Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Perhaps the reason they take it so seriously because it's their main way of dealing with / getting away from that?

 

Anyway, I think it's ludicrous that in the end, what you're saying here is "bad things are okay because there are worse things".

Fallacy of relative privation. Not a very good train of logic, because ultimately all issues but one will be considered unworthy.

 

And video game journalism ethics are more important than banning "bossy".

[Barothmuk]

Anyway, I think it's ludicrous that in the end, what you're saying here is "bad things are okay because there are worse things".

Well that's not what I was getting at all.

[Malcador]

You do make me laugh....

 

But guys lets be honest for a second. We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the  global community grapples with.....you can understand why many people don't take the idea of  a movement to highlight  " ethics in the gaming journalist industry  " seriously 

 

It does sound quite ludicrous compared to most other things people campaign for 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Malcador

[Barothmuk]

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Of course not.

 

Poor representation of females and minorities is indeed an issue, a much greater one then "Ethics in Game's Journalism". My issue with anti-GG is their praxis and how they waste so much focus and potential collective action on trying to fix one issue that's symptomatic of much larger issues.

 

Combat the big issues and the smaller issues will follow suit.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Barothmuk

[BruceVC]

 

You do make me laugh....

 

But guys lets be honest for a second. We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the  global community grapples with.....you can understand why many people don't take the idea of  a movement to highlight  " ethics in the gaming journalist industry  " seriously 

 

It does sound quite ludicrous compared to most other things people campaign for 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

 

 

 

 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Of course not.

 

Poor representation of females and minorities is indeed an issue, a much greater one then "Ethics in Game's Journalism". My issue with anti-GG is their praxis and how they waste so much focus and collective action on trying to fix one issue that's symptomatic of much larger issues.

 

Combat the big issues and the smaller issues will follow suit.

 

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry. There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

Edited March 4, 2015 by BruceVC

[Blarghagh]

Apples and oranges. Nobody died from female video game characters having large breasts either. You could call that institutionalized sexism, just like women in the middle east being opressed. Doesn't make it any more similar.

[Nonek]

No you can't compare the abuse of women or the curtailing of it, such as stopping the abuse of sex workers by hypocrites whom preach/lie about supporting womens issues, but that doesn't mean that you can't also insist that a multi billion dollar industry has ethical reporting and fit for purpose journalism. These are not mutually exclusive, a five year old could tell you this.

 

Improving the deplorable state of game journalism is an ethical and logical pursuit for any consumer.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Nonek

[Meshugger]

If people fail at fighting against corruption in Games Journalism, how on earth would they be able fight any injustice of greater magnitude?

 

Might as well just let the demons run amok and enjoy the show instead.

[Amentep]

 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Of course not.

 

Poor representation of females and minorities is indeed an issue, a much greater one then "Ethics in Game's Journalism"

 

But that's not Bruce's point. Bruce's point is that, say, "Islamic Extremism" dwarfs "ethics in journalism" in terms of importance.

But "Islamic Extremism" would also dwarf "women's represenatation in video games".

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry.

But that's not what we're comparing. We're comparing sex/gender in video games/video game industry (anti-GGs) and ethics in journalism (pro-GGs) and not the state of women in the world. And both of the formers dwarf in importance against, say, an Ebola pandemic.

 

There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

So because a person theoretically is working to improve games journalism means they can't also be working to improve other things that have nothing to do with games journalism? Are you really making that argument?

[Barothmuk]

But that's not Bruce's point.

And I wasn't arguing Bruce's point.

 

I was merely using Malcador's quote to clarify my own position.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Malcador]

 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Of course not.

 

Poor representation of females and minorities is indeed an issue, a much greater one then "Ethics in Game's Journalism". My issue with anti-GG is their praxis and how they waste so much focus and potential collective action on trying to fix one issue that's symptomatic of much larger issues.

 

Combat the big issues and the smaller issues will follow suit.

 

Yes it is, worrying about insufficient amounts of Asian, Hispanic, Lesbian or whatever in games or those women not being treated in some ideal way is pretty insignificant next to actual problems in the world (consider that an issue that one must crusade for is the stereotypical 'first world problem') which is what Bruce was carrying on about.

