Combat Animation

[Baladas]

Hello there.

 

I just watched the hour long video of Pillars of Eternity game play on Twitch.

The game looks exiting, but to be honest the combat animation, for a game of this day and age, kickstarter or not, looks really bad.

The characters stand around being hit, but there is no real "oomph" to the connections.

Also the animations them self no at about 2. Enemy swings, then swings again in the same way, with no flow between the start and end of the swing, sometimes the enemy will swing in one other way, but that's about it.

This is the same for the party members.

Very lackluster.

The animations remind me of Age of Empires one. Thats how old and out of date they seem.

Please do something about this before release, even if it means delaying the game.

I am speaking as a player of  CRPG's since the time of the Mega Drive and played both Baldurs Gates and Planescape. 

 

 

[BlueLion]

This won't be changed.

Edited January 27, 2015 by BlueLion

[illathid]

I like this system. It's better than the NWN1/KOTOR system where you had false swings and hits that didn't match what was actually happening in the combat.

[Baladas]

I like this system. It's better than the NWN1/KOTOR system where you had false swings and hits that didn't match what was actually happening in the combat.

But that's exactly what happens in this video as well, except with bad animations with about two frames and two varieties. Nothing really connects and there seems to be no real impact. DAO had better animations.

[Baladas]

This is what the combat animation reminds me of at the moment.

 

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140110234128/runescape/images/2/2e/Turmoil.gif

 

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140110230455/runescape/images/f/f5/Sap_Ranger.gif

Edited January 27, 2015 by Baladas

[teknoman2]

 

I like this system. It's better than the NWN1/KOTOR system where you had false swings and hits that didn't match what was actually happening in the combat.

But that's exactly what happens in this video as well, except with bad animations with about two frames and two varieties. Nothing really connects and there seems to be no real impact. DAO had better animations.

 

nope, here animations play in sync with attack rolls

[Baladas]

 

 

I like this system. It's better than the NWN1/KOTOR system where you had false swings and hits that didn't match what was actually happening in the combat.

But that's exactly what happens in this video as well, except with bad animations with about two frames and two varieties. Nothing really connects and there seems to be no real impact. DAO had better animations.

 

nope, here animations play in sync with attack rolls

 

 Well it does not look like it. Sorry.

[Rhaeg]

I can agree with OP that combat animations are looking a bit outdated. As BlueLion said though, don't expect any improvements on this before release - these things just cannot be changed overnight. Apart from the lovely looking levels themselves, which IMO are incredibly beautiful works of art, graphics do not belong to this game's strong selling points. A game like Dragon Age: Inquisition does a better job at that, but that is not a very honest comparison in many respects (like: budget, technology used, etc.). Everyone needs to decide for themselves if they are able to look past the lesser bits to enjoy the stronger parts of this game (story telling, character creation options, ... ). C'est la vie

[Baladas]

I can agree with OP that combat animations are looking a bit outdated. As BlueLion said though, don't expect any improvements on this before release - these things just cannot be changed overnight. Apart from the lovely looking levels themselves, which IMO are incredibly beautiful works of art, graphics do not belong to this game's strong selling points. A game like Dragon Age: Inquisition does a better job at that, but that is not a very honest comparison in many respects (like: budget, technology used, etc.). Everyone needs to decide for themselves if they are able to look past the lesser bits to enjoy the stronger parts of this game (story telling, character creation options, ... ). C'est la vie

The graphics themselves are fine, I like the oldschool look. I am playing Wasteland 2 now and think it is great, but combat animations are not so vital in turn based combat.

 

I like the reloading animations in this game (POE) but I just feel that the attack animations fall short. Especially the Zombies. "Left arm back, swing arm forward." Repeat "Right arm side. swing arm sideways" Repeat. No variation.

 

Also there is no impact to the hits. One thing I loved about Planescape was that your hits were visceral, and the critical hit screen shake was great. Here its like nothing really feels like it makes any contact with the enemy, or the enemy with the party.

