Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)

[Luckmann]

I was not asking you to. The you I used in that post was you (plural). The point is the same as a previous post I made, a point which you either skimmed over, or are just plain ignoring.

 

There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that.

Pre-buffing is still useful, and an alternative to casting in combat with an opportunity cost (sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse - depends on the game, spell and encounter). It could have been better balanced absolutely, but just flat out removing it is simply listening to the ignorant portion of the fanbase only.

 

 

Baby, bathwater, dumbing down, etc.

[Enoch]

Being able to pre-buff is theoretically nice in that it rewards good scouting or other info-sources (with the drawback of rewarding good metaknowledge), but it's hardly the only way in which a game can reward scouting or paying attention to in-game hints.  I've played very little of the PoE Beta (and even that was a couple versions ago), but scouting and planning were still useful in determining tactical approach or avoidance options, equipment variations, wizard grimiore selection, planning when to expend per-day resources, etc.  The analogy that some are making to "charge in and click until everything is dead" ARPG gameplay doesn't really fly. 

 

But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun.  I still did it every damned day with every party I ran in BG2, because you'd be dumb not to, but it was tedious.  And I doubt that anybody has ever gotten a feeling of having accomplished something clever by casting Bless and Haste to tip the numbers in their favor before a battle.  If PoE can get rid of that tedium and still deliver systems that reward forethought, reconnaissance, and planning, that'd be great in my book.

 

 

(I guess that preparing one's self with stuff like Negative Plane Protection or Chaotic Commands could be a little satisfying when you see those attacks/spells failing later, but those were never the kind of challenges that I, as a player, got much satisfaction out of solving.  It was rote countering-- the game played the Vampire card at me, so I played the NPP card in response-- nothing so rewarding as, say, figuring out a way to win a battle through superior tactical positioning or clever use of an under-appreciated spell, item, or ability.  This is parenthetical because it really says more about to the "no hard counters" design goal than it does the "no pre-buffing" design goal.)

[PrimeJunta]

@Enoch Yeh.

 

Again: the coolest moments in a spell battle I had were in IWD when someone charmed a party member and I Dominated him right back, then someone did it again to someone else, and I used Hold Person to get him to stay put until it wore off. That was genuine back-and-forth, in-the-moment stuff which wouldn't have happened if I had just quick-loaded and pre-buffed with Freedom of Movement and Chaotic Commands (or something).

 

I haven't had any moments like that in the BG2 spell battles. No back and forth. It's either quick victory or equally quick defeat. If it starts to go bad, I can only very very rarely turn it back around. Those high-level spells are just so immediately lethal or debilitating if they bite, on both sides.

 

I would prefer a magic system that had more of that back-and-forth, rather than immunities that are either up or not. So no, I'm not really digging the mage battles, even if I've figured out how to beat them in a reasonable number of reloads.

[Stun]

Pre-buffing is still useful, and an alternative to casting in combat with an opportunity cost (sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse - depends on the game, spell and encounter). It could have been better balanced absolutely, but just flat out removing it is simply listening to the ignorant portion of the fanbase only.

More importantly, it is a choice.... one that has been taken away from us. There was *nothing* stopping Josh Sawyer from keeping all the 'opportunity costs' and in-battle-only buffs and also giving us some pre-buff spells.

 

In fact, for you "Balance-is-king" folks, I'd propose a system where a spell casters combat-only buffs are the super-powerful 'hard counter' kind, while the type of buffs with the longer durations - the kind you can cast before a battle, be the less powerful general type. That way the element of planning and preparing is still there, but at the same time, it's not cheapening combat.

 

Problem friggin solved.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun.  I still did it every damned day with every party I ran in BG2, because you'd be dumb not to, but it was tedious. 

 

I've never ever casted prot-evil-10-rad in an IE game ever. You didn't need to. And I've never stood around casting stoneskin every damned day. What a waste of a spell if you don't need to cast it against enemies like trash mobs. 

[Stun]

@Enoch Yeh.

 

Again: the coolest moments in a spell battle I had were in IWD when someone charmed a party member and I Dominated him right back, then someone did it again to someone else, and I used Hold Person to get him to stay put until it wore off. That was genuine back-and-forth, in-the-moment stuff which wouldn't have happened if I had just quick-loaded and pre-buffed with Freedom of Movement and Chaotic Commands (or something).

 

I haven't had any moments like that in the BG2 spell battles.

Ooh! I have. And it was quite hilarious.

 

It was my main character (Kensai-thief) and Seravok taking on Demogorgon on the front lines, while my Cleric (Viconia) and mage (Edwin) were doing their thing in the back.

