PAX South 2015 live thread

[Starwars]

 

Of course it's different. A publisher can dictate what they want to see and OEI has to follow. The community cannot. A publisher can dictate what the devs show *us*. We cannot dictate what OEI shows *us*. OEI is in *charge* of their project, not a publisher and most definitely not us. The difference is that now OEI can read the fan-discussions on forums (and partake if they wish) and change things in their game depending on *our* feedback and not the publishers, if they choose.

 

It's not an investment on our part, it's donating towards a game that will hopefully please us. We partake in a gamble when we donate to kickstarter. There are no contracts. The deal is not to have discussions with the devs, to be armchair developers or that everything is open and that your favorite developer will discuss every single thing with some random dude on the internet. You're not entitled to any of these things.

 

OEI have posted a truckload of updates (more than most kickstarters I might add), have changed things in the actual game based on feedback from these forums (some fairly big things to, like the removal of the durability system), based on feedback from the backer beta (again, not exactly par for the course when dealing with a publisher) etc etc. But no, they are the devil because Josh doesn't post here (much) and Chris doesn't really post anywhere afaik.

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing. There's no publisher on earth that would have stopped Chris Avellone from coming on here to discuss dialogue mechanics, or NPC interaction depth (for example).

 

The shackles here are, and have always been, self imposed. So it's disingenuous for him to peddle the notion that this 'freedom' to engage the fans is anything new, or unique thanks to the kickstarter model.

 

 

I'd say that, for Obsidian (who've only worked with publishers in the past), it's quite new to open up their dev process to the fans like they have done, and implement actual changes in the game based on feedback from the fans. That's an openess with the fans they have not done before and in fact would've been impossible before

 

I don't think he means that posting on forums is some new-found freedom. The marketing director guy even says so.

[Guest Matt Sheets]

There's plenty of devs that are like me.  I don't post often, but I read the majority of the forums.  I browse through the threads, bring up topics to others developers, but generally avoid posting for various reasons.  Even if we don't post, there's still involvement (albeit one-sided) between us and backers.

[Blarghagh]

+1 to Leferd. Oh god, I remember that guy who kept going on and on and on about the Basilisk... my precious canon! I think the lack of devs posting may have something to do with hostility (the drop in activity roughly coincided with those nasty flamewars regarding kill xp a while ago) but mostly, it's because it's crunch time.

 

(Although honestly, I don't like posting here myself either. I read a lot, but because I have to. I only see the same angry voices snarking at each other and making it personal over and over, it's not interesting nor conductive to good debate.)

 

You guys act like they were never around. Sawyer and others posted, discussed and answered questions quite frequently here before - much more than I'm used to from other developers, and much more than they did for any of their other games. But it's crunch time now, and for a developer that means pretty much everything is locked in - especially for a huge game like this. The worst imbalances and bugs that you guys pick up will be read about and discussed quickly internally but there's probably not going to be time for anything else.

 

Regarding "self-imposed" shackles, publishers usually insist on NDA's and have to okay all info releases, even on message boards. Trust me, I've had to deal with game publishers first hand. Avellone was probably already stretching it back then when he was posting about KotOR 2.

[Sarex]

There's plenty of devs that are like me.  I don't post often, but I read the majority of the forums.  I browse through the threads, bring up topics to others developers, but generally avoid posting for various reasons.  Even if we don't post, there's still involvement (albeit one-sided) between us and backers.

 

But that's always there, how does the KS change it?

[Guest Matt Sheets]

 

There's plenty of devs that are like me.  I don't post often, but I read the majority of the forums.  I browse through the threads, bring up topics to others developers, but generally avoid posting for various reasons.  Even if we don't post, there's still involvement (albeit one-sided) between us and backers.

 

But that's always there, how does the KS change it?

 

 

From my experience in QA not at Obsidian, we never had contact with fans.  We weren't allowed to post to forums and discuss anything, or take feedback.  It was entirely hands-off and dealt through Marketing only.

[Stun]

I'd say that, for Obsidian (who've only worked with publishers in the past), it's quite new to open up their dev process to the fans like they have done, and implement actual changes in the game based on feedback from the fans. That's an openess with the fans they have not done before and in fact would've been impossible before

This is simply untrue, especially when we're talking about the guys who make up Obsidian.

 

I was *there* on the Black Isle/Interplay forums when they were developing Icewind Dale 2. I was *part* of the community that begged Josh & Co. to implement Deity-based Cleric domains (which they ended up putting in at the last minute thanks to our forum feedback, for example).

