cloak for Aloth who is now a decent wizard) so companions are not that terrible.

 

It's true that they are not optimal ... but are all human "optimal" for their jobs ? No . Do you see a lot of human who are strong like a bull or big as Richard Kiel in real life ? no . So your warrior don't have to have 18 might/ 18 con / 18 dex and your mage don't have to have 18 Int... A 17-18-19 value in attribute should be exceptionnal in the game. Even if I wish some stat's companion were better, they are acceptable to win combat and have discovering their stories. Having stats within a 12-16 range for the recommanded attributes class value is fine.

 

 

 

 

[falchen]

 

It's almost as bad as a Fighter in DnD with all points in intelligence/charisma, it does nothing at all for them.

You are exaggerating... INT and CHAR are worthless all class (except INT for one class) in IE games. But in PoE all stats can be usefull, yes all (even Resolve and Perception : it makes Pallegina a tanky paladin for instance)

 

Of course tank stats are not going to be useless on a front liner, what does Perception do for Aloth or Sagani though? All stats being usefull for all classes is one thing Pillars tried to do but failed at in my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2015 by falchen

[solmyr]

what does Perception do for Aloth or Sagani though?

 

Buff Interrupt chance with AOE implement with Blast which can be quite usefull ? And attributes are linked to RP to make attributes coherent with the companion behaviour / personality. Everything is not centered around combat when you play an RPG, it's also being immersed in an universe. Having a party full of unrealistic minmaxed companion with dump attributes to 3 is not great on that purpose.

[Koiju]

I think its fair to say that all stats are more usefull in general in Pillars than in the old IE games, it is however, not perfect.

 

I also like the stat distributions on NPCs, primarily because they fit their personalities, certain stats wouldn't make sense on some of them simply because it doesn't fit them, this is important for immersion and roleplay purposes (this isn't just a game of mechanics and optimisation )

 

However, I also agree that there could perhaps be some improvement. But I don't think that the answer is to give them optimised stats (not everyone will want them in the same roles anyway, maybe I WANT Aloth to be a control mage for my party setup, or whatever).

I think the real solution is to tweak the bonuses stats give you, make them more balanced in terms of making all stats good for all classes, and maybe make the stats less impactful, particularly over the course of the whole game (ie, leveling up will alleviate some sub-optimal stats). This last point may already be the case for all I know, since I don't think anyones got to end game yet ^^

 

Although I certainly don't have any complaints if someone wants to just make a mod that lets you customise your NPC's, afterall, if I preffer the immersion of the base stats, I just don't use the mod

 

Thinking about it, I also feel that having the NPC's too well optimised would also make lower difficulties too easy, because having played on both easy and normal, honestly, their stats are fine. If they were to be buffed, casual players playing on easy would find their main character would feel usless next to the NPC's, so maybe it'd be better to adjust their stats based on difficulty? higher difficulty would give them better stats.... though the fact that you can change between easy and hard on the fly kinda causes problems there...

Maybe Obsidians decision to make them this way and just let you guys make your customise NPC mod is infact the best way to go... lol

...or maybe they could have added an option in new game creation that turned on the ability to customise the NPC's stats etc, with it turning off easy if selected, something like that...

[blindhamster]

I've been playing on hard, i'm in defiance bay and on level 6 now. I have Aloth, Eder, Durance, Kana, sagni and the druid, I've also made and used for portions of the game a rogue and a barbarian, with my main character being a Cipher.

 

honestly I dont think theres any real issues with their stats, they all do the jobs they need to do, Eder makes a good tank with the right gear and very little optimising for the roll outside of that. Aloth does all he needs to do with magic so far, Durance is mostly used to provide the big AoE heal and party buffs, I havent used Kana (he lives at the stronghold along with the two characters i built myself) Sagni is doing just fine, shes pretty decent with her bow, I've not used the druid much yet.

 

But overall i've not felt like the companions hampered me in any noticable way, their stats are made to fit the characters, which I like. Likewise my main character doesnt have optimised stats (15 10 15 12 14 12) but I've not had issues with him and i tend to run him in melee more than anything else...

 

it feels to me like stats have a much smaller impact on the character than general level and talents, I can see the issue with duff talents, but even there i think generally there arent any really terrible choices i've seen.

[falchen]

 Everything is not centered around combat when you play an RPG, it's also being immersed in an universe. Having a party full of unrealistic minmaxed companion with dump attributes to 3 is not great on that purpose.

 

 

Expect it is, if companions with high perception let you notice things in the world or could contribute to conversations this would be different, currently having high perception does not actually make them more perceptive in any meaningfull way though. Outside of combat it is just a number on their stat sheet.

[solmyr]

 

 Everything is not centered around combat when you play an RPG, it's also being immersed in an universe. Having a party full of unrealistic minmaxed companion with dump attributes to 3 is not great on that purpose.

 

 

Expect it is, if companions with high perception let you notice things in the world or could contribute to conversations this would be different, currently having high perception does not actually make them more perceptive in any meaningfull way though. Outside of combat it is just a number on their stat sheet.

 

Agree. I'm also sad that attribute checks are not party based :/ ...

[Hysterion]

This could all be solved if devs would implement a "Total" respec button, meaning both attributes and abilities/talents. This would of course be optional, if people like myself want to min/max characters, we can, if there are people who don't want that, well don't press the button.

 

Now there are console commands to change abilities/talents, but they are really wonky, you lose racial bonuses and any unique story related skill 

[Koiju]

You know thinking about it, im not entirely convinced by the 'resolve and perception is usless to a wizard' line of thinking. Sure early on in the game you only really come across melee enemies and its not hard to keep them away from your back line, but as im progressing im finding range is getting more common, I can definately see having low deflection as a serious problem on your back line characters against a force composed of several archers and some melee, the AI does seem to like targeting your back line for such things as I've noticed with shades. I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of thing gets more common later.

 

If it does get more common, it may explain why Aloth for example, has such high perception.

[Rjc]

Companions attribute checks in dialog could be a nice option for role-playing if you tie it to your main character disposition. For example, if you share at least 2 dispositions with Sagani, you can use her high Perception for dialog checks. It would be two like minded individuals sharing a knowing look, a nod or a whisper that gives you extra info on the situation. On the other hand, characters that don't approve of you would probably not care enough to let you know what they think.