435 Discussion

[Lephys]

The only thing I don't like about making 1H style just attack faster is that that's pretty much what dual-weapon style does, right? Ideally, each style would give you a different bonus (even if you had SOME overlap, like one giving you something + deflection, and another giving you something else + less deflection). So, it'd be nice if the 1H style gave you something worth scratching your chin over. "Maybe I should pick that, and use this character in this manner in combat." Instead of "Maybe I want to attack faster, but not quite as fast as dual-weapons."

 

So, maybe 1H gets a faster attack rate AND some unique bonus (still can't figure out a really good one)? Or just a slew of minor bonuses, making it the well-rounded choice? *ultra-shrug*

[Diogenes]

So when Ciphers dual wield only one of their weapons gets the Soul Whip glow, this is a grievous crime.

[Bazy]

So when Ciphers dual wield only one of their weapons gets the Soul Whip glow, this is a grievous crime.

Bug report this. 

[Sock]

The only thing I don't like about making 1H style just attack faster is that that's pretty much what dual-weapon style does, right? Ideally, each style would give you a different bonus (even if you had SOME overlap, like one giving you something + deflection, and another giving you something else + less deflection). So, it'd be nice if the 1H style gave you something worth scratching your chin over. "Maybe I should pick that, and use this character in this manner in combat." Instead of "Maybe I want to attack faster, but not quite as fast as dual-weapons."

 

So, maybe 1H gets a faster attack rate AND some unique bonus (still can't figure out a really good one)? Or just a slew of minor bonuses, making it the well-rounded choice? *ultra-shrug*

 

Frankly, I feel that 1H style is fine and well balanced, it's 1H weapons that aren't. There aren't any readily accessible powerful 1H weapons in the beta, much less any that really take advantage of it's strong point: high crit chance. Only the spear can recieve an on crit effect, and that's only if you chose the right option. It's not reliable without foreknowledge.

 

You get a singificant boost to accuracy when wielding a single weapon, and the talent further boosts your damage by reducing your grazes. I made a 1 handed fighter with a mace that was actually pretty good. It wasn't the best build, but it was workable. Very reliable damage and hit rate. Actually had a 50% hit/crit ratio. 2h was superior, so was sword and board. However, 1h worked and I could see the value in it.

 

All 1h weapons with an on crit effect will be incredible. Just with an on crit: prone effect, any 1h weapon enchanted with accuracy and high quality... you're looking at something that keeps everyone the wielder fights on their back the entire fight.

 

I imagine 1h weapon builds will end up focused around their weapons in a non-traditional way. It's not about the damage, it's about the utility. Whatever one has the best on crit effect, or if any have an on hit effect, they will be outstanding.

[Lephys]

It's not solely about the damage, no, but it's gotta be considered. What I'm really thinking of is offensive utility. There's no point in giving something up for less-than-that-something (in general... damage is not going to be EQUALLY as useful as Deflection, for example).

 

Keep in mind, by choosing the 1H fighting style talent, you're not just foregoing the other fighting styles you could've chosen... you're foregoing an entire hand's worth of weapon/shield. Simply using no fighting style, and equipping a small shield or second weapon gives you great bonuses. Then, you can take a talent for either to get even more bonuses. What do you get for using only 1 weapon? More probable damage (Accuracy's gonna give you statistically more hits and crits). With a 2-handed weapon, you already get better base damage (albeit at the cost of attack speed, so that's at least balanced conceptually), but then, you get more guaranteed damage (the equivalent of some Accuracy without the uncertainty) if you use the 2H fighting style.

 

See, a 2-handed weapon accounts for the fact that you're not getting to use your other hand for anything else. But, a 1-handed weapon just kinda shrugs at your other hand. The only thing preventing you from equipping something in that other hand is "this bonus is totally worth it in some capacity." I don't care if it's not damage-centric, but, Accuracy IS about damage, for the most part.

 

I agree about weapon effects being something to differentiate, though. Maybe that's it? Maybe the 1H style could offer boosted weapon effects? Be it on all hits, or just crits, or whatever is decided. That would make them pretty nice, though. With that 1H weapon and fighting style, you give up a shield or second weapon, so you're dealing less damage, but you're using all that extra control and precision you've got (maybe it still gets an accuracy bonus of however many points wouldn't be ridiculous) to inflict terrible effects on the foe more often (or every time? *shrug*).

Edited March 4, 2015 by Lephys

[Sensuki]

However, 1h worked and I could see the value in it.

 

I flat out disagree here. The numbers alone are enough to realize that it is signficantly outclassed by 2H and Dual Wield. On top of that - Single Weapon Style is a bad talent, as it's a random chance, it does not change the graze percent to 15 from 35. It's 20% of 35, which is 7% - but it's not equal to +7 Accuracy, because it only grants +50% damage increase, and does not reduce miss chance. Not sure what the effective accuracy equivalent would be but it would be like maybe +4 or so at ACC-DEF = 0.

 

Two Handed Style gives a +10% damage boost all the time, providing you deal damage. Two Weapon style gives +20% recovery increase, which is pretty significant. Sword and Shield style (the talent) is good, but I don't think the weapon style (not the talent) is that great, and it's very inflexible compared to the other builds.