 

There's very little that's truly new here, and NOTHING has changed in Chris Avellone's public communication.... except maybe he's communicating even LESS now.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Sarex]

+1 to Leferd. Oh god, I remember that guy who kept going on and on and on about the Basilisk... my precious canon! I think the lack of devs posting may have something to do with hostility (the drop in activity roughly coincided with those nasty flamewars regarding kill xp a while ago) but mostly, it's because it's crunch time.

 

(Although honestly, I don't like posting here myself either. I read a lot, but because I have to. I only see the same angry voices snarking at each other and making it personal over and over, it's not interesting nor conductive to good debate.)

 

You guys act like they were never around. Sawyer and others posted, discussed and answered questions quite frequently here before - much more than I'm used to from other developers, and much more than they did for any of their other games. But it's crunch time now, and for a developer that means pretty much everything is locked in - especially for a huge game like this. The worst imbalances and bugs that you guys pick up will be read about and discussed quickly internally but there's probably not going to be time for anything else.

 

Regarding "self-imposed" shackles, publishers usually insist on NDA's and have to okay all info releases, even on message boards. Trust me, I've had to deal with game publishers first hand. Avellone was probably already stretching it back then when he was posting about KotOR 2.

 

We are usually "toxic" (I don't think you guys relay know what toxic is) towards each other. Very rarely are we outright hostile towards the devs, we called them out on their bull**** yes, but we are not talking **** just for the sake of it. No one likes to hear someone tell them they are wrong, but in the end we giving our time to make the game better, some more then others, but still. I think criticism is much more useful then blind praise.

 

There are exceptions I admit, but I haven't seen those people post in a while.

 

 

From my experience in QA not at Obsidian, we never had contact with fans.  We weren't allowed to post to forums and discuss anything, or take feedback.  It was entirely hands-off and dealt through Marketing only.

 

I get that, I really do (work in QA and have NDAs of my own), but still if you chose not to exercise those freedoms then you might as well not have them.

[Guest Matt Sheets]

I get that, I really do (work in QA and have NDAs of my own), but still if you chose not to exercise those freedoms then you might as well not have them.

 

 

A KS project gives the opening to devs to interact with backers.  All I'm saying is that just because they don't post frequently, doesn't mean that they aren't listening to feedback and discussing it.

[Starwars]

 

I'd say that, for Obsidian (who've only worked with publishers in the past), it's quite new to open up their dev process to the fans like they have done, and implement actual changes in the game based on feedback from the fans. That's an openess with the fans they have not done before and in fact would've been impossible before

This is simply untrue, especially when we're talking about the guys who make up Obsidian.

 

I was *there* on the Black Isle/Interplay forums when they were developing Icewind Dale 2. I was *part* of the community that begged Josh & Co. to implement Deity-based Cleric domains (which they ended up putting in at the last minute thanks to our forum feedback, for example).

 

There's very little that's truly new here, and NOTHING has changed in Chris Avellone's public communication.... except maybe he's communicating even LESS now.

 

 

I'm happy for you. That was also 15 or so years ago (I think?) under a different developer/publisher. I'm not saying that fan interactions are new, I'm not saying that all community feedback in the past has been useless (there were good interactions during NWN2 as well where they ended up integrating a mod into the actual game amongst other things). But opening up the dev process from day one and taking into account feedback from day one is new for them. Taking forum feedback and discussing it internally in the dev-team and deciding whether to change, or not change, something without getting an OK from the publisher is new. THAT'S the difference. THEY, the developer, make the final call on what feedback to absorb into the game and what to not absorb. And that's what I think Avellone is referring to.

I'm definitely not saying that every publisher in the world will put strict chains on the developer, there are in fact *good* publishers also. Interplay was, at least before Herve took over. By gamers, for gamers, felt pretty true.

 

I'm sorry man, but nothing about the kickstarter requires devs to post here. Forum interaction was never a thing on the kickstarter project, getting Chris Avellone here to talk about romances was never a thing, opening up the dev process however, was. And Avellone is one of the most prolific devs there are. Going to conventions, writing for various projects (and writing novellas for them to boot), he answers e-mails and twitter questions, he's in a million different interviews and I think he's the creative lead on an unannounced project now if I understand things correctly, he's creative director and one of the owners for Obsidian entertainment.

Yet he just doesn't do enough for you, no, he should damn well get on this forum and post here as well.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Starwars

[Leferd]

 

I'd say that, for Obsidian (who've only worked with publishers in the past), it's quite new to open up their dev process to the fans like they have done, and implement actual changes in the game based on feedback from the fans. That's an openess with the fans they have not done before and in fact would've been impossible before

This is simply untrue, especially when we're talking about the guys who make up Obsidian.

