Could use some advice on damage reduction/mitigation/control

[Lord Gorchnik]

I will straight up admit that I am not the best at these types of games. Even back whe Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale first released I never fully grasped the intensity of the battle/gameplay system and more often that not found myself dying continously.  I would play on easy mode (if available) and only crank up the difficulty if I thought I was doing well.  Nonetheless in 1999 I got hooked on the forgotten realms setting and have been a fan of games of the similar series and style ever since.

 

I haven't played the BB since the very first iteration came out and 1 update afterwards.  I was turned off immensely by how the games battle system handled itself and after 10-15 tries I finally decided to put it down and wait for more updated/stability.  But I didn't fully blame it on design, I knew that I was never great at RLTB mechanics and knew it would be a challenge.

 

So now I have returned on version 392 and I finally complested my first runthrough the other night of the beta.  I created a Monk and believe you me it took almost 2 full days to get through it due to al the dying/reloading.  Now that I've gone through once I've decided to go through again as a ranger this time and I must say I am struggling terribly with damage control.  More specifically endurance and health damage on my entire party.

 

I find that if I am not running at least 2 front-line/tank characters my entire party is getting wiped way too easily.  The first time this happened while playing my monk I shrugged it off to sloppy play on my end but as time went on I noticed that I was dying quite more frequently than I felt I should be.  So now with the front line fighter only being the BB Fighter itself, encounters are completely destroying my party. 

 

Some observations/stats:

 

1. I am playing on easy (yes go ahead and laugh)
2. I have to fight my battles in slow/half speed (yes go ahead and laugh again)
3. It looks like the Fighter at his starting level in the beta can hold a max of 2 enemies on him? At times it looks like only one but Im almost positive he has an ability to hold 2 but am not sure how to do it.
4. Positioning seems to be a huge issue as my characters love to get stuck on themselves/enemies which completely negates their actions.
5. I think I am playing the BB rogue wrong.  It LOOKS like based on his weapons and skils that he should be a sneaky front line fighter; and while I have gotten a sneak attack off once the battle starts the enemies just absolutely tear him to shreds in 1-2 hits, which leads me into....
6. Just like the first BB version characters just seem made out of paper in this game.  Is my fighter supposed to get knocked out in 4-5 hits?  I have the priest try to keep up with endurance restoration but because 3 or 4 of the 5 total enemies are concentrated on my ranger, rogue, or wizard instead of the fighter (see problem 3 above) the priest then must do whatever they can to keep those units alive instead of my fighter.

 

In short, I suck at the game, but that doesn't mean it's bad or I dislike it.  It just takes adapting and learning how to manage the encounters.  And I would be more than appreciative of any advice or help you all might be able to impart on me based on the observations above.

 

Cheers.

[Sensuki]

Try this for starters (based on an outdated version though)

 

[Dragoslav]

I feel you, man. I gave the beta a try for the first time the other day and, given my experience with cRPGs and pen-and-paper 4e D&D, I figured I would start on Hard difficulty. Trembling with excitement as I found myself on the precipice of my first combat encounter in the game, it went a little something like this:

 

"Yes! LET'S BATTLE!"

 

*several seconds pass*

 

"Okay! All my guys are down! ... GG, fellows!"

 

Every other battle went like that, too. I figured that it was because I'm not familiar with the idiosyncracies of this particular game, but given how badly everything was destroying me, I think I'll wait for the next version to give it another go.

 

I didn't really give it a try on Normal difficulty, though. I've read that difficulty settings don't artificially increase enemy stats, they just increase or decrease the number of enemies. Is that true?

[Sensuki]

It's also best to remove all of your armor vs beetles in this version. In the next version they won't be as bad.

[PrimeJunta]

Observation 3 is correct. You can add a third by picking a talent for it on levelup if you want to.

Observation 5 is ... not quite correct. The trick with the rogue is to hang back until your frontliners have engaged, than use her to stab at enemies that are already engaged and therefore can't hit you.

Observation 6 is correct, and will be changed in future BB's.