 

There may be extreme cases where 1H style is okay - and those cases are probably in path of the damned, where the enemy defenses are higher, but on normal/easy/hard and in most scenarios it's an inferior style and talent compared to the others.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Sensuki

[Lychnidos]

Did they increased the chance of the Single Weapon Style talent to trigger when the graze range was reduced, or was it always 20%?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Lychnidos

[Luckmann]

Did they increased the chance of the Single Weapon Style talent to trigger when the graze range was reduced, or was it always 20%?

 

It's 20% in both 392 and 435 at least. I checked, just the other day.

[Sock]

 

However, 1h worked and I could see the value in it.

 

I flat out disagree here. The numbers alone are enough to realize that it is signficantly outclassed by 2H and Dual Wield. On top of that - Single Weapon Style is a bad talent, as it's a random chance, it does not change the graze percent to 15 from 35. It's 20% of 35, which is 7% - but it's not equal to +7 Accuracy, because it only grants +50% damage increase, and does not reduce miss chance. Not sure what the effective accuracy equivalent would be but it would be like maybe +4 or so at ACC-DEF = 0.

 

Two Handed Style gives a +10% damage boost all the time, providing you deal damage. Two Weapon style gives +20% recovery increase, which is pretty significant. Sword and Shield style (the talent) is good, but I don't think the weapon style (not the talent) is that great, and it's very inflexible compared to the other builds.

 

There may be extreme cases where 1H style is okay - and those cases are probably in path of the damned, where the enemy defenses are higher, but on normal/easy/hard and in most scenarios it's an inferior style and talent compared to the others.

 

 

You're also looking at it in a different way than I am.

 

I don't look at 1h style as being a DPS style, like dual wield and 2h is. 1H style is one that significantly benefits any class that relies on crits, and in the scenario I described earlier... any 1h wielder using a weapon with an on crit: prone effect will, basically, have unlimited knock downs that trigger frequently. I've used the greatsword and pike in BB, and I've seen a 15 second prone effect from a crit with the greatsword.

 

It would be reliable knock downs. You're trading DPS for CC, but it's entirely reliant on the weapons you have. If you don't have that kind of weapon, then yes, 1H isn't very useful.

 

I also don't know what other on crit effects there might be, but thinking that there might be something with increased damage doesn't seem unrealistic.

[Lychnidos]

 

Did they increased the chance of the Single Weapon Style talent to trigger when the graze range was reduced, or was it always 20%?

 

It's 20% in both 392 and 435 at least. I checked, just the other day.

 

 

So, the talent received a 20-25% indirect nerf. The chance needs to be increased to 25-26%, to be equally useful as in previous versions, but even then people were saying it was weak.

[Sensuki]

You're also looking at it in a different way than I am.

 

I don't look at 1h style as being a DPS style, like dual wield and 2h is. 1H style is one that significantly benefits any class that relies on crits, and in the scenario I described earlier... any 1h wielder using a weapon with an on crit: prone effect will, basically, have unlimited knock downs that trigger frequently. I've used the greatsword and pike in BB, and I've seen a 15 second prone effect from a crit with the greatsword.

 

It would be reliable knock downs. You're trading DPS for CC, but it's entirely reliant on the weapons you have. If you don't have that kind of weapon, then yes, 1H isn't very useful.

 

I also don't know what other on crit effects there might be, but thinking that there might be something with increased damage doesn't seem unrealistic.

The difference between 1H and 2H is 10 Accuracy, that's a max of +10% crit chance. One-handed style (the talent) does not grant anything to crits.

 

The status afflictions on crits are a chance, I believe - I'm not sure what the chance is, but I can check in the editor.

 

If there are any 1H weapons that inflict those status effects, I'm going to summon one tonight and try it. Regardless of the horrible numbers, I don't think it's going to be as good as using a 2Her with the same enchantment (or two weapons).

 

If ACC-DEF -5 or less, you are going to have 0% chance to crit, and 0% chance to cause those status effects, too.

[Sock]

Really, to me, I can see a Hearth Orlan with a 1h weapon that provides an on crit effect to be deadly.

 

Of course, right now Hearth Orlans are bugged and crit waaaaaay more than they should, so testing it wouldn't be possible right now.

[Luckmann]

As it stands, I could easily see the +10 to Accuracy being changed to +20 to Accuracy when wielding only a one-handed weapon, but speaking specifically about the Talent meant to support Dueling, I'm really a fan of the idea to:

• Up the Graze-to-Hit to 40% (from 20%)
• Either reducing remaining recovery time every time the wielder manages to deflect a blow, or adding a Hit-to-Graze modifier on incoming attacks.

Would have the potential to make Dueling an interesting choice. While we're on the topic, though, I must say that a flat +10% and nothing else from the Two-Handed Weapon Wielder Talent is extremely boring. It works and it arguably works well, but it's really, really dull.

 

Really, to me, I can see a Hearth Orlan with a 1h weapon that provides an on crit effect to be deadly.

 

Of course, right now Hearth Orlans are bugged and crit waaaaaay more than they should, so testing it wouldn't be possible right now.