 

At least that could be looked into? Combat should feel like you are actually in combat, not just clicking buttons till a sprite goes down.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

quite honestly the animations in this game are almost the worst I've seen in years, and I feel so very bad for saying that. I REALLY want to like the game, but I don't understand the disconnect from their team. They really feel like there's not any oomph to hit's, the swing's don't seem to convey any weight, and it's like a buncha rockem sockem robots in fights. Every single unity demo I've seen from version like 3.5 on looks better. Even a game made by 2 brothers on 10k budget using unity has better animations, and they're doing much more complicated moves. I'm so confused. Even the stock one's that come for free are better. I think what particularly intrigues me is this is the result after 2 yrs or more. I could understand after a few months, but something got lost in translation. Where did the extra $ we raised go to? I feel like they screwed the animation guy over bad. He's probably one guy working on a 7 year old machine on 4 gb of ram. Help the fellah out Obsidian, you have to take a little more pride in your work guys, really. I feel so bad for him. I feel like they must have spent a million dollars just on art, but you can polish a turd, and it's still a turd. The animations add to the mechanic's feeling clumsy and can be quite immersion breaking. All that to say, I've seen bigger miracles happen. I have faith the final product won't stink too bad!

[BrainMuncher]

What exactly is wrong with the animations? They look OK to me.

Are you guys basing your thoughts on looking at the game in slow mode or something?

 

Honestly I can't really see what you are getting at, can you guys give an example gif or something of what you are talking about?

 

 

Maybe you're referring to the lack of flourish in the attacks? I mean if a character is going to stab with a dagger, he just gets on with it and does the stab. I like it that way though, as opposed to some other games where he might do a little pirouette first or a ninja roll or something.

[Luckmann]

What exactly is wrong with the animations? They look OK to me.

Are you guys basing your thoughts on looking at the game in slow mode or something?

 

Honestly I can't really see what you are getting at, can you guys give an example gif or something of what you are talking about?

 

Maybe you're referring to the lack of flourish in the attacks? I mean if a character is going to stab with a dagger, he just gets on with it and does the stab. I like it that way though, as opposed to some other games where he might do a little pirouette first or a ninja roll or something.

 

Also known as the Darth Maul Dance School of Melee Combat.

[Jarmo]

I'd have liked a more varied animations with natural flow between attacks, blocks and such. But no.

 

Now I'm hoping all actions even have an animation.

No disengagement attack where the attacker just stands like a statue and the attacked gets damage.

[Endrosz]

Combat should feel like you are actually in combat, not just clicking buttons till a sprite goes down.

 

You mean, you want to:

- smell the sweat and blood

- see guts spilling out

- hear death cries

And so on.

 

If you want to feel like you're actually in combat, go join a historical fighting club. Warning: lots of bruises upcoming, it gives you that realness you crave. I never joined such a club, but a friend of mine did, and in our weekly game sessions he was often complaining about the sores he received, sometimes inflicted on himself. He hated nunchaku training, I remember that.

 

In a computer game, the most immersive combat experience is in first-person view. Especially with VR technology like Oculus Rift. An isometric third-person view is never going to give you proper thrills.

 

That said, I would welcome upgrades to combat animations, like what they did with the monk's different attack patterns (do you know about those?), but it's fine. It'll do for a first offering, and probably get better in the later games.

[Baladas]

 

Combat should feel like you are actually in combat, not just clicking buttons till a sprite goes down.

 

You mean, you want to:

- smell the sweat and blood

- see guts spilling out

- hear death cries

And so on.

 

If you want to feel like you're actually in combat, go join a historical fighting club. Warning: lots of bruises upcoming, it gives you that realness you crave. I never joined such a club, but a friend of mine did, and in our weekly game sessions he was often complaining about the sores he received, sometimes inflicted on himself. He hated nunchaku training, I remember that.

 

In a computer game, the most immersive combat experience is in first-person view. Especially with VR technology like Oculus Rift. An isometric third-person view is never going to give you proper thrills.

 

That said, I would welcome upgrades to combat animations, like what they did with the monk's different attack patterns (do you know about those?), but it's fine. It'll do for a first offering, and probably get better in the later games.