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry. There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

And considering our starting point of "We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the global community grapples with.....", how is 'represenation' in games any different ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Pretty much why the talk of "representation" in games is very laughable, no ?

Of course not.

 

Poor representation of females and minorities is indeed an issue, a much greater one then "Ethics in Game's Journalism"

 

But that's not Bruce's point. Bruce's point is that, say, "Islamic Extremism" dwarfs "ethics in journalism" in terms of importance.

But "Islamic Extremism" would also dwarf "women's represenatation in video games".

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry.

But that's not what we're comparing. We're comparing sex/gender in video games/video game industry (anti-GGs) and ethics in journalism (pro-GGs) and not the state of women in the world. And both of the formers dwarf in importance against, say, an Ebola pandemic.

 

There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

So because a person theoretically is working to improve games journalism means they can't also be working to improve other things that have nothing to do with games journalism? Are you really making that argument?

 

 

You make some good points, I am just surprised at times by the amount of energy that seems to be spent on the topic of " ethics in the gaming industry"...but each to there own 

[Nonek]

Utterly astounding on a video game developers forum, oh wait no it's not.

 

Good Lord.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry. There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

And considering our starting point of "We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the global community grapples with.....", how is 'represenation' in games any different ?

 

 

Excellent question, I'm glad someone asked that 

 

Representation in  games may seem like an inconsequential factor compared to those other points but it is part of broader agenda which is effectively equality that we should strive for in all our societies. So you will notice that in everyone of those extreme examples I mentioned that the world grapples with in almost cases those countries don't practice equality or aren't  very concerned with the happiness of there citizens. So gender equality is actually one of the definitions of a mature and progressive society....and representation in games is part of that which makes it relevant 

[BruceVC]

Utterly astounding on a video game developers forum, oh wait no it's not.

 

Good Lord.

 

Nonek it sounds like you having a bad day.....tell me about it...I'm a good listener  

[Nonek]

 

 

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry. There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

And considering our starting point of "We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the global community grapples with.....", how is 'represenation' in games any different ?

 

 

Excellent question, I'm glad someone asked that 

 

Representation in  games may seem like an inconsequential factor compared to those other points but it is part of broader agenda which is effectively equality that we should strive for in all our societies. So you will notice that in everyone of those extreme examples I mentioned that the world grapples with in almost cases those countries don't practice equality or aren't  very concerned with the happiness of there citizens. So gender equality is actually one of the definitions of a mature and progressive society....and representation in games is part of that which makes it relevant 

 

 

Just as ethical standards in journalism, free speech, anti corruption and anti censorship are even more important parts of a civilised society, your argument is insipid and biased towards the cause you purport to support.

[Barothmuk]

Lol

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Yeah what Baro said, also  you can't possibly compare the state of gender equality in the world to ethics in the gaming industry. There are women who live and die under horrendous social and institutionalized  conditions. No one died the last time I checked due to perceived bias in the gaming industry ?

And considering our starting point of "We are living in a world of massive economic inequality, Islamic extremism, wars in Ukraine, global pandemic viruses, an unstable Middle East, the rise of a haughty and jingoistic Russia and many other serious challengers that the global community grapples with.....", how is 'represenation' in games any different ?

 

 

Excellent question, I'm glad someone asked that 

 

Representation in  games may seem like an inconsequential factor compared to those other points but it is part of broader agenda which is effectively equality that we should strive for in all our societies. So you will notice that in everyone of those extreme examples I mentioned that the world grapples with in almost cases those countries don't practice equality or aren't  very concerned with the happiness of there citizens. So gender equality is actually one of the definitions of a mature and progressive society....and representation in games is part of that which makes it relevant 

 

 

Just as ethical standards in journalism, free speech, anti corruption and anti censorship are even more important parts of a civilised society, your argument is insipid and biased towards the cause you purport to support.