 

Hearth Orlans making good use of Dueling still wouldn't be a good argument for saying that it's fine, though. The mechanics themselves need to be solid and balanced, no matter class or race.

[Sensuki]

Really, to me, I can see a Hearth Orlan with a 1h weapon that provides an on crit effect to be deadly.

 

Of course, right now Hearth Orlans are bugged and crit waaaaaay more than they should, so testing it wouldn't be possible right now.

 

Josh said Minor Threat has been fixed internally, but I'm not sure if that means that it's completely fixed or just the crit proccing to often is fixed (as there's two bugs with it)

 

And also one race with one build is a super narrow application for a weapon style and a talent to be viable. That is why I am fighting for broader application of both sword and shield and single weapon style.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sock]

 

You're also looking at it in a different way than I am.

 

I don't look at 1h style as being a DPS style, like dual wield and 2h is. 1H style is one that significantly benefits any class that relies on crits, and in the scenario I described earlier... any 1h wielder using a weapon with an on crit: prone effect will, basically, have unlimited knock downs that trigger frequently. I've used the greatsword and pike in BB, and I've seen a 15 second prone effect from a crit with the greatsword.

 

It would be reliable knock downs. You're trading DPS for CC, but it's entirely reliant on the weapons you have. If you don't have that kind of weapon, then yes, 1H isn't very useful.

 

I also don't know what other on crit effects there might be, but thinking that there might be something with increased damage doesn't seem unrealistic.

The difference between 1H and 2H is 10 Accuracy, that's a max of +10% crit chance. One-handed style (the talent) does not grant anything to crits.

 

The status afflictions on crits are a chance, I believe - I'm not sure what the chance is, but I can check in the editor.

 

If there are any 1H weapons that inflict those status effects, I'm going to summon one tonight and try it. Regardless of the horrible numbers, I don't think it's going to be as good as using a 2Her with the same enchantment (or two weapons).

 

If ACC-DEF -5 or less, you are going to have 0% chance to crit, and 0% chance to cause those status effects, too.

 

 

Going by the wiki, there's a hatchet and a warhammer that can both cause stun on crit. The hatchet includes a +20% bonus to attack speed, too, so it might be the most powerful one.

[Sensuki]

Cool I'll summon both of them tonight and try them out.

[SergeantHans]

What would be cool is if they for the "duelist" style added 1on1 abilities for the talent.

 

For instance a reversed Minor threat that increased crits if no other ally attacks the same target and also a crit to graze/hit to graze only against hits of the current target.

 

Would definately niche the style.

 

Also i guess they should change the bonus for just equiping a 1h weapon back to +15 

[Sensuki]

There is no longer a hatchet with a stun, but Godsanthunyr (War Hammer) has a stun on crit, and it rolls to attack like a normal attack - so chances are that if you crit, you stun - which is quite strong.

1H style will have up to a 10% better chance to have that effect depending on the ACC-DEF situation. So if you have that particular weapon, you might want to 1H it - but most other 1H weapons you'll want to dual wield instead.

[Sock]

Yeah, and since that's the most powerful 1H weapon that I saw, I imagine it's going to spawn in a set location. Possibly a shop, but likely in the hands of some enemy in the main plot line. Personally, I think it is in a Celestial Thunder type location. The name is too similar to be a coincidence. Either way, it will have a set location and metaknowledge will let you plan for it in future runs.

 

Make a rogue and give them 1H style, turning grazes into hits. Give them dirty fighting, turning hits into crits. Give them vicious fighting, further turning hits into crits. Hearth Orlan, even further turning hits into crits.

 

Take penetrating blows, and now look at what you have:

 

Very high chance to crit, causing a stun, unlocking sneak attacks, coupled with penetration and best of pierce/crush (the two best damage types by far).

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sock

[Sensuki]

You can't turn a graze into a crit, an attack resolution can only be converted once, not twice.

[Sock]

You're right. That just boosts it at the low end.

 

1H style, as a talent, is worthless. The base +10 accuracy is way better than the talent.

[Sensuki]

I'm trying to make the case to Josh on SA, but worst comes to worst, I can mod in changes.

[Luckmann]

You're right. That just boosts it at the low end.

 

1H style, as a talent, is worthless. The base +10 accuracy is way better than the talent.

 

And that base +10 Accuracy isn't really stellar to begin with.

[Lephys]

'Cause it's still that versus whatever you could get from two weapons, a weapon-and-shield, OR a two-hander. 8P

[speed]

 Question....as much as i love the environment art and pretty much everything else about poe, i was wondering, to those who have access to the beta:

How do the slightly low poly, low res texture clad 3D models with no anti-aliasing and jagged edges, look against the perfectly smooth, almost photo-realistic backgrounds?

 

Can't make out much from youtube videos, but even with the lighting i always seem to get the impression that there's a slight discrepancy between the way the characters are lit and the ambient lighting applied to the environments. Especially at night, it looks like there are some extra bright lights shining down on the characters, so much so that they appear to be highlighted.

 

I recall reading somewhere that as of version 435, the ambient maps ang lighting have been tweaked? And any kind of anti-aliasing options available for the 3D stuff?