Lord Wafflebum Posted January 10, 2015 Posted January 10, 2015 Murder hobos don't really seem like romantic types to me. Have you tried?
BruceVC Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 A game doesn't have to have romance in it to be well written or a great game. A game can include romance in it and be still be a great game as long as it's optional. This, QFT 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
aozgolo Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) While I am often a fan of romance subplots in games, I would generally argue that in most cases the community does a better job than devs at this. The number of romance mods for games that are far and away vast improvements over the in-game romances stand as a testament to this, but I believe this rule is not absolute and the RIGHT devs can make GOOD romance stories, but it needs to come from a desire to want to do that. The key difference often is the community who makes romance content does so out of a desire for said content, where-as developers often do it as a fan-service appeal to the community, which often leaves it's narrative hollow, or in worst case scenarios, the whole romance subplot feels tacked on. Skyrim I recall has one of the worst "partner systems", i don't even want to call it romance because there is none, and just felt horribly placed and gimmicky, but I have found mods for that game, particularly one called "Vilja in Skyrim" that handles it beautifully with a long engaging quest with a companion NPC that can lead to marriage as an option. Although Vilja can often be just as annoying as the Elves from BG2 at times. As for PoE, I believe as long as the tools/options are available to the community to develop their own content for the game (read: supported) then romance should not be a primary focus beyond the standard flirtations and innuendo that would be considered realistic for NPC interactions, and that this should be a large venue for the community to explore and create mods. If however for "reasons" PoE cannot or will not support community content, then I believe the absence of optional romantic encounters may be a considerable strike against it's "narrative sandbox". As huge a part of roleplaying as romance tends to be, leaving it inaccessible to players wanting to explore it, particularly if the companions in the game are very endearing to the player, leaves the whole experience feeling lacking for some. Edited January 12, 2015 by aozgolo 2
PrimeJunta Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 P:E is moddable and Obs have said they want to do their best to support modders. I have no doubt whatsoever that about three days from release the bang-your-elf mods will start rolling in, so never fear. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
redneckdevil Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Yep even reserved a space on nexus. Granted we won't be getting toolset like Bethesda gives out, but it will be mods
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 If I don't get to romance an elf, well, my life just feels empty. Cold and empty. Alone. Forever...
Yellow Rabbit Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Bah. You, guys, surely looking at things through nostalgia goggles. Who needs these elves when there are cute orlans nd sturdy aumaua? Maybe even godlikes will get some attention, if one don't mind genetic disorders so much.
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Hmm, I'm not sure how much love the godlikes could get? The fire godlike seems like a great way to get burns in very sensitive areas. The death godlike would make me extremely nervous. Moon might not be bad, with their soothing auras and such. I'm undecided on Nature. Orlans are too hairy. I detest hairiness. Aumaua are bipedal fish if I have my lore right. Physical intimacy might have some, eh, limitations? But any of my misgivings I could get over for the most part assuming the character was interesting enough. I've become increasingly interested in Chris Avellone's "unfulfilling romance" ideas the more I think of it. Admittedly I have a bias for elves. I always hooked up with Aerie in BG2 because I could never get things right with Viconia. I want PoE to have a "romance" with a lady elf that seems totally into me, but she was actually hired to murder me and I get a game over if I hook up with her. That's my kind of woman.
Yellow Rabbit Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 True. Fire godlike definitely would experience some trouble in his/her intimate life. Unless he/she has ways to turn off this flame for a while, turn vent or something. On the other hand, every party would be HAPPY to have fire godlike in its midst while in an area without any firewood to start a fire and cook some stew. Wouldn't you love fire godlikes in such circumstances? Hmmmm... Maybe we should ask devs to make fire godlikes count as one set of camping supplies? With several days cooldown afterwards, of course. Balance is sacred.