 

"Damage mitigation/control" won't work, not in this build. The beetles and lions especially will hit you harder than any defense you can put up. The way to win is to do more damage faster. (Again, this may change in future BB's as the numbers are adjusted -- I think the design intent is that defensive builds and tactics are viable also, at least a lot of the time.)

 

Anyhoo, here are a few pointers to playing it somewhat effectively.

 

One: synergies.

 

The rogue gets sneak attacks if an enemy has, basically, any negative status effect going. So, to get her to do damage, you have to slap those status effects on. The rogue can do this herself with Blinding Strike and Crippling Strike (if you take it on levelup), but it's much better to use other characters for it. BB Fighter can Knockdown and BB Wizard has all kinds of spells that inflict status effects. If you roll up a Druid, Chanter, Cipher etc. you'll find even more.

 

The same applies to spells. Many of the enemies are pretty good at dodging BB Wizard's AoE damage spells, for example, but if you use an AoE debuff on them first (Slicken is way, way overpowered and will almost certainly be nerfed, but it will certainly work), then they will bite. Read the spell descriptions: for example, Fireball attacks Reflex, so to make it bite harder, find a spell that attacks something else (Will or Fortitude, for example) to debuff Reflex on the enemies first. Once you kill enough enemies to see their defenses, pay attention to those and attack whichever defense is weakest first.

 

Lesson: use one character to apply a status effect on enemies (e.g. with an AoE spell or special attack), then another to exploit it (e.g. BB Rogue for Sneak Attack, BB Wizard for AoE damage).

 

Two, crowd control. Look for crowd control spells in BB Wizard's and (if applicable) your PC's spell repertoire and use them, like, a lot. As stated, Slicken is something of a "win" button right now. Druids have a second-level spell that wins beetle fights handily (it Paralyzes animals), plus a number of others that inflict Hobbled or Slowed, and so on. Even apart from the synergies, they'll stop the beetles or whoever from zerg rushing you and give you time to deal with them.

 

Three, positioning. Assign two characters to frontline duty. If you make a fighter, barb, paladin, or maybe priest, they're good candidates. Otherwise I usually use BB Fighter and BB Priest. Armor and shields are useless against beetles but useful against most other things (this too will change). Once the front line has engaged, you can circle around with BB Wizard (and/or PC, if applicable) and use those cone and line-shaped spells to great effect. I especially like Ice Knives because it not only does damage but also inflicts Hobbled, which makes BB Rogue happy and other spells bite harder.

 

Four, choice of target. This will likely change as the game is rebalanced, but right now your first priority should be to kill or neutralize the heaviest enemies engaging your front line the fastest. This because, as you said, everyone's so fragile. So, once BB Fighter engages a beetle, have him immediately use Knock Down on it so it won't bite, then hit it with everything you've got. Rinse and repeat until victory. If you've used crowd control you will have time to win it.

 

Five, choice of weapon. Some of the weapons just plain suck (and I'm sure that'll be changed too). I usually go whack Medreth's group first because they have some nice gear. The War Bow is the all-round best ranged weapon. The Fine Mace is really good because it has DT bypass. BB Rogue wielding two stilettos (also with DT bypass) hits satisfyingly hard. BB Fighter should stick with the morning star. Later on you can maybe upgrade someone to an Exceptional Estoc and maybe BB Rogue to Exceptional Saber, because by then you won't have the super-heavily-armored beetles to deal with. You will also find firearms which you should experiment with as they're very powerful as an opening volley (but useless as the encounter proceeds due to the slow reload time).

 

Six, build and levelup choices. Accuracy is king. When rolling up a character, pump PER to high heaven to get max Accuracy, take Weapon Focus as early as you can and stick to weapons in that group, and take any other talents that buff Accuracy. (BB Wizard has a level 1 spell that guarantees a bunch of crits for the next one he casts, so keep that in mind too.)

 

That's about all I can think of ATM.

Edited January 22, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[aeonsim]

The general observations above are will help but if you want a more detailed example try the following against the beetles.

 

If your main Char is a Druid, Chanter or Cipher it makes things easier as they all have a range of very useful spells.

 

Configure all your party with a ranged weapon as secondary.