 

 

Ah yes I was waiting for someone to raise this....well done Nonek 

 

The reason why ethics in the  gaming industry is not the same as gender equality is because there is an  ongoing debate about whether there is an issue at all around so called " corruption in the gaming industry ". Many people, like me, think this whole issue has been horribly exaggerated. Sure there are some issues like in every industry but not to the degree where its so ubiquitous and fundamental like you guys would have us believe. So basically there isn't a concise and accepted definition of what " ethics in the gaming industry " really means 

 

But very few people will doubt that gender equality is something that concerns most of us on different levels...I'm sure you can see the difference ?  

[Nonek]

You're using the same argument that has already been defeated Bruce, try listening as you say you're good at it, so why exactly is gender representation in games which is also contested, any different?

 

The answer: The whole issue around corruption, unethical behaviour and cronyism in gaming journalism has far more evidence behind it than the argument that gender representation is flawed in games. Thus why Sarkeesian cherry picks her arguments and outright lies about games she has not played.

 

Edit: So what's next in the usual boring routine, repeat yet again another fallacy already used and disproved as idiotic, say good point because you've been soundly defeated and disproved then ignore what has been said, make an attempt at a witty remark with a smiley or beg off on the pretext of being at work?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Nonek

[Longknife]

 

Uh, that is the #GamerGate opposition, Barothmuk.

It was the easiest way to sum up the whole GG/anti-GG thing in as derisive a way as possible.

 

I suppose "videogames are serious business" would have also sufficed.

 

 

 

As I and others have stated on multiple occassion, for myself this is bigger than video games. I have never read games journalism websites beyond a once-per-three-month check in on some game I'm hyped for. I've always considered video games journalism untrustworthy since the Doritos Pope and since I learned at a young age that those IGN score reviews weren't coming anywhere close to my own personal reception of the games I bought. I find it ironic that looking back on it, those Nintendo Power magazines probably provided the most non-bias reviews of any game I purchased, and that's saying something...

 

 

   But you cannot tell me with a straight face that MSNBC, ABC, the BBC and various other mainstream media news outlets which are SUPPOSED to hire the best of the best in the industry can report and provide highly slanted accounts of GamerGate that are poorly researched, and that there's no problem there. This implies that either A.) Those big time journalists are actually incredibly lazy and slacking off, and made little to no effort to understand the issue beyond copy-pasting articles pre-written for them, or B.) They knew damned well what the full story looked like, but had no interest in publicizing the full story, instead preferring to provide coverage to the most emotionally-charged and hysteria-ridden narrative on the topic at hand.

 

 

Either way, this is an issue. If those are supposed to be the experts in journalism and reporting, then we have a serious problem. Today it's Bayonetta getting a sub-par review score, tomorrow it's blatant lies about Russian actions within the Ukraine, or indirect encouragement to address issues of Muslim immigration in european countries in the most violent, sensationalist manner imagineable.

 

All GamerGate is, to me, is a blemish on a Hydroelectic Dam that I said looked odd or misplaced, and then when I went to clean it, the whole freaking Dam started bursting. To me this is about ethics in journalism. Not games journalism, journalism universally. My interest won't cease once Kotaku and Polygon shut down due to loss of traffic, my interest will cease once I have answers as to why ABC, BBC and various other major news networks thought it ok to run the pieces they ran.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Longknife

[Malcador]

Representation in  games may seem like an inconsequential factor compared to those other points but it is part of broader agenda which is effectively equality that we should strive for in all our societies. So you will notice that in everyone of those extreme examples I mentioned that the world grapples with in almost cases those countries don't practice equality or aren't  very concerned with the happiness of there citizens. So gender equality is actually one of the definitions of a mature and progressive society....and representation in games is part of that which makes it relevant

 

Wasn't questioning it's relevancy, just its significance - and as you say it is inconsequential in the face of major problems.  It's a really small component of gender equality, true, though thinking of something like women's access to education vs "women are strippers in GTA" does make me laugh.

 

It does give people something to wring their hands over though.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Malcador

[Amentep]

You make some good points, I am just surprised at times by the amount of energy that seems to be spent on the topic of " ethics in the gaming industry"...but each to there own 

Its not like a person can't physically support multiple causes at one time - and its not like most of the stuff that GG has done to support "ethics in gaming" like emailing sponsers of websites they find have questionable practicises to take all that much time.