 

Demogorgon: casts 'beguiling gaze' on Seravok and Seravok turns hostle. Huge friggin problem, since he was wielding Ravager +6 and he was buffed up with improved haste and a potion of storm giant strength. He could have easily one-shotted anyone in my party.

 

Quick thinking time... I had to get him out of the way. Like, Immediately.

 

Edwin: casts Maze. Off to another plane of existance you go, Seravok. Phew...that was close. Wait....we still have a problem. My Kensai-thief is now meleeing Demogorgon by himself. Not a good scenario. Time for some more quick thinking.

 

Viconia: casts Summon Fallen Deva. Sweet, I now have a very powerful Helper. What are you gonna do now, oh "prince" of Demons"?

 

Demogorgon: casts Summon Infernal Host. Now it's my Kensai-Thief and Fallen Diva vs. Demogorgon and 2 friggin Mareliths on the front lines. But hey, that's an even fight.... Demogorgon is near death and when he's gone we're golden (Edwin can take out 2 Mereliths on his own if he really as to.) Wait...

 

Back comes Seravok from the Maze spell...and he's still dominated (?!). He immediately attacks the Fallen Diva. Fallen Diva turns hostile.

 

 

At this point, I've had enough of this Black Hole of an encounter.

 

Edwin: Casts timestop

Edwin: Casts Improved Alracity.

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's horrid wilting

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's horrid wilting

Edwin: Prismatic Spray -Merelith #1

Edwin: Timestop

Edwin: Spell sequencer: Skull trap + Skull Trap + Skull Trap

Edwin: Chain Lightning

Edwin: Finger of Death - Marelith #2

Edwin: finger of Death - Fallen Diva

 

Time stop expires, Both Mareliths dead; Fallen Diva dead; Serevok Dead.

Kensai-Thief uses Rod of resurrection on Seravok.

 

All is well again. Next time I'll pre-buff better.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Enoch]

 

But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun.  I still did it every damned day with every party I ran in BG2, because you'd be dumb not to, but it was tedious. 

 

I've never ever casted prot-evil-10-rad in an IE game ever. You didn't need to. And I've never stood around casting stoneskin every damned day. What a waste of a spell if you don't need to cast it against enemies like trash mobs. 

 

If your party is barely 7th level or so, I agree-- you want to conserve that resource as much as possible.  But when you're in the teens (as in much of BG2) it's certainly worth spending a 4th-level spell slot "just in case."  Particularly so if you're not playing with metaknowledge of what you're going to be facing next.  (And even if you are, BG2 random encounters usually drop enemies right on top of your back line, so pre-stoneskinning is invaluable.)

 

As for Protection from Evil, a 10% bonus to AC and saving throws against most of the game's enemies for all of your party, that rarely expires before you need to rest again (barring long hikes), is a fantastic value at its level. 

[PrimeJunta]

That sounds like a really cool battle.

[Yonjuro]

Being able to pre-buff is theoretically nice ... But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun. ...

 

 Fair enough, but that can be fixed easily. For example, the IE games had 'healing spells cast on rest' as an option. You could extend that idea and have additional spells when you rest or when you wake up, spell sequences (essentially macros, e.g., cast protection from fear on the PC and protection from evil with one button push etc.).  

 

 That would remove the drudgery without removing pre-buffs. Remember, "pre-buffing" is really a misnomer; it just means being able to cast the spells that you have available to cast whenever you want rather than limiting some of them to 'combat mode,' an artificial distinction.

[Brasidas]

Edit: Yonjuro has essentially the same idea.

 

We could make pre-buffing an always on effect changed only at rest or with a grimoire switch, with a limit on the number of buffs active. For example, a priest could choose to have negative plane protection, mass protection from evil, bless, or some other such thing always on, changeable only at rest. 

 

It wouldn't remove the meta-gaming problem, but it would get rid of the tedium and offer interesting choices between which buffs the player chooses for their party. However, to make the choices really interesting and less about the meta-game, the buffs would need to focus on synergistic effects with other abilities instead of raw number increases and hard counters. Shallow examples: having freedom of movement always on and employing web and entangle effects, or employing high fire resistance buffs and spamming fireballs.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Brasidas

[Gromnir]

I was not asking you to. The you I used in that post was you (plural). The point is the same as a previous post I made, a point which you either skimmed over, or are just plain ignoring.

 

There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that.

Pre-buffing is still useful, and an alternative to casting in combat with an opportunity cost (sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse - depends on the game, spell and encounter). It could have been better balanced absolutely, but just flat out removing it is simply listening to the ignorant portion of the fanbase only.