 

Sarcasm much?

 

Planescape Torment made me feel like I was in combat, it was immersive and that game is ancient compared to this one.

 

Starcraft 2 also made me feel that way. The combat had more "omph" and better collision detection.

 

Falcon and Jamro understand exactly what I am talking about by their comments.

 

There is no feeling that you are in combat at all. I'm not asking for first person immersion, nor real life historical fighting clubs (go figure), I'm asking for a little bit of a feeling like I am in combat.

 

The video makes me think I am not going to get even a sniff of that in this game. Less immersion, in fact, than games much older in the same genre. Such as, Planescape Torment and even Baldurs Gate 1 & 2. In those games it felt like, or if you were watching, looked like, hits connected.

 

Some parry, block, recoil, variety of attack, animation is not much to ask for.

 

But no, we got 2 swing Zombies and Goblins that looks like Age of Empires one, but with updated graphics.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Baladas

[Baladas]

I'd have liked a more varied animations with natural flow between attacks, blocks and such. But no.

 

Now I'm hoping all actions even have an animation.

No disengagement attack where the attacker just stands like a statue and the attacked gets damage.

 

"No disengagement attack where the attacker just stands like a statue and the attacked gets damage."

 

This is pretty much one of the main issues. I was not sure how to word it but Jarmo has put it nicely.

 

When someone gets hit, they stand there and don't react. And because there seems to be long pauses between attacks, (I'm assuming that the dice rolls?) the enemy or PC stands still doing nothing in combat for a long time.

 

There is no visible recoil or evasion, and when they attack we get a selection of two whole different animations, that don't seem to flow or connect with any impact.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

I'm not expecting a lot really, certainly not expecting Uncharted level animations. I think the best animation I've seen in game is the way the lion's run, but I think part of the problem for the combat animations that they didn't have to worry about when they initially created them are the bulky armors and items which would naturally limit the range of motion in combat that came into development later so they probably didn't anticipate how they would work. I can buy into that, however certain little thing's would make a big difference in selling the attacks. One of which would be foot placement and the # of steps it would take to swing certain weapons, also momentum in swings, anticipation so when they swing they swing way back especially for a powerful strike and then follow through. Also certain weapons should take longer to swing. I think maybe why I'm being so critical on my perception is the rules they have put into the world. They've included real historical types of content. The weapons are authentic, the castles and environments, there are real creatures like lions, bears, and giant beetles from Texas! I think they did a pretty good job on the ranged weapon reloading animation, and to be completely fair, I'm basing my opinion on watching other people play as I'm not in the beta. However as some have already touched on, there doesn't seem to be many animations or varied animations for crit's or impact's. If I get hit by a troll, vs a goblin I think it should really be noticeable.

[Failion]

The funny thing about these animation threads that pop up on every game. People don't even begin to think about the technical aspect involved in making them. The limitations of game engine or the giant hurdle animators got to learn what works and what doesn't. I doubt ****ing 8 gigs of ram on a animators computer is what keeping the animations from being naruto shipudden ninja storm or whatever. Maybe if there a sequel obsidians team works out better animations but now I think the games set in stone.

 

 

[Quadrone]

He's probably one guy working on a 7 year old machine on 4 gb of ram. Help the fellah out Obsidian, you have to take a little more pride in your work guys, really. I feel so bad for him. I feel like they must have spent a million dollars just on art, but you can polish a turd, and it's still a turd. The animations add to the mechanic's feeling clumsy and can be quite immersion breaking.

 

I doubt it has anything to do with that. It just a matter of what was promised, time and manpower. The Kickstarter was for a BG/IWD/PS:T type game and the animations are on par/better to what those games had. Above that is stuff you do only if you have time to spare. PoE is a large game, considering the small amount of money OE has to work with, so there is likely always something left to improve or fix. You have to make cuts somewhere.

Animations are one such thing. I think I said it before in another thread but considering the amount of weapon types, fighting styles and body sizes making up unique attack/block/doge animations for each variation is a huge amount of work.