 

Heck, a significant portion of the people who are regularly discussing Pillars of Eternity on this very board have probably spent more time discussing it than people did mailing/emailing letters or the like, I'd guess.

 

 

A.) Those big time journalists are actually incredibly lazy and slacking off, and made little to no effort to understand the issue beyond copy-pasting articles pre-written for them,

There are, apparently, a number of people who feel that the national news in the US has pretty much come to that. Between reading company press releases and talking about what is trending on twitter, I don't see much else going on in US news...

Edited March 4, 2015 by Amentep

[Longknife]

 

A.) Those big time journalists are actually incredibly lazy and slacking off, and made little to no effort to understand the issue beyond copy-pasting articles pre-written for them,

There are, apparently, a number of people who feel that the national news in the US has pretty much come to that. Between reading company press releases and talking about what is trending on twitter, I don't see much else going on in US news...

 

 

And this is a problem, because information is a powerful thing. So if one random "trusted" news network can claim "Obama murdered a man!" and the others all follow suit in the interest of not being left behind, then they fact check only much much later (if at all; sorta feels like fact-checking sometimes only occurs when enough pressure to do so is applied, which is exactly what GamerGate has been doing and another reason I consider it important)....well, a lot can happen in the time it takes for them to get off their butts and get the story straight.

 

  I name Russia and Ukraine as an example because Russia's go-to card is that western media lies. Given my own personal experiences with russian people and my questions regarding their culture and politics, I would still bet money Russian media is horrendously dishonest, but all the same: if you know your media outlets can and will lie to you, then you're that much more receptive to a foreign entity claiming your media is lying to you. What are we gonna do the day another Ukraine Crisis breaks out and both the Western and Eastern news stories on the matter are considered untrustworthy? Who will help the Ukraine? Who would have the motivation to when they feel it's impossible to uncover the truth of the matter? It would all be at the detriment of the Ukraine, as every onlooker would want nothing to do with it, and lack reasonable evidence to prosecute their attacker. We already know what can happen when the news media is lazy or dishonest: the USA fought a friggin' war in the middle of nowhere in the Middle East because of it, because apparently "chilling out watching news in a nice house in Pakistan" and "hiding out in Iraq with Saddam" are "close enough" by journalist standards.

 

 

All GamerGate has provided? GamerGate is a movement that back when it started, games journalists scoffed and said it wouldn't last more than two months. It's half a year now and Gawker is down six figures. GamerGate is important because it's actually ticked off enough to actually bother to look into these false narratives and hold the journalists accountable.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Longknife

[Barothmuk]

As I and others have stated on multiple occassion, for myself this is bigger than video games.

Here we go.

Either way, this is an issue. If those are supposed to be the experts in journalism and reporting, then we have a serious problem. Today it's Bayonetta getting a sub-par review score,

I’m sorry THIS is the biggest fault in news media at the moment? Someone had the audacity to give a review of a videogame, and you don’t agree with it? THAT’S what we’re going to snowball from!?

 

Could you be any more painfully transparent.

To me this is about ethics in journalism. Not games journalism, journalism universally.

And I’m confident had this story uncritically condemned the “anti-GG” side you would be filled with equally self-righteous fury. Edited March 4, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Longknife]

 

Either way, this is an issue. If those are supposed to be the experts in journalism and reporting, then we have a serious problem. Today it's Bayonetta getting a sub-par review score,

I’m sorry THIS is the biggest fault in news media at the moment? Someone had the audacity to give a review of a videogame, and you don’t agree with it? THAT’S what we’re going to snowball from!?

 

Could you be any more painfully transparent

 

 

I've never even played or owned Bayonetta, dude. It was a mere example.

 

 

Furthermore, your post amounts to little more than your perception of the situation. AKA, you think it's pathetic that for ethics in journalism to arise, a video game needs to get a bad score. I would call your focus entirely misplaced and argue you're missing the point entirely.

 

 

My stance is I do not care about the motivations or what you think about the people working towards better ethics. I do not care if 95% of the GamerGate community is nothing but fans with undying loyalty to the Bayonetta franchise who are vowing vengeance against all of the media because Polygon short-strawed their game. I do not care if you would refer to these people as "nerds with too much time on their hands who live in basements and desperately need to be a part of something to feel important."