 

the exact ooposite argument is just as valid.  buffing only in combat is an alternative to prebuffing and it avoids the mindnumbing, slavish and ritualistic layering on of spells that many/most players engaged in before ie battles. can combat buffing be better balanced and more streamlined than we has seen so far in the beta? of course, one can only hope that it don't take the obsidian's developers  to reach a fifth iteration (such as bg2 were o' the ie engine) before poe games offer similarly deep and complex combat, but it would be ignorant of those developers to pander to a small, and noisy portion of the fanbase that wants poe to replicate bad ie features as well as good.

 

and am hoping it finally sinks in that one guy playing iwd without prebuffs is, and should be, no more meaningful to the obsidian developers than the feedback they has received via watching innumerable folks play the ie games.  more importantly, the obsidian developers should be aware o' how poe testers has played poe and attempt to improve that game rather than making some kinda reactionary development choice 'cause a small number o' boardies bark louder and more frequent than do others. 

 

of more immediate note, we used aoe protection from evil frequently, and invariably when facing demons and devils. without metagaming, that would require us to cast such a spell when facing any high level mage or monster capable of high-level spell casting. so... frequently? yes, frequent.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 15, 2015 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

aside: protection from evil aoe had a Long casting time and a very long duration at 2 turns per level o' the caster.  it were an ideal pre-battle buff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

True, still What are you getting for your efforts, and for spending a 4rd level spell slot on it?

 

1) Enemies suffer a -2 attack penalty against you

2) Your party gets +2 to saving throws.

 

It's good. And useful. It's just enough to make you noticeably more resilient in combat. But it's not a game changer. And it certainly won't "trivialize combat". Not by itself at least. (or whatever hyperbole-driven gripe is being leveled at pre-buffing these days)

 

Edit: or at least I've never heard anyone say: "Sh*t. Just got my ass kicked by Fiirkrag because I forgot to cast "protection from Evil 10' radius!"

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

Honestly, Protection from Evil is one of the "bad" pre-buffs, imo. Yes, you "waste" a slot, and that's actually a much bigger thing in PoE than in BG2 (because of how everyone works like pseudo-sorcerers, which I actually think is a nice system), but it lasts so long and is a solid no-brainer bonus at higher levels.

 

There's really no reason not to take it. -2 Penalty to enemies and +2 to Saving Throws isn't a game changer, but it's a pretty nice buff and there's no reason not to take it. Now, in PoE, such a thing would actually be a significant trade-off, because it would take up one of your very valuable slots for something you'd cast once (or twice, assuming Dispel Magic was a thing). It'd almost be like slotting something like a Paladin Aura, which I honestly think is perfectly ****ing reasonable.

 

At least if the actual Paladin auras were more powerful.

 

 

@Enoch Yeh.

 

Again: the coolest moments in a spell battle I had were in IWD when someone charmed a party member and I Dominated him right back, then someone did it again to someone else, and I used Hold Person to get him to stay put until it wore off. That was genuine back-and-forth, in-the-moment stuff which wouldn't have happened if I had just quick-loaded and pre-buffed with Freedom of Movement and Chaotic Commands (or something).

 

I haven't had any moments like that in the BG2 spell battles.

Ooh! I have. And it was quite hilarious.

 

It was my main character (Kensai-thief) and Seravok taking on Demogorgon on the front lines, while my Cleric (Viconia) and mage (Edwin) were doing their thing in the back.

 

Demogorgon: casts 'beguiling gaze' on Seravok and Seravok turns hostle. Huge friggin problem, since he was wielding Ravager +6 and he was buffed up with improved haste and a potion of storm giant strength. He could have easily one-shotted anyone in my party.

 

Quick thinking time... I had to get him out of the way. Like, Immediately.

 

Edwin: casts Maze. Off to another plane of existance you go, Seravok. Phew...that was close. Wait....we still have a problem. My Kensai-thief is now meleeing Demogorgon by himself. Not a good scenario. Time for some more quick thinking.

 

Viconia: casts Summon Fallen Deva. Sweet, I now have a very powerful Helper. What are you gonna do now, oh "prince" of Demons"?

 

Demogorgon: casts Summon Infernal Host. Now it's my Kensai-Thief and Fallen Diva vs. Demogorgon and 2 friggin Mareliths on the front lines. But hey, that's an even fight.... Demogorgon is near death and when he's gone we're golden (Edwin can take out 2 Mereliths on his own if he really as to.) Wait...

 

Back comes Seravok from the Maze spell...and he's still dominated (?!). He immediately attacks the Fallen Diva. Fallen Diva turns hostile.

