The problem of being rich as Croesus present in most RPGs

[Sabotin]

As others have pointed out it's probably solvable with crafting/enchanting mechanics. I actually have no idea how it works currently, but I suppose it has some exponential cost growth for more powerful items. You know, ultimate sword that's 3% stronger than the penultimate one but costs 20 times as much to make. Or some unique component that's needed for enchanting that legendary shiled has has to be imported from another area for a mountain of money.

 

The more people are being completitionist, the more money they will have I assume, so the money sinks should be geared towards that, on the fringes of main gameplay.

[forgottenlor]

 

Strangely enough I found an answer to this problem in an ARPG which I didn't find all that great, Torchlight 2. I was never actually poor in that game, but I could enchant all of my equipment, remove enchantments, and reenchant for massive amounts of money. The enchantments weren't usually all that sizable, but sizable enough to make a small difference at the price of obscene amounts of money. And why not? I didn't have anything better to do with the money. In Oblivion you could waste tons of money on trainers, which also wasn't so bad. Again if you trained intelligently you could get a fairly minor gameplay bonus for massive amounts of money. The problem with most RPGS is they don't offer a really worthwhile way for one to spend their money. I like the idea of paying someone massive amounts for a kind of magic service that is rare and hard to come by. 

 

Isn't Torchlight in a slightly different category though ? I haven't played it but I picture it as one of those endless diablo-like that feature insane costs for high level craft for the sake of kicking the player's butt to go venturing forth again and again in order to collect money to be more powerful to be able to collect more money and my brain is melting.

I don't think such a logic fits a game like PoE. I still believe the best, and most lore-friendly, solution is to feature the same kind of shops/dudes selling some noteworthy, mighty and magical stuff. With the nice item description that goes with it where you actually realize you've been fooled and it's a damn painted wooden stick you just bought for 12000gc.

 

 

Yes it is. It is an insane Diablo like clone. I still don't see though why a professional enchanter charging insane costs wouldn't fit into lore. I also think it fits into the real world. Rich people pay insanely for little boosts in quality as do businesses. Paying 3X as much for first class in a train in Europe yields a cup of coffee, slightly nicer seats, and a guarenteed plug for your laptop. Is that really worth 3X the price? Probably not, but if you have money to burn, who cares?

[CaptainMace]

Yes it is. It is an insane Diablo like clone. I still don't see though why a professional enchanter charging insane costs wouldn't fit into lore. I also think it fits into the real world.

 

I don't mind obnoxious people charging insane fees on things only them can provide, especially if you gain power in the process.

What I'm saying is that diablo-like games (and diablo II and III) did that for gameplay purposes, to fit the game design. Whether it's coherent with the lore or smthg doesn't really matter in that case, I just don't like these design logics.

That's why I don't see how it'd fit in a game like PoE that doesn't rely on that kind of "farming sessions" (whether they feel forced on not isn't relevant). So if a game like this features people charging a lot for enchantment when you can enchant yourself, it would basically mean your enchanting abilities are useless by the time you meet these people. Or your ability match 'em and they become the useless enchanters. Either way something is out of place.

Edited March 4, 2015 by CaptainMace

[forgottenlor]

Do we know for a fact that our characters can enchant in POE? Or is someone doing the enchanting for the characters? The enchanter in Throne of Bhaal was a crazy imp, so I don't see how having a hired enchanter with unusual abilties doesn't fit into POE.

 

It seems POE has a lot of animancers (or whatever they're called) who are mixing science and magic and people our willing to pay money for their crazy experiments (the explanation for undead in the world goes along with this.) Its like how some very wealthy people in the real world will fund cutting age, experimental, and often risky medical or technological research to fill their special needs. I don't see why it couldn't fit into the lore.

 

edit: I agree this shouldn't be a reason for farming. I'm just saying it could be an effective money sink. I didn't actually like Torchlight 2 enough to bother with farming, and skipped most of the side quests in the 2nd half of the game.

Edited March 4, 2015 by forgottenlor

[rjshae]

F:NV included money sinks like implants that were fairly expensive, but could be used to up your entire capability. These had the advantage that they supplemented whatever other gear you had acquired. Potentially something like this could be added that employs some type of soul-based 'technology' to enhance your core being. At higher levels, such enhancements could be made necessary in order to tackle the most powerful beings.

