Companion's Builds, ouch.

[Odd Hermit]

So, let me pose a hypothetical to people in the thread: say you could shift around the attributes for each companion, but couldn't actually change what the numbers were (so, for instance, you could move Aloth's 16 in Perception to Might, but you couldn't take two points out of it to give him a might of 14). What reassignments would you make?

 

Easy:

 

Eder

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 16 - 10 - 16 - 11 - 13 - 12

Aloth

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 16 - 10 - 12 - 11 - 16 - 13

Durance

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 15 -- 9 - 14 -- 9 - 19 - 13

Kana

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 16 - 12 - 14 -- 9 - 17 - 10

Sagani

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 18 - 11 - 14 - 11 - 13 - 10

Pallegina

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 15 - 11 - 14 - 13 - 12 - 13

Hiravias

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 15 - 11 - 14 - 10 - 14 - 13

Grieving Mother

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 17 - 11 - 12 - 10 - 16 - 12

 

_______

 

I've made them all offensively focused 'cause none have high enough durability for it to matter much. If I could swap Pallegina and/or Eder's talents out for something more defensive I could turn them into passable front-liners though.

 

Hiravias and Pallegina are just really middle-of-the-road still though since they have no high attributes to work with at all.

 

Grieving Mother would probably end up the most competent companion character with these swaps.

[revial]

It seems obvious that they're designed around RP reasons, rather than min/max reasons. You can hire your own adventurers if you want to min/max. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that they're not particularly effective at their classes, but they're not the hero of this story. You are. :D

[conanthelibrarian]

 

Uggh... was really wanting to use Pellagrina, but her MGT and INT are so bad.  

 

She has fairly good resolve and perception, with an above average constitution to booth so she can be used as a decent tank. She's probably one of the "least worse" Too bad about Grieving Mother having both low might and intellect, I'm still going to use her though!

 

 

I will still use her, just cause she looks cool and I like Paladins.  I am going to play as a Cipher, so I don't have to worry about GM!  

[HozzM]

So, the companions do seem to level up on their own before you get them...My Aloth was level 2 when I got him but Eder was level 3 when I got him.  Not sure what talent he took at level 3...Weapon Focus Ruffian or Defender.

 

Odd Hermit, can you edit your post with the locations for each NPC?

 

Thanks

 

edit: Found a link with Companion locations here http://guides.gamepressure.com/pillarsofeternity/guide.asp?ID=29835

Edited March 27, 2015 by HozzM

[Magrusaod]

Don't get me wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that they're not particularly effective at their classes, but they're not the hero of this story. You are. :D

 

This view is what I have issue with. This concept of "You have 1 PC and that's the important one. The rest don't matter as long as they bring dialogue!" that is being floated around. That's a great concept if you Solo the game, running into NPC's that add flavor in towns and on roads. Not in a game built around the 6 unit group working in synergy together in combat. At that point, you have 6 hero PC's, not 1 hero PC and 5 companions. It's a flawed concept and a big difference. 

 

If you are playing through multiple dungeons and on multiple quests through a campaign in an RPG with a group of allies of equal level to each other, they are all PC's/party members. It isn't Super Man and his hireling crew of followers. It's a group of allied people striving towards a common goal. Who all should be on relatively equal capability to do the job they are assigned within the group to survive their dangerous adventures. The concept of 1 PC and derpy companion sidekicks doesn't really work. Not unless you mainly solo the game, and only have the companions show up for moral support. Which isn't how this game was designed to be played. 

[Minttunator]

Durance

• Mig- Con- Dex- Per- Int- Res

• 14 - 15 -- 9 -- 9 - 13 - 19

Gotten @ level 3 w/ Interdiction talent.

 

Good stuff, thanks for compiling this information!

 

There's probably a typo in the quoted part - Durance has the Bear's Endurance talent (at least mine has it, I got him at level 2).

 

Any chance you could post their starting skills as well - in particular, how much they'd spent on their skills by the time you got them, in addition to the bonuses?

 

I just started the game and this is what I've got thus far:

Eder has spent 6 points on Athletics at level 2.

Aloth has spent 6 points on Lore at level 2.

Durance has spent 6 points on Mechanics at level 2.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Minttunator

[khadoran]

Wow so many complaints, I made a extra chanter to go with my barbarian only to find the companion chanter to be better built lol.

Well to my defence i had no idea the chants were so short ranged the shoot the big gun and then run in with 2handed sword just feels better for a chanter then what i had in mind.

 

Actually feel i got the party i want allready with just the characters Iv found, il mody likrly change the cleric for a druid later buy its good.

 

Barbarian

fighter

chanter

mage

cleric

ranger.

 

If il try later on hard il run paladins monks clerics ets.

Edited March 27, 2015 by khadoran

[revial]

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that they're not particularly effective at their classes, but they're not the hero of this story. You are. :D

 

This view is what I have issue with. This concept of "You have 1 PC and that's the important one. The rest don't matter as long as they bring dialogue!" that is being floated around. That's a great concept if you Solo the game, running into NPC's that add flavor in towns and on roads. Not in a game built around the 6 unit group working in synergy together in combat. At that point, you have 6 hero PC's, not 1 hero PC and 5 companions. It's a flawed concept and a big difference. 