 

I was *there* on the Black Isle/Interplay forums when they were developing Icewind Dale 2. I was *part* of the community that begged Josh & Co. to implement Deity-based Cleric domains (which they ended up putting in at the last minute thanks to our forum feedback, for example).

 

There's very little that's truly new here, and NOTHING has changed in Chris Avellone's public communication.... except maybe he's communicating even LESS now.

 

 

I was there too Yrkoon. Josh was pretty active back then, but it's not like Josh and Obsidian as a whole are shut ins and that they are not taking our feedback and doing with it as they wish. 

[Blarghagh]

 

+1 to Leferd. Oh god, I remember that guy who kept going on and on and on about the Basilisk... my precious canon! I think the lack of devs posting may have something to do with hostility (the drop in activity roughly coincided with those nasty flamewars regarding kill xp a while ago) but mostly, it's because it's crunch time.

 

(Although honestly, I don't like posting here myself either. I read a lot, but because I have to. I only see the same angry voices snarking at each other and making it personal over and over, it's not interesting nor conductive to good debate.)

 

You guys act like they were never around. Sawyer and others posted, discussed and answered questions quite frequently here before - much more than I'm used to from other developers, and much more than they did for any of their other games. But it's crunch time now, and for a developer that means pretty much everything is locked in - especially for a huge game like this. The worst imbalances and bugs that you guys pick up will be read about and discussed quickly internally but there's probably not going to be time for anything else.

 

Regarding "self-imposed" shackles, publishers usually insist on NDA's and have to okay all info releases, even on message boards. Trust me, I've had to deal with game publishers first hand. Avellone was probably already stretching it back then when he was posting about KotOR 2.

 

We are usually "toxic" (I don't think you guys relay know what toxic is) towards each other. Very rarely are we outright hostile towards the devs, we called them out on their bull**** yes, but we are not talking **** just for the sake of it. No one likes to hear someone tell them they are wrong, but in the end we giving our time to make the game better, some more then others, but still. I think criticism is much more useful then blind praise.

 

There are exceptions I admit, but I haven't seen those people post in a while.

 

I'm confused. Are you quoting the right person? You're responding to a bunch of things I didn't say. You even focus on a word I didn't use.

[Leferd]

Referring to me then. *looks up hyperbole*

 

Fine...substitute toxic with antagonistic.

[PrimeJunta]

 

He is not referring to this community.

 

Then why did you refer to this community?

 

Because you guys keep on qq'ing that they're not here. Whereas they're quite active in other communities.

[PrimeJunta]

 

He is not referring to this community.

Aah, Mind Readers R us.

 

Got any proof that he was referring specifically to his Twitter followers and no one else?

 

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

Never said he was referring specifically to that community either.

 

Trouble is, you're pounding your fist in your usual charming and diplomatic Stun fashion about him talking about community involvement but, you state, not doing it. Which is not true. He is doing it, just not here, in this community. Ergo, he was not referring to this community. What's so hard about this to understand?

[Sarex]

A KS project gives the opening to devs to interact with backers.  All I'm saying is that just because they don't post frequently, doesn't mean that they aren't listening to feedback and discussing it.

 

I get what you are saying, but I don't agree on the silent treatment as far as forum discussions are concerned. Especially because key devs are having them elsewhere. But then again, this is nothing new, this topic has risen a few times since the KS and nothing has changed.

 

It makes a world of difference when you can defend your point of view in a discussion with the guy who is supposed to take that feedback and put it in a game. If he is certain that he is right about the decision he made then it should be easy to defend that decision in a public forum. Sure there are people who only like to whine and add nothing constructive to the discussion (and I may be one of them in the eyes of the devs) but they are all to easily ignored, there are still people who put some pretty big effort in to making this game better and they should be engaged in a discussion, I am sure that nothing but positive things would result from that.

 

Now I'm not saying that they should spend all their time here, but I'm pretty sure time could have been made since the KS for some semi-regular interactions.

 

 

I'm confused. Are you quoting the right person? You're responding to a bunch of things I didn't say. You even focus on a word I didn't use.

 

You +1ed Leferd. As for the word toxic, I got that from the flamewars you mentioned, those 2 are pretty interconnected. I should have quoted flamewars to avoid confusion.

 

As for the rest, I made no comment on it because it's not true, they have time to post elsewhere. No one is asking them to spend the whole day on the forums talking to us.

 

 

Because you guys keep on qq'ing that they're not here. Whereas they're quite active in other communities.

 

So did he mean the one or the other then? Make up your mind.

[Stun]

I'm happy for you. That was also 15 or so years ago (I think?) under a different developer/publisher. I'm not saying that fan interactions are new, I'm not saying that all community feedback in the past has been useless (there were good interactions during NWN2 as well where they ended up integrating a mod into the actual game amongst other things). But opening up the dev process from day one and taking into account feedback from day one is new for them.