[Gromnir]

 

Gromnir is right.

If you design the game in a way that you can finish it by taking only the critical path, then somebody who does all side quests will have tons of money.

If somebody does all the sidequests, he should have more opportunities to spend in addition to more opportunities to loot.

 

There is no way to solve this unless you add optional money sinks (like buying furniture made of massive gold to make your stronghold look better).

I don't agree there is no solution, and I've actually proposed a few.

 

most of your solutions cause new problems.  shops with better gear creates a whole new set of problems for the developers.  yes, as a player you want to be able to spend your 1007 to buy improved gear, 'cause let's be honest, that is the only stuff worth buying in a crpg.  is not like you need save for your kid's college education. improved gear results in the game being easier.  the more sooper gear the developer makes available in shops and side-quests, the more likely they functionally make the game easier for anybody that does the side-quests.

 

paying to progress?  bg2 did that, but obviously the cost to do so must be kept relative to what is capable for a critical path player... which brings us back to our earlier comments about critical path players v. completionists.

 

paying to access side-quests or the tollbridge jokes is actual not a complete bad idea, though we would likely handle different.  pay for maps that open actual game locations on the world map?  pay for a ship's captain to take you to a location inaccessible by land?  there is reasonable ways to access game locations, but they is ultimate doomed.  at the locations you need pay to access, you will find 1007.  sure, the player will happily pay excess gold to reach the Graveyard of Dead Gods, where after terrible and epic battles they is able to recover the ________ of __________, a weapon/shield of great power... which only increases the gear problem we identified earlier.  

 

gold needs to a sink, not a well.  if you can draw forth gear or more gold from the sink, then you don't actual have a sink.  sadly, most folks is gonna be dissatisfied with an obvious sink.  people want something o' value for gold they is dumping into the sink.... which largely defeats the purpose o' the sink.  the only way the sink works is if the player doesn't get value other than cosmetic or aesthetic from his investment.  

 

HA! Good Fun! 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

 

If you design the game in a way that you can finish it by taking only the critical path, 

 

That is only way that you can design game that has finish state, as critical path is all the segments that player has to go through to finish the game. 

[rjshae]

BTW, why is having "too much money" a problem? What issue are you trying to solve by draining a player of funds?

[forgottenlor]

BTW, why is having "too much money" a problem? What issue are you trying to solve by draining a player of funds?

 

So many games end this way, so I'm used to it. Money has no meaning in the late game. The OP likes the idea of having to ponder the best way to use his resources in a meaningful manner, which only works when resources are scarce.,I admit that I like this as well. That said, I've enjoyed a number of RPGs where money loses its importance in the 2nd half of the game.

[Gromnir]

BTW, why is having "too much money" a problem? What issue are you trying to solve by draining a player of funds?

we observed earlier that, "the "problem," if it is a problem, is ultimately unavoidable and practically insurmountable."

 

people feels that they earned their extra gold.  they wanna have some kinda use for it other than stuffing it into their mattress and pretending to be smaug.  what use is gold if not to spend it?  so, some folks believe it is necessary to have ways to spend all that extra currency.

 

it isn't a problem about which any developer should lose sleep.  excess currency is an inevitable and insurmountable consequence o' providing optional side-quests.  we like more side-quests, so we don't mind the excess gold that is functional useless.  yeah, there is some nifty ways that developers might sink the excess gold w/o overpowering the player, but Gromnir don't need a sink.  is a considerable amount o' effort to create such sinks and we don't believe the effort is warranted.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps if the developers add nifty sinks, we won't complain.  be able to create a custom coat o' arms?  hey, that sounds like a good idea to us.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Gromnir

[Gairnulf]

BTW, why is having "too much money" a problem? What issue are you trying to solve by draining a player of funds?

Having an unlimited quantity of some resource, or just more of it than you would ever need, removes the need to choose between alternatives, and substitutes it with no-brainers.

 

Compare unlimited money to the lazy design decision of having unlimited inventory (with the Stash). That's called degenrative gameplay, and it's what PoE should be giving players a break from. You can't throw away items and pick them back up either.

[Hassat Hunter]

I hate, absolutely hate, crafting in RPG's. There's yet to be a RPG where crafting adds to the game rather than drains my enjoyment out of it.
Even if they are apparently well designed (like Divinity: Original Sin) they are just... a royal pain. Sure, you can make overpowered items with them, but why would I even want that. Why would I want to torture myself with crafting, only to get something that will reduce my game pleasure EVEN MORE as result. I just don't get this crafting fetish modern gamers have...