 

If you are playing through multiple dungeons and on multiple quests through a campaign in an RPG with a group of allies of equal level to each other, they are all PC's/party members. It isn't Super Man and his hireling crew of followers. It's a group of allied people striving towards a common goal. Who all should be on relatively equal capability to do the job they are assigned within the group to survive their dangerous adventures. The concept of 1 PC and derpy companion sidekicks doesn't really work. Not unless you mainly solo the game, and only have the companions show up for moral support. Which isn't how this game was designed to be played. 

 

Everything you say is true, but completely not relevant to the issue, since in this particular "campaign" your character really IS the "hero", "chosen one", <insert other cliches> and it isn't just some random group of six adventurers off to make a fortune. 

[Magrusaod]

Aye, but it's a game designed for party play. You have your central character, and others with him/her. From the moment they enter your party until the end of the game. So, it is a very important point that is relevant. If these were temporary hirelings who showed up for a dungeon and waved goodbye, then your point would be valid. The game doesn't work this way however. 

An alternate view I can put on this is the difference between a Roommate, and a House Guest. 

A House guest, you tolerate their behavior as they are a temporary guest. You clean up after them and buy them dinner and act as gracious host. Even if they leave dirty dishes around and are ungracious. 

A Roommate however, once they move in are with you day after day. You expect them to help do laundry, vacuum, do dishes, help with the bills and grocery costs, etc. If they don't pull their own weight, you kick them out and replace them. 

The pre-made companions are the equivalent of interesting conversationalists who leave dirty dishes and laundry all over. Freeloaders who just use up  your groceries and eat up your time and energy take care of them. They don't contribute their weight to the party in comparison to you and your PC. This is my issue, and why I say your concept is flawed. They aren't temporary, they are meant to join you and stick with you until the end of the game. 

[gkathellar]

Also, what differentiates your PC from the companions isn't supposed to be their superior stat spread - if it was, that would be a feature. What differentiates you from your companions is that you're the Watcher, and you get special abilities to that effect. Your companions are, in theory, the faithful allies whose skills and experience make victory possible. The fact that the Watcher could do significantly better by going to the inn and hiring a bunch of anonymous jerks is ... grating.

[Voss]

It seems obvious that they're designed around RP reasons, rather than min/max reasons. You can hire your own adventurers if you want to min/max. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that they're not particularly effective at their classes, but they're not the hero of this story. You are. :D

That isn't obvious to me.  Actually I think that Sagani, Aloth, Pelle and Mother were designed around perception as an accuracy buff, and never redesigned when it was changed. 

RP does not equal bad. Sorry, but that is an absurdity.

 

I do find it amusing that Kana's biggest use for me so far is being a source of decent weapons. (Finally).  Actually using him... ugh.  Chanters aren't designed for this game.  Even on hard, I kill too quickly, and he almost never gets to use his invocations (and low level phrases are garbage). 

[zultor]

Are the premade companion stories, quests, interactions, etc worth the taking them?    Do they even have them?    I'm not terribly interested in min/maxing my party but all things equal I would use custom party members.    I am worried that if I do that I will lose out on some good stories, quests, etc.

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah something needs to be done about Invocations. They are too slow to show up. I'm not as good at this as you are @Voss so I have had a couple fights drag on to the point I could finish things off with a White Worms Writhed or that skeleton summons, but by then it was mostly the mopping-up phase. I love the way Kana Rua is written but mechanically he is somewhat underwhelming, at least with level 1 phrases. The level 2's are markedly better though.

 

Overall I'm enjoying playing with the companions; the less-than-stellar builds don't bother me at all. It's nice finding synergies between the classes; like Sagani's effectiveness got a big bump when I picked Hunter's Instinct for her and Deep Wounds for PC. Suddenly DOT everywhere and she's doing 1.5 x damage, making that piddly little hunting bow into a surprisingly effective engine of destruction.

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

Good stuff, thanks for compiling this information!

 

There's probably a typo in the quoted part - Durance has the Bear's Endurance talent (at least mine has it, I got him at level 2).

 

Any chance you could post their starting skills as well - in particular, how much they'd spent on their skills by the time you got them, in addition to the bonuses?

 

I just started the game and this is what I've got thus far:

Eder has spent 6 points on Athletics at level 2.

Aloth has spent 6 points on Lore at level 2.

Durance has spent 6 points on Mechanics at level 2.

 

 

 

Ah yes you're right - I actually said he had Bear's Endurance in my first post(and complained about it), and then I must've put the talent I gave him @ level 4 in the post w/the info instead of his first talent.

 

Unfortunately my saves are all past the point I can look at their low level skills now. None of them had high mechanics for me, Durance had 3 total - no idea why they put it on a class w/no bonus to mechanics. Kana or Aloth would've been better suited to it.

 

 

[Minttunator]

Cheers, bro!

 

I'll try to remember to post the skills here for future reference when I get access to all the companions.