BruceVC Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Hmm, I'm not sure how much love the godlikes could get? The fire godlike seems like a great way to get burns in very sensitive areas. The death godlike would make me extremely nervous. Moon might not be bad, with their soothing auras and such. I'm undecided on Nature. Orlans are too hairy. I detest hairiness. Aumaua are bipedal fish if I have my lore right. Physical intimacy might have some, eh, limitations? But any of my misgivings I could get over for the most part assuming the character was interesting enough. I've become increasingly interested in Chris Avellone's "unfulfilling romance" ideas the more I think of it. Admittedly I have a bias for elves. I always hooked up with Aerie in BG2 because I could never get things right with Viconia. I want PoE to have a "romance" with a lady elf that seems totally into me, but she was actually hired to murder me and I get a game over if I hook up with her. That's my kind of woman. True. Fire godlike definitely would experience some trouble in his/her intimate life. Unless he/she has ways to turn off this flame for a while, turn vent or something. On the other hand, every party would be HAPPY to have fire godlike in its midst while in an area without any firewood to start a fire and cook some stew. Wouldn't you love fire godlikes in such circumstances? Hmmmm... Maybe we should ask devs to make fire godlikes count as one set of camping supplies? With several days cooldown afterwards, of course. Balance is sacred. Realistically you can only Romance a humanoid type creature, I made this point earlier but it was misunderstood. For example you can't expect to Romance a centaur because of the obviously different physiological features, a fire creature would present the same issue as mentioned because of the intimacy But nothing wrong with Romancing a Dwarf, Elf, Orc or any other kind of similar race Edited January 14, 2015 by BruceVC 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Evinshir Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 The thing about people is that when you have a group of people travelling together and in high pressure situations, relationships are an inevitable thing. It's disappointing that there isn't a "romance" element in the story because it does kind of try to pretend that people don't care about relationships. The problem with romance options in games isn't that they are a bad idea but that they have been poorly executed. Bioware has become better with dealing with them in their more recent games, but there is still the "it's just leading up to a sex scene" problem. Personally I think what would have been good is to see genuine relationships, including romantic ones, develop between the PC and NPCs without needing an obligatory sex scene. It could be as simple as having the PC and love interest able to flirt, refer to each other romantically, maybe when sleeping they wake up in the same bed or blanket roll. Just don't make a big deal out of the relationship except for when it impacts the drama of the story. But lacking any kind of relationship seems to undermine the goals of a game like Pillars of Eternity. Divinity: Original Sin did a great job of having the two PCs capable of forming a romantic relationship that didn't result in sex. They'd refer to each other affectionately and even discuss about how "after this insane adventure we totally have to take a holiday away together." It's not a binary issue. There are many ways to have "romance" in a game. On the other hand, if the developers don't feel that they can write romance without it sounding all cheesy and corny - then it probably is for the best to not have it. I know as a writer how tough writing any kind of intimacy is. Still, it does feel to me like a missed opportunity.
Yellow Rabbit Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) ^ ^ Yeah, see, that's my main problem with romances as you see them, Bruce. It's an RPG. You're playing a role. If you're rolling a centaur, it's okay for your character to harass centauresses. Would be strange for him to romance human, for instance, unless he's a pervert. Do you want romance to be able roleplay your character better or just because you like elves/orcs/whoever and want an option to... errr... make closer acquintance with them as yourself, disregard your character? The latter just wrong as for me. Edited January 14, 2015 by Yellow Rabbit
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I don't think romances necessarily have to culminate in a a trip to Poundtown. That's what the standard formula currently is in RPGs, but in a game like PoE I think the writers could come up with something dark and/or mature. Say a PC has a romance with a fire godlike. The relationship progresses and fire godlike is driven to find a way to be intimate with the PC, but ultimately fails. Then the fire godlike kills himself (or dies trying to remove his godlike curse). There's so much more that can be done with romances beyond what normally makes sense for RPGs.
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 There is plenty of real life horse fetish craziness that a centaur relationship isn't that much of a stretch. Don't act like it isn't true.