Well obviously the problem resides in accumulating a lot without being able to spend enough on relevant stuff. So mechanically you either make sure the player doesn't accumulate much, or is able to spend important sums.

I agree...

But you somehow call that "goldsinks" ? (Or I don't really get what a goldsink represent to begin with, this is about these very very expensive magical items right ?)

A goldsink would be an arbitrary and factual rather useless addition to the game which sole purpose is to make you spend a lot of cash. MMO's usually thrive in these, since they want to sell ingame currency for actual money. So stuff like item repair (upkeep), houses which you can buy 1 million gold chairs for, giant sums of money to learn skills etc. are added to make people get rid of their money, without getting anything in return for it.
With such systems you usually don't care about gold, it's an asset you grind just to check off checkboxes. "repair" check. "skill" check. So what do I do with leftover cash... oh, there's nothing to spend money on since it's all locked behind other assets.
The opposite of that would be to actually give gold a worth, by instead allowing it you to get good stuff for that gold, something oddly a lot of modern RPG's are afraid to do.

Let me just tl;dr it: "If gold is just something you collect to that 10 million for an achievement rahter than something you want to gather to buy that sweet item you found from the store, something's wrong..."

Although, potions and bandages as the main good to buy... meeeeh. Though if these are somehow either expensive or limited I guess. Because that obviously doesn't just concern the money situation when it comes to healing items.

During a gameplay vid I noticed a lot of these common goods dropped extremely often, and the player ended with 20 ropes or something, which was a bit extreme. Seems some events require items, but why would you not use 2 of the 20 you found in that last dungeon rather than using skillchecks you might fail?... :/ 

With the nice item description that goes with it where you actually realize you've been fooled and it's a damn painted wooden stick you just bought for 12000gc.

I'm soooo going to miss identify and cursed items... (we don't even have an crying emoticon? Whyyyy?)

[Lephys]

Gromnir is right.

 

If you design the game in a way that you can finish it by taking only the critical path, then somebody who does all side quests will have tons of money.

There is no way to solve this unless you add optional money sinks (like buying furniture made of massive gold to make your stronghold look better).

Not necessarily. You can make the money the player obtains more-or-less proportionate to the amount of stuff there is to spend money on (functional stuff). Maybe you have to spend lots of money on the stronghold to get the best crafters and wares into your market. You don't NEED the extra money, because you don't NEED the best stuff in the game. But, that doesn't mean it's pointless stuff, or you just tossing money at something to have something. Maybe you're going to play on Path of the Damned, and that need for the best equipment increases a bit. That sort of thing.

 

If you do all the money-getting stuff in the game, but don't spend it all on the things-to-buy stuff in the game, that's not you having "too much money." You have too much money if you buy all the functional stuff in the game and still have thousands upon thousands of gold lying around.

 

It's not really that it should necessarily be "difficult" to acquire plenty of gold. It should just be proportionate to the amount of "work" the player has to do. Overly simple example is that killing an optional dragon should probably give you more money (the stuff the dragon's guarding... not the dragon's bank account) than killing an optional band of highwaymen. If you don't kill either, you have to wait until that next crit-path source of income before you can buy some new armor for your peoples, or stock up on extra potions or something. If you kill the highwaymen, you can do some of it earlier. If you manage to kill the dragon, you can go ahead and buy new armor for everyone.

 

Not saying you can get it down to a perfect 1:1, where you end up with 0 gold at the end of the game. Nor is that necessary. But, as I said before, gold you simply don't-spend is not gold that needs to be "sunk."

[Diogenes]

There's only one solution. A blunderbuss that shoots coins at your enemies.

[Giantevilhead]

You find that the only acceptable system is one where you never run too short on money yet never hoard too much ? That's purely delusional, unless some very automatic game design is featured. I don't mind having too much money at the end of BG as much as I'd HATE a game designed to artificially tax me everynow and then on stupid BS.

 

Like using money to

• manipulate a region's economy
• influence a region's politics
• buy intangible things like respect, secrets, and silence
• frame/incriminate/trick enemies that you don't want to confront directly

 

Beside buying secrets (which both never cost much nor matter much), the rest goes far above the simple balance of the currency system.