On the crossings map put your party into Scouting mode and move north east you should find a group of beetles just above the road, usually a couple of stone beetles and a couple of wood beetles.

Move your party back and to the right so you can only just see the one of the wood beetles at the edge of the fog of war.

Now position your party so the fighter is in front of every one and between them and where the stone beetles are and activate his defence ability, put the priest next/slighly behind him and your wizard further back along with the rogue and your PC if it's a spell caster. If they're a chanter, Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian they can move up next to the priest on the other side of the fighter.

Make sure everyone except the fighter has there ranged weapons selected.

Use the Wizard to cast web (or use the Druids vines which is better if you have one) on the Wood beetles but position it so that they're at the edge of the AoE which will allow you to catch the Stone beetles as well. You don't need to directly see both wood beetles to do this if one is sitting at the edge of the fog of war you'll still catch the other one as well and your wizard won't have to run forward to cast it this way.

 

As soon as the spell hits pause the game select every one with a ranged weapon and tell them to attack the first wood beetle, which should now be hobbled so the Rogue will get sneak attacks. You should be able to kill it before it can walk up to your party. When the next wood beetle shows up pause again and target it with all your ranged characters. At some point possibly before this one or two of the stone beetles will appear and move towards the party (one of them will probably be hobbled from the web).

With the fighters defence ability on wait until the beetles have nearly reached the party and then order him to attack them. With his defence ability he should be able to engage both of them. You can then use your priest to cast healing circle or watchful presence (if your high enough level) making sure the fighter is in the circle. If you want you can also cast blessing or another buffing spell. If he doesn't manage to engage both of them use either a paladin, Chanter or priest to attack the extra ones with a melee weapon.

 

Hopefully at this point the two wood beetles are dead, if one is still alive use a wizard spell to finish it off ie the Magic Missile equiv.

Your Fighter is probably hurt abit at this point but healing circle should be keeping that under control, if not cast a healing spell on to him.

 

You can now switch the rogue to his melee weapons and carefully run him around to the back of the stone beetles along the road and then attack them from behind, they'll now be flanked between him and the fighter and so he should get plenty of sneak attacks. If you have a Barbarian do the same thing his carnage ability will allow him to hit both of them at once.

Alternatively you can move your Wizard or Druid around and use AoE damage spells on the stone beetles from the side.

If you have a Cipher with the paralysis ability you can use that to paralyse the stone beetles which will allow you to quickly kill them.

If you have a Chanter by the time you kill both wood beetles you should have enough chants to cast a Summon Phantom spell behind the beetles to help kill them, also if you have a chanter you should make sure your using the Flaming weapons chant the extra damage helps alot.

 

If it looks like one of your characters can't survive the attacks from the stone beetles you can use the 1st level Priest spell withdraw to make them invulnerable and to heal them the targeted character can't attack in this state but often the enemies will take a little while to realise they can't hurt the withdrawn player and they'll keep trying to attack it for abit.

 

 

There are a number of other things that you can do to make things easier if you choose a Chanter or Cipher or make one as an Adventurer they both have abilities that are very useful.

The Cipher has a second level spell "Mental Binding" that attacks will and paralyses it's target while stunning enemies nearby this works really well as an area of affect around the target and only costs 15 focus so you can usually cast it a couple of times before needing to attack again for more focus. Paralysed or stuck beetles are very easy to kill. Eye strike can also work well as it blinds enemies making them a lot weaker (not as weak as paralysed does but still decent).

The Chanter has a chant that adds fire damage to all weapons, you should always chose this and have it as one of your playing chants currently. For there spells the 1st level Phantom is very effective at dealing damage, and there is another one that stuns enemies that can be useful.

[Lord Gorchnik]

Wow, thanks for the advice.  Funny enough, it's not the beetles that have been giving me grief but the lions (which I see Prime mentioned), the druids in the gorge, and just a few encounters in the dungeons.  I beat the beta again....more easily I suppose last night with a barbarian but once again when I tried playing a range or caster character (tried ranger and chanter) I found myself getting obliterated again.