BruceVC Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 ^ ^ Yeah, see, that's my main problem with romances as you see them, Bruce. It's an RPG. You're playing a role. If you're rolling a centaur, it's okay for your character to harass centauresses. Would be strange for him to romance human, for instance, unless he's a pervert. Do you want romance to be able roleplay your character better or just because you like elves/orcs/whoever and want an option to... errr... make closer acquintance with them as yourself, disregard your character? The latter just wrong as for me. Sure I get your point, Romance is suppose to be about a more realistic and immersive RPG experience. As you go on this epic quest to save the world you find feelings developing for someone in your party, the feelings are reciprocated and faced with the fact that the party spends many nights together around a trusty campfire Romance truly blossoms But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically I don't think romances necessarily have to culminate in a a trip to Poundtown. That's what the standard formula currently is in RPGs, but in a game like PoE I think the writers could come up with something dark and/or mature. Say a PC has a romance with a fire godlike. The relationship progresses and fire godlike is driven to find a way to be intimate with the PC, but ultimately fails. Then the fire godlike kills himself (or dies trying to remove his godlike curse). There's so much more that can be done with romances beyond what normally makes sense for RPGs. I agree, Romance doesn't have to be about sex. So you could really spice things up in the game with a scorned fire godlike or some sort of impact to your party because your fire godlike wants Romance but thats not possible so it does something extreme like try to change its physical nature so it can attempt to form some sort of relationship So there are definitely nuances to Romance and how they should and can be implemented "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Agreed, and more nuanced relationships might change some minds as to the value they add to a storyline.
Yellow Rabbit Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Ok, I'll draw parallel with literature in this regard. Not really appropriate here, but should do to some extent. Romances per se are good tool to invoke emotional response, there's lot of interesting things could be done with them, sure. But there's entire genre in fiction dedicated to love stories being center of the plot. Have you ever read those books? Most are just horrible. We call it "pink snot in chocolate" on my native language, not sure if there's equivalent in English, but I hope you've got the point. Certain type of people get addicted to it for some reason. When it comes to RPGs, I always had feeling that narrative designers took romance concept right from those books right for the people addicted to them. "People find elves cute - let's give them option to romance (or even bang, ftgj!) some elves. And of course there should much talk about feelings and such." Yeah, and each and every weird but romanceable race psychologically is human, period. To make long speech short, I find devs' reasoning behind adding romances in a game wrong for well written romances. Not to add realism, show character's personality, add engaging plotline and all that, but to fullfill players' wishes for exotic chits and guys in context of game world with tools taken right from cheap literature. The best two compromises I saw for this in a game would be BG2 and P:T. In Planescape I didn't even realize there are something romantic until the end, and BG2 banters just pissed me off to no end. Realistically, though.
PrimeJunta Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically The state-of-the-art RPG romance already has you having sex with a bull. A horse is only the logical next step. 1 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Luckmann Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically The state-of-the-art RPG romance already has you having sex with a bull. A horse is only the logical next step. As a heterosexual, homosexual romances appeal to me no more than zoophiliac romances would, and games these days are full of those. So it's not really that odd.
BruceVC Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically The state-of-the-art RPG romance already has you having sex with a bull. A horse is only the logical next step. As a heterosexual, homosexual romances appeal to me no more than zoophiliac romances would, and games these days are full of those. So it's not really that odd. Er....you not seriously comparing homosexual relationships to a relationship with a horse are you? We try to keep bigotry at a minimum on this forum, its not cool "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hiro Protagonist II Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically The state-of-the-art RPG romance already has you having sex with a bull. A horse is only the logical next step.
Luckmann Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 But we still need to consider the realistic side of intimacy. The reality is its highly unlikely you would have sex with a horse? Sorry to sound crude but thats what a centaur is basically The state-of-the-art RPG romance already has you having sex with a bull. A horse is only the logical next step. As a heterosexual, homosexual romances appeal to me no more than zoophiliac romances would, and games these days are full of those. So it's not really that odd. Er....you not seriously comparing homosexual relationships to a relationship with a horse are you? We try to keep bigotry at a minimum on this forum, its not cool It's not bigotry, the comparison is apt. You were the one that brought up that "its highly unlikely that you would have sex with a horse"; it is in fact no more unlikely than me having sex with a man. To be perfectly honest I think I'd actually be more likely to have a romantic relationship with a female centaur than a male human, "consider[ing] the realistic side of intimacy". I have less than zero need for either in a game, honestly, but at least the one have the prospect of being interesting rather than feeling forced.