I understand that it's obviously more interesting to explore gameplay mechanics instead of basic/overused tweaks. But the point of moneysinks and such is that it's easy to implement, it doesn't alter the gameplay in any other way than giving money hoarding purpose.

 

Really, the only problem as being filthy rich is being unable to profit. The only problem would be that there's actually no difference in being extremely rich and not being at all.

All we need is magic lore-friendly stuff really. Who cares if there's tons of money left in our pockets again by the end, why would that matter at the end of the game ?

 

It really shouldn't be that hard to implement those ideas. Just roll it into existing stories/quests.

 

They're already implementing quests with multiple solutions ranging from stealth to fighting to diplomacy. Just add one more way to solve it, economics.

 

Also, you can take a simple idea and present it in a more interesting way. For example, in BG2, you can increase your reputation by donating at temples. That was really boring since all you're doing is clicking a button to makes your reputation go up. You can easily implement that idea in a more interesting way by having it done through interacting with different characters. Instead of just clicking a "give money for reputation" button, it can be done by navigating through different dialogue choices. You can pay people to have different rumors spread about you, which can affect your reputation in different ways. Spreading certain rumors might increase reputation with one faction but lower it with another. Spreading different or even conflicting rumors about yourself could lead to interesting results. Other people could take credit for making up a rumor that you payed to spread. It's basically the same system as paying for reputation but you add another layer to it. You don't need to create a new mechanic for it and it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Giantevilhead

[Gairnulf]

There's only one solution. A blunderbuss that shoots coins at your enemies.

That would be admitting defeat though

[Madscientist]

First of all, I do not think that this is a problem at all. I played lots of games where this happened and it didn´t stop me from enjoying the game.

I can think of 3 ways to handle it:

 

- The western RPG: Thats what we dicuss here. We have some need for money in the beginning but sooner or later you get more money than you ever need. It worked for many games we consider to be good (like the IE games), so why change it.

 

- The JRPG: Whenever you come to a new town, you have to kill monsters until you have enough money for your new gear and spells. I don´t like grinding because it stops the flow of the game. Killing the same monster again and again for 1 hour just to get a weapon that does 5 points more damage before you go to the next dungeon is not fun.

 

- My completely insane idea: The game calculates the money you get depending on the money you have. If you have lots of money, chest and enemies give very little and if you have no money you will get more loot. This is complete nonsense and it would ruin the game but you get a solution for a problem that did not exist in the first place.

 

note1: Those concepts are not true for absolutely every western or JRPG, but quite a lot of them are this way.

 

note2: RPGs main focus should be on story, exploration and interactivety (choice and consequence). They are not economy simulators.

When people invented modern RPJs they said: You need items. You can buy items in shops. You need money to buy things. You get money from chests, enemies and selling items. Nobody ever questioned that concept.Money is just a tool to get items. As long as it does not disturb story or exploration, money should not be much of an issue for developers.

 

question: Is there any good RPG that does not have money or that uses a completely different economy system?

[CaptainMace]

EDIT : I'm a moron who dosn't read full mesages before replying and I deserve the holy fire. :>

Edited March 5, 2015 by CaptainMace

[Gairnulf]

Just another possible way of disposing of your money. While playing Underrail today, where I'm swimming in cash, in spite of some game mechanics intended to limit this.

 

If the game provides you with chances to use a large variety of skills - hacking, lockpicking, sneaking, social skills, etc. and you simply can't keep all of them at high enough level to pass the checks, but you want to pass a certain quest in a way which utilizes a skill you're not very proficient with - you can buy items that enhance that skill for serious $$$. For example, there are "lockpicks mark 2" which increase the lock difficulty you can pick if you use them, but there are even more complex and expensive tools, like the cloaking device which boosts your stealth, or motion tracker googles which increase your ability to spot stealthed characters, or traps.

 

Basically you can take a shortcut if you haven't bought enough points in a skill and buy them temporarily for a serious price.

 

I think PoE can take a lesson from that approach and adapt it to its own skills and skill checks.

[Gromnir]

Just another possible way of disposing of your money. While playing Underrail today, where I'm swimming in cash, in spite of some game mechanics intended to limit this.