We weren't talking about the development process. Nor did this discussion begin with anyone claiming that the development process for PoE isn't refreshingly open and transparent. That's YOUR goal post moving/stream of consciousness.

 

We were discussing Chris Avellone's Ironic comment that going the kickstarter route means he's been free to directly interact with the community. That is why I asked everyone else here if they've ever seen a Chris Avellone post in the PoE forums. Remember?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Blarghagh]

I'm confused. Are you quoting the right person? You're responding to a bunch of things I didn't say. You even focus on a word I didn't use.

 

You +1ed Leferd. As for the word toxic, I got that from the flamewars you mentioned, those 2 are pretty interconnected. I should have quoted flamewars to avoid confusion.

 

As for the rest, I made no comment on it because it's not true, they have time to post elsewhere. No one is asking them to spend the whole day on the forums talking to us.

 

 

Well, that was more about that it was toxic during the KotOR 2 days. It's true Feargus almost shut the forums down.

 

Wasn't aware they do post more elsewhere. Can't comment on that. I've got no horse in this race (look, no backer badge) and I'm just obliged to read stuff here. On the other hand, the few that do post elsewhere may not be indicative of the whole - what I said about crunch time is generally true in game development, from my experience anyway.

 

About the flamewars, I meant mostly the flamewars from a couple of months back about kill XP (and before that, the influx of people coming to complain about the lack of romances). Those were nasty. It's calmed down a lot now, but activity is also down and now (from my point of view) a lot of threads end up being the same people discussing each others' reading comprehension rather than the topic at hand. They aren't flamewars, but I don't consider most of them very conductive to debate either.

[Sarex]

About the flamewars, I meant mostly the flamewars from a couple of months back about kill XP (and before that, the influx of people coming to complain about the lack of romances). Those were nasty. It's calmed down a lot now, but activity is also down and now (from my point of view) a lot of threads end up being the same people discussing each others' reading comprehension rather than the topic at hand. They aren't flamewars, but I don't consider most of them very conductive to debate either.

 

Ugh, as far as I know xp threads were around since the KS, I don't even remember anymore it's all a blur now. As for the Romance I don't think I even opened one, maybe when it started on Computer and Console subforum, anyways I though it was a parody thread wasn't aware that there were flamewars going on, lol.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sarex

[Blarghagh]

I should specify, I know the kill XP debate was around before but it really exploded when George Ziets weighed in on it during an AMA. Tensions were high for a couple of weeks and the number of reports went through the roof.

 

Although I'd like to point out how priveleged you are considering we mods are not so lucky that we can just avoid the romance threads.

[Sarex]

I should specify, I know the kill XP debate was around before but it really exploded when George Ziets weighed in on it during an AMA. Tensions were high for a couple of weeks and the number of reports went through the roof.

 

Although I'd like to point out how priveleged you are considering we mods are not so lucky that we can just avoid the romance threads.

 

Ah yes, now I remember, your right it really took of when he made that statement.

 

LoL, I really wonder if any of the devs tried to read the Romance thread or were they like, "NOPE".

[Namutree]

 

LoL, I really wonder if any of the devs tried to read the Romance thread or were they like, "NOPE".

 

They were like, "NOPE".

[archangel979]

There's plenty of devs that are like me.  I don't post often, but I read the majority of the forums.  I browse through the threads, bring up topics to others developers, but generally avoid posting for various reasons.  Even if we don't post, there's still involvement (albeit one-sided) between us and backers.

QA lead, eh. I didn't know you guys read these boards :D

I hope you understand that my using word Bugsidian in some posts was not really what I think of you guys. I don't really think you guys are at NWN2 or Kotor 2 levels. It was more like how people talk about Obsidian in different places for light fun.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

There's plenty of devs that are like me.  I don't post often, but I read the majority of the forums.  I browse through the threads, bring up topics to others developers, but generally avoid posting for various reasons.  Even if we don't post, there's still involvement (albeit one-sided) between us and backers.

QA lead, eh. I didn't know you guys read these boards :D

I hope you understand that my using word Bugsidian in some posts was not really what I think of you guys. I don't really think you guys are at NWN2 or Kotor 2 levels. It was more like how people talk about Obsidian in different places for light fun.

This is a very transparent attempt at saving face.

[Flow]

"Bugsidian" is increasingly irrelevant now that we live in a world where even AAA consoles games are a buggy mess on release.

[Blarghagh]

Ain't that the truth. When I bought NWN2 on release, it wouldn't even install. It was still more playable than any AAA title Ubisoft released this year.