 

 

What I care about is that stuff gets done. (and before this gets taken out of context, OF COURSE I'm not saying "GamerGate can commit murder as long as change in the news comes about!!!" Of course not, let's be rational here and assume rational thought from me so I don't have to make stupid little clarifications every few sentences) And as I highlighted above, that's why I care about GamerGate. GamerGate has exhibited a resilience that isn't often seen. We've all seen a lot of movements in our lifetime, and a lot of them die quickly. But GamerGate? If you want my opinion, the way games journalists lied was so undeniably obvious, so undeniably bold and so undeniably crass that it simply got people's jimmies hella rustled. It's not that people care more about vidja games than Russia, it's just that the attitude exhibited by games journalists was arguably more disgusting in a way; don't get me wrong, the Ukraine crisis discounts the worth of human lives to a degree GamerGate doesn't even touch on, but the Ukraine Crisis exhibits a level of shame in it's actions that GamerGate's opponents (the journalists and outspoken SJWs like Anita) do not. It's an unspeakable level of bold to think you're entitled to call your readership - the reason you get paid at all - a bunch of self-centered misogynist losers, let alone doing it the moment they come asking if you've been dishonest with them. Even Putin's smart enough to put on a well-meaning or "innocent" visage when commenting on his actions; he doesn't attempt a "covert" invasion and then twist the knife midway through by saying the USA is a bunch of scum and they better shutup about Ukraine or he'll level NYC, all while filming himself pissing on a photo of Obama and the American flag. I promise you, had he done that, people would be disgusted with his absolutely shameless intent and the world would be up in arms about ensuring that guy lose his presidency in Russia while getting Russia out of Ukraine with nothing to show for it. GamerGate got people worked up because it's exactly as though that happened. It's the absolutely shameless intent behind the actions of games media that got people worked up, because it instills an attitude of "we can't let them get away with that!" in people which, as you can see, seems to be doing pretty damned amazing in the longevity category.

 

Shameless intent disgusts people because it implies the person is soooooo out of touch with reality and so off in their own little world that change needs to happen ASAP or things are gonna get extremely ugly; it scares people aswell as launches people up in arms to right any blatant wrongs. It's a case where the wrongs are so obvious that no one hesitates to raise their sword or not because they're 100% sure the action is justified, and they're eager to show they know right from wrong.  The games journalists get scrutinized 'round the clock whereas Putin is now quietly sitting alone and licking the wounds done to his economy because Putin at least has the sense and the capacity to act and be reasonable when he so chooses; he can be spoken to. Games journalists presented an attitude that suggested they could not even be spoken to, which is very alarming and suggests something needs to be done about them and their jobs if any change is to come about. That's the true difference here, NOT that video games are truly considered more important than war, global climate change and poverty combined. In that regard, it's not surprising that the spark came from an industry severely underqualified, as that industry is more likely to breed childish behavior and callous actions, no?

 

 

   But again that's just my theory, and again, it's largely irrelevant.

 

The important thing is that for whatever reason, GamerGate does not back down. It keeps going and going, and it has the determination, the drive, and the dedication to bring about change. Whether this dedication comes from having nothing better to do and living an otherwise meaningless life, a rabid disgust of any perceived injustice, or a rabid fandom of Ms. Pacman, that does not matter to me, because the end result is that it's leading to GamerGate uncovering some real issues and going about ways to solve them.

 

 

 

  Point me to a long-lasting and highly active movement that's constantly trending on twitter (AKA constantly being discussed by people), that opposes dishonest journalism and has it's roots set in the Ukraine Crisis, Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, unfair baked bean prices, a disgust of ridiculous wigs - you name it. I do not care about the cause (so long as I don't find it unjust and fundamentally disagree with it's motivations) so long as it shows the capacity to bring about change in what's obviously a very corrupt media empire we've got going now. It just so happens GamerGate is that movement, because if you take Reddit or this very forum as a sample case, then GamerGate is the one with the six-month long series of topics. Not Occupy Wallstreet, not wikileaks. GamerGate. Strange, but true.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Longknife