PrimeJunta Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 inb4 that shoop of kim kardashian as a centauress I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
BruceVC Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 inb4 that shoop of kim kardashian as a centauress Wowzers she is hot, She is the possibly the only centauress I would consider a little Romantic interlude with 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
500MetricTonnes Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Ok, I'll draw parallel with literature in this regard. Not really appropriate here, but should do to some extent. Romances per se are good tool to invoke emotional response, there's lot of interesting things could be done with them, sure. But there's entire genre in fiction dedicated to love stories being center of the plot. Have you ever read those books? Most are just horrible. We call it "pink snot in chocolate" on my native language, not sure if there's equivalent in English, but I hope you've got the point. Certain type of people get addicted to it for some reason. When it comes to RPGs, I always had feeling that narrative designers took romance concept right from those books right for the people addicted to them. "People find elves cute - let's give them option to romance (or even bang, ftgj!) some elves. And of course there should much talk about feelings and such." Yeah, and each and every weird but romanceable race psychologically is human, period. To make long speech short, I find devs' reasoning behind adding romances in a game wrong for well written romances. Not to add realism, show character's personality, add engaging plotline and all that, but to fullfill players' wishes for exotic chits and guys in context of game world with tools taken right from cheap literature. The best two compromises I saw for this in a game would be BG2 and P:T. In Planescape I didn't even realize there are something romantic until the end, and BG2 banters just pissed me off to no end. Realistically, though. In English, we call romance novels "bodice rippers," because they supposedly involve the male lead tearing the clothes off of the heroine before taking her to bed. Often they're called Harlequin Romances, after a major publisher of romance novels. Romances in games, if a game just has to have them, should be about the character, not player wish-fulfillment. Deionarra's unrequited love for The Nameless One in PS:T is there to illustrate what a complete and utter bastard the Practical Incarnation was. It wasn't there so Deionarra could be the player's waifu. And if you want to talk deranged wish fulfillment, there's no better example than Talimancers. The Tali'Zorah thread on BSN was like some Lovecraftian abomination from beyond the veil, a 10,000 page monstrosity that utterly destroyed the sanity of any mind that tried to comprehend it: Our exuberance and devotion to this place does not appear to be dimming as thedays go by - quite the ontrary. And it is not because of this place. No, it's because of what has been unleashed by the creation of Tali'Zorah vas Normandy as a character. I trust we are all painfully aware that she is not a living, breathing entity as we have come to understand such. She has become an ideal; her spirit as awakened something that has lain dormant deep inside many of us - each of us either secretly aware that we craved something or perhaps going through our daily routines unsure how to place our fingertips on it yet instinctively aware that something is missing. Each of us share this yearning to one degree or another and it is a shared commonality that forges these bonds between us that have been strengthened over the past few days. We are kindred spirits irrespective of our age, our experience, our country of birth or native tongue, we are alike becausewe have been awakened inside. We've had one of those rare opportunities that some people can search for for a lifetime to glimpse at our inner workings, compare it to the world around us and reached the conclusion that regardless of our station in life it can be even better. That we as individuals and as a collective group can be better- that we are already becoming better thanks to the resonating ,complimentary effect we are creating amongst ourselves. It may sound melodramatic yet I believe with an earnest heart and a clear mind that the adoration and love the character of Tali'Zorah enjoys is a testament to the recognition by many here that there is a love that can burn so brightly within the recesses of our souls that no darkness, no matter how grave, can extinguish. We, the so-called "Talimancers" - a term that may have started out as a half jest, have become a movement because we see clearly, perhaps for the first time in a while, that there are better and greater things in our brief existence than purely material and selfishpursuits. That the values represented in Tali'Zorah vas Normandy need not only apply to her but can apply to us and those around us. That we can find such a love-selfless, honesty, compassionate, modest, pure, brave and strong - and that it is something worth striving for. It is for these reasons that we have each come to love Tali'Zorah in our own individual way, and it is for those reasons that she, the character of Tali'Zorah vas Normandy,has become a rallying cry, a symbol.......And now I'm done. 3 "There is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." - Leo Tolstoy
Recommended Posts