 

Watched Josh's recent stream to see how he was playing and picked up a few more basic tips just from seeing how he handled his combat structure.  I don't know what all they plan on changing before the next BB/release but I must say my two biggest complains so far are that fighters and paladins still feel like pieces of paper which just.....isn't right.  I know they're not supposed to be zounds and zounds of health but damn man, 5 hits and they're out is just silly.

 

My 2nd gripe is ranged combat via rangers.  I noticed some other topics discussing this class (and ranged damage in general) and it is just awful.  I think my biggest flaw though is also having my animal companion in the fray and then when they die.....well....

 

Will keep practicing, it's the only way to get better.

[Sensuki]

Lions hit for OP damage, I think they've been tuned down a bit in the latest patch.

 

The Druids are (all) scripted to cast Blizzard at the same time which does OP damage (Level 2 spell and you can do 85 damage with it ... lol). I wouldn't be surprised if that spell has been nerfed for the next build too.

[Lephys]

I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks, but isn't the current BB build lacking in damage/armor/HP tuning? I remember Josh talking about that recently, but I wasn't sure if we'd seen a build post-tune or not.

 

There's just a lot of numbers type stuff, I think, in the BB that's not really "Oh goodness! That's off? But our calculations were PERFECT!", because they just aren't really the intentional, finalized values yet. They've had a lot of bugs/issues that have affected things like damage dealt and combat pace, etc, that they've apparently been fixing before even attempting to largely tune things into delightful ranges. Methinks...

[aeonsim]

The paralyzes spells work really well vs the lions as well. In general the tactics described for taking down the beetles work fairly well against most of the other enemies as well. The lions knock down is annoying but they have less damage reduction than the beetles so ranged weapons work even better.

[Lord Wafflebum]

Sensuki's videos are good to watch to get started. Another forum member, Shevek, also made some videos for those new to the game.

 

Honestly, I loathed this game until I got help from them. I played on Easy to begin with as well and up until very recently. Watching how others have played classes is hugely helpful. I've only recently begun to appreciate the wizard class which I had found disappointing until I learned I was playing it wrong.

 

If I can get the hang of it, anyone can. I made the most progress playing as a monk and hiring a chanter from the inn immediately after starting. If there is a specific hurdle you're facing, come on the forums and ask. Sensuki especially is a good resource for strategy advice.

 

The learning curve is a bit steep, but once you get used to it this game is a lot of fun.

[Few]

Also remember (as I had to remind myself too!) its only a beta and not a demo. As the others have said above the damage and stuff isn't right in the beta we can play at the moment. :D 

[morhilane]

 

The learning curve is a bit steep, but once you get used to it this game is a lot of fun.

 

It's steep because you start mid-level with a party you didn't build and without much knowledge systems. Starting at level 1 with a single character is going to do wonders for the learning curve.

[Lephys]

It's steep because you start mid-level with a party you didn't build and without much knowledge systems. Starting at level 1 with a single character is going to do wonders for the learning curve.

Indeedz! There should be a lot more leeway, on any difficulty setting, when you're level 1 facing some level 1 encounters.

[Lord Wafflebum]

Agreed. I know Josh mentioned the tutorials were deemed worthy by their QA guys. That will help the new folk a lot.

[Lephys]

I guess if they had been able to get the tutorials into the BB builds, we could've QA'd the tutorials for them.

 

Not sure how necessary that is, though.

[Lord Wafflebum]

I'm sure they're fine. I got a LOT more comfortable watching a few videos from Sensuki and Shevek. As long as the cover the basics like that it should more than suffice to get folks started.

[Lephys]

I dunno. What if there are lots of tutorial bugs? Like... it tells you to press ALT-F4 for slow-mo?

[Lord Wafflebum]

Lol, can you imagine the forum explosion from that?

[Lord Gorchnik]

Worst case scenario within 1-2 months after the game's release there should be plenty of juicy tid-bits that the community has thrown together to help out in all aspects whether the topic are: builds, quests, battle system, etc.

 

Tried running with a cypher this time.  DId better than the Ranger run, but Monk, Barb, and Fighter were still cleaner runs for myself.