 

If the game provides you with chances to use a large variety of skills - hacking, lockpicking, sneaking, social skills, etc. and you simply can't keep all of them at high enough level to pass the checks, but you want to pass a certain quest in a way which utilizes a skill you're not very proficient with - you can buy items that enhance that skill for serious $$$. For example, there are "lockpicks mark 2" which increase the lock difficulty you can pick if you use them, but there are even more complex and expensive tools, like the cloaking device which boosts your stealth, or motion tracker googles which increase your ability to spot stealthed characters, or traps.

 

Basically you can take a shortcut if you haven't bought enough points in a skill and buy them temporarily for a serious price.

 

I think PoE can take a lesson from that approach and adapt it to its own skills and skill checks.

is not an idea we would want implemented in poe.  sorry, but the idea is bad for same reason as we observed about gear.  the guys who do more than the critical path is already likely to have better gear than the crit path player and they may level a bit more.  even so, the game is meant to be beatable by the crit path player.  you is simple adding ways to make the game easier for a player with money.  boost mechanics and stealth and athletics through gold rather than leveling?  is a bad idea.  sure, there is gonna be skill boosting gear in the game... we expect that.  however, to have a mechanic wherein leveling limitations can be functionally overcome with gold is bad. 

 

gold sinks is fine.  a gold well is bad.  the sink should have the player voluntarily divesting themselves o' excess currency without gaining a gameplay benefit by doing so.  we suggested pay for a customizable coat of arms.  some folks would pay considerable gold to see their custom coat o' arms on their shied or arour or perhaps on banners outside their keep.  having a customizable coat of arms does not make game any easier for the player, but it would take gold from the player even so.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gairnulf]

Was I unclear? Probably...

 

This isn't a mechanic more than buying buffs from shops is a mechanic. So buying a potion of master thievery just in order to complete a quest by pickpocketing instead of killing is something you wouldn't approve of in PoE as long as the potion is really expensive?

Edited March 5, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Lephys]

There's only one solution. A blunderbuss that shoots coins at your enemies.

But then, what do you do once you've defeated your enemies? Loot their corpses. In this case, a bit more literally.

 

"Make sure you check between the ribs, lads! The gold likes to get stuck there a lot!"

 

[Gromnir]

Was I unclear? Probably...

 

This isn't a mechanic more than buying buffs from shops is a mechanic. So buying a potion of master thievery just in order to complete a quest by pickpocketing instead of killing is something you wouldn't approve of in PoE as long as the potion is really expensive?

you weren't unclear.  we would be against the potions precisely because it were "really expensive."  if is something the critical path player is not envisioned as being able to afford, then we don't want such stuff in the game.  BUYING success is the opposite o' the goal o' a gold sink, and making the game functional easier for the player who has acquired lots of 1007 (i.e. done the side quests) is resulting in the game being made less challenging for the folks who most likely already have the best gear and more experience.  

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Lephys]

I'm kind of okay with the strictly-crit-path playthrough being slightly "underfunded." What I mean is, you've got to make your money count at that point, and not just freely buy all the convenient stuff. After all, if you'd rather drive straight home, instead of going out of your way to stop by the grocery store on the way home, then you're going to do without groceries.

 

But, if you go explore some secret ruins, and find The Super Spiffy Plate Armor of Splenjesty, but you, for whatever reason, decide to sell that to the highest bidder and hoard that money, I'm no longer concerned with that money. What are you going to do with that money versus what that Plate Armor would've provided you? And could you have ever amassed enough money to somehow produce that armor, other than buy tackling whatever ruins it rested within? There's only so easy the crit path can become. If the game's designed such that being LvL 12 instead of 8 makes the crit path a huge deal easier, for example, then even without gold, there's a problem.

 

There's obviously a point at which you've made the game too easy just with what gold allows you to acquire, but, at the same time, merely being able to have lots of gold shouldn't really be an issue. I mean, why was all that stuff put into the game if acquiring it makes the game too easy? Seems like more of a design flaw of the stuff you get with the gold, than of the availability of the gold itself.

[Diogenes]

Something to keep in mind is that gold count is one of the ways in which players like to "keep score" in games like this. "I've depopulated countless dungeons, I stole the crown of Kurzak-Dum, avenged my cat's death and I've got over five million gold pieces. I'm the biggest badass around." etc etc

 

So it can be fun just to have all that gold even if you don't really need to spend it on anything.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Diogenes