[Kal Adan]

There are moments, when pauses between characters' actions are very long and it looks weird when you see the whole team "pause", because it just happened that all are in state between their attacks. Baldur's Gate did it right, because the "fake" attacks added to the flow. You know, something was happening. What I wonder is if there will be slider for "combat speed". This would probably solve my problem with long-ish delay between attacks. Especially when we also have an option to play in slow motion. It's not a game-killer by any means, but makes combat look not smooth.

[Quetzalcoatl]

quite honestly the animations in this game are almost the worst I've seen in years, and I feel so very bad for saying that. I REALLY want to like the game, but I don't understand the disconnect from their team.

If the animations are literally preventing you from liking the entire game, you're probably not the target audience.

 

I don't understand the disappointment with the animations. They look like an improved version of the Infinity Engine animations which is all anyone could ask for and all the budget could allow for.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Quetzalcoatl

[Mazisky]

I think that animations are decent for this kind of game, my only concern is about the fact they're too fast.

 

Actually slow mode should be normal mode.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Mazisky

[Kal Adan]

Just some theory crafting for the future of combat design:

 

If one attack takes 4 seconds total (for normal weapon, shield and heavy armor) and actual attack animation takes only 1 it means hero is idle more than he's actually fighting (3 seconds out of 4) when in combat. My proposition would be slowing down the attack animation itself. Animation would cover some time of the recovery phase (when character stands idle) and make it look like character is more active than (s)he really is.

 

Or - more complicated solution - there should be two animations when attacking from the start: the actual attack and post-attack animation, where weapon user is bringing his gear to the state where attack animation is supposed to happen. Think Dark Souls: when you had insufficient stats to handle a weapon your character spent more time showing you how problematic it was for him to swing his weapon around. That's very important, because recovery penalty could be modeled into that in case if it's a very long recovery (like 9 seconds).

[illathid]

There are moments, when pauses between characters' actions are very long and it looks weird when you see the whole team "pause", because it just happened that all are in state between their attacks. Baldur's Gate did it right, because the "fake" attacks added to the flow. You know, something was happening. What I wonder is if there will be slider for "combat speed". This would probably solve my problem with long-ish delay between attacks. Especially when we also have an option to play in slow motion. It's not a game-killer by any means, but makes combat look not smooth.

As I said earlier in thread, Please no. I dispise the false attack animations. It makes it harder to understand what's actually occurring in combat.

[Lephys]

^ False attack animations are definitely not the way to go. Honestly, off the top of my head, I would just make standard attacks happen more frequently, and tweak the numbers to whatever general DPS I had intended. What I mean is, if I wanted daggers to be able to dish out roughly 100 damage in 10 seconds, and they currently attack every 3 seconds, then I'd just make them attack every 1 second and deal 10 damage, instead of dealing 33 damage every 3 seconds.

 

Also, I would make the recovery time different for standard attacks than for spells/abilities. So, maybe standard attack recovery time is 2 seconds (for example... maybe that's too slow, *shrug*), and that gets modified by your weapon (Daggers would reduce it, a greatsword would increase it). Then, anything that affected your recovery time (like armor, etc.) would still work exactly the same. If it increased recovery time by 50%, then your daggers would be up to 1.5 seconds between attacks, and your 4-second spell would be up to 6 seconds of recovery time. Etc.

 

I'm pretty sure PoE already has different recovery times for short/med/long spells/abilities, so I don't know why there's this strange "attacks have to be really slow and ULTRA meaningful on every single attack" stigma around for RPGs, still. Especially in a game with misses AND grazes. Someone with two daggers should be constantly attempting to tear you up, and each individual attack shouldn't be that threatening, really. But, more the ongoing assault should be what you're worried about. How long you're allowing them to attack you, and how many times you risk getting hit or critted, as opposed to grazed or missed, etc. And that doesn't mean individual hits don't matter. It just means that, you're not waiting for one potentially huge/dire hit every time someone simply swings a weapon at you.

 

TL;DR version -- just because spells and abilities are slower/less frequent doesn't mean that someone trying to cut you with a knife should be slowed down to match it.