[TrueMenace]

Someone should change all attributes for the companions and we vote on the agreed upon attribute spread for each of them, that way we are all on the same page. I think that would be auper cool, I'll make a post about this.

[Lohi]

Your companions are, in theory, the faithful allies whose skills and experience make victory possible. The fact that the Watcher could do significantly better by going to the inn and hiring a bunch of anonymous jerks is ... grating.

 

Well, it's about who's going to follow along with you.  If someone says "hey, I want to help, your cause is just!" you don't usally turn around and say "you've got a derp build, go away".  Sure, that's how MMO often players do it but that's more power play than role play.  Instead let the guy come along and sing some songs while you carry the day maybe.  If someone's playing on "hard" anyway then consider this an actual challenge.

 

The real drawback is that after a play through once you still have little idea about most of the classes really play if they were built by the player, and may not even have an idea of those classes are actually fun or not.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Lohi

[limaxophobiacq]

The real problem is that the way the attributes were set up was meant to make all attributes equally usefull for all character but its failed completely to do so, this kind of situation should just not have been possible no matter how attribute points were allocated.

 

I'm honestly really dissapointed in finding how incredibly restricted you are if you want to make character that's decently effective in this game.

Edited March 28, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Pidesco]

The munchkin thread! Now I know I'm really back in 2001.

[AncientToaster]

The real problem is that the way the attributes were set up was meant to make all attributes equally usefull for all character but its failed completely to do so, this kind of situation should just not have been possible no matter how attribute points were allocated.

 

I'm honestly really dissapointed in finding how incredibly restricted you are if you want to make character that's decently effective in this game.

 

I remember reading the Polygon interview with Josh Sawyer about stats and how they tried to eliminate Min/Maxing.

 

I don't think they succeeded at all honestly. I find it difficult to make an effective combat character as well because if you want to be on the front line, you need high Deflection and Defenses, but if you actually want to do damage, you need Might, but if you actually want to be able to attack in a reasonable amount of time you need Dexterity.

 

I don't feel like there is really any "dump" stat, I feel like I have to take points in everything and it sucks, because then I'm just gimped all over. 

[limaxophobiacq]

Yeah, I originally wanted to make a Chanter, because they seem really cool conceptually, but for weapons if I try to go 2 handed I have no survivabilty, and if I go sword + shield I dont drop but do completely negligible damage against any oppenent that actually matters and in either case my chants are barely noticable (esp. compared to how awesome the flaming weapons chant was in beta) and invocations aren't ready untill battle is over. Wanted to try a ranged Chanter but that doesnt seem all that viable either. My second choice was paladin but I really dont want to just tank but that seems like all paladin are really good for now. I've stopped playing after 15 hours played because I can't find any kind of build thats appeals to me that's in any way effective.

 

The way the game is based around having incredibly specialized tank/control/healbot/dps characters with extreme stats and balanced characters with all stats in the 10-15 range and a balance of damage, status effects, and surivability seem so sub-optimal doesn't appeal to me at all. I just want to play something well-rounded and effective like IE F/M, F/C, F/D, or F/M/T but it seems basically impossble. Cipher with some armor I guess is the closest to F/M but the lore (fantasy psions) and restrictions (no self effects etc.) turns me off them completely.

 

Edit: I feel like even within something like 'surviving attacks' you have to min/max, if you try to go for a balance with decent deflection and decent endurance you get left behind by those who max one and dump the other. So if you're playing a class with low deflection you should forget about trying to get it up to a decent level completely, and if you are playing a class with good deflection you should stack more bonuses on it and min-max attributes (bumping resolve and perception and ignoring constitution) untill it's incredible, at least that is my impression of the system and from seeing what people who seem to know are doing.

Edited March 28, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Bazy]

"The real problem is that the way the attributes were set up was meant to make all attributes equally usefull for all character but its failed completely to do so"

 

The goal was to make them equally useful. The goal was to make them not terrible for any class. Which they very successfully did.

 

 

 

"I remember reading the Polygon interview with Josh Sawyer about stats and how they tried to eliminate Min/Maxing."

 

How can you be so disingenuous? Josh clearly stated a number of time they simply tried to make the gap between the worst build and the min/maxed build not so ridiculous. This community would have burned obsidian down if he were to have said "no min/maxing" 

 

 

You cite the Polygon article (http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/25/8284763/how-pillars-of-eternity-rewrites-the-rules-for-role-playing). But you misquote the hell out of it. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Bazy

[Ohioastro]

I just don't see the huge impact that the min-maxers here are claiming.  Is 20% less damage really the  end of the world?

[Rosveen]

I just don't see the huge impact that the min-maxers here are claiming.  Is 20% less damage really the  end of the world?

My go-to game for the past several months was an MMO. Man, it's so refreshing to see someone say 20% isn't a problem. 

[Magrusaod]

The munchkin thread! Now I know I'm really back in 2001.

 

Not really. There's a difference between a character being completely ineffective and wanting that fixed, from wanting them completely min/maxed or char op'd. These Companions are meant to be in a party of heroes who go off to save the world or what not. They should at least be effective at their job. Effective at your job =/= min/maxed.