 

 

At this point, I've had enough of this Black Hole of an encounter.

 

Edwin: Casts timestop

Edwin: Casts Improved Alracity.

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's horrid wilting

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting

Edwin: Abi Dalzim's horrid wilting

Edwin: Prismatic Spray -Merelith #1

Edwin: Timestop

Edwin: Spell sequencer: Skull trap + Skull Trap + Skull Trap

Edwin: Chain Lightning

Edwin: Finger of Death - Marelith #2

Edwin: finger of Death - Fallen Diva

 

Time stop expires, Both Mareliths dead; Fallen Diva dead; Serevok Dead.

Kensai-Thief uses Rod of resurrection on Seravok.

 

All is well again. Next time I'll pre-buff better.

 

I've done similar things with Abi Dalzim's and Dragon's Breath (or whatever it's called), but afaik, the Demogorgon is immune to Time Stop. Did you miss a "The Demogorgon dies" in your story? I was confused at first.

 

But yeah, there's some really insane, crazy, crazy things you can do in Throne of Bhaal with Timestop+Improved Alacrity.

 

The Tethyrian Army comes to mind. Yes, I realize that they're pushovers and it's not necessary, but just do it and run through the place (with Haste) throwing out Dragon's Breath's (which causes knockbacks), Abi Dalzim's, and, if you still have time, Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill.

 

Hi-la-ri-ous.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Luckmann

[Stun]

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I mentioned that he was near death. That means dead in the next hit in ToB. And of course I didn't cast timestop until Demogorgon was dead. Because that would be suicide! (I hadn't memorized any Pierce Shields, so a solo magic duel against Demogorgon would have just seen my entire front line get decimated, while my mage fires off a bunch of spells that do nothing.)

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

irrelevant aside: pnp protection from evil were actual far more useful than ie version as it protected against all kinda mind-affecting spells. however, the 10' protection from evil were just that, a stationary and immobile 10' freaking circle/sphere. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[illathid]

Being able to pre-buff is theoretically nice in that it rewards good scouting or other info-sources (with the drawback of rewarding good metaknowledge), but it's hardly the only way in which a game can reward scouting or paying attention to in-game hints.  I've played very little of the PoE Beta (and even that was a couple versions ago), but scouting and planning were still useful in determining tactical approach or avoidance options, equipment variations, wizard grimiore selection, planning when to expend per-day resources, etc.  The analogy that some are making to "charge in and click until everything is dead" ARPG gameplay doesn't really fly. 

 

But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun.  I still did it every damned day with every party I ran in BG2, because you'd be dumb not to, but it was tedious.  And I doubt that anybody has ever gotten a feeling of having accomplished something clever by casting Bless and Haste to tip the numbers in their favor before a battle.  If PoE can get rid of that tedium and still deliver systems that reward forethought, reconnaissance, and planning, that'd be great in my book.

 

 

(I guess that preparing one's self with stuff like Negative Plane Protection or Chaotic Commands could be a little satisfying when you see those attacks/spells failing later, but those were never the kind of challenges that I, as a player, got much satisfaction out of solving.  It was rote countering-- the game played the Vampire card at me, so I played the NPP card in response-- nothing so rewarding as, say, figuring out a way to win a battle through superior tactical positioning or clever use of an under-appreciated spell, item, or ability.  This is parenthetical because it really says more about to the "no hard counters" design goal than it does the "no pre-buffing" design goal.)

 

Yeah, pre-buffing is not an necessary and sufficient condition of pre-battle planning. Scouting, weapon & gear selection, positioning, party composition, and other I'm probably missing all fall under the pre-battle planning umbrella. So it's false to say by not adding pre-buffing PoE somehow doesn't have pre-battle planning.

 

While it could be that pre-battle planning is diminished without pre-buffing, I don't think there are enough variety in the encounters found in the BB to really know.

[Stun]

While it could be that pre-battle planning is diminished without pre-buffing, I don't think there are enough variety in the encounters found in the BB to really know.

I don't think either side can apply this discussion to the Backer Beta anyway. Buffing itself is diminished in this Beta. Fights end way too quickly to make any difference whatsoever. That is to say, why would anyone waste time with buffs in combat when any sort of delay in direct damage dealing results in your party members getting slaughtered wholesale?

[Gromnir]

 

Being able to pre-buff is theoretically nice in that it rewards good scouting or other info-sources (with the drawback of rewarding good metaknowledge), but it's hardly the only way in which a game can reward scouting or paying attention to in-game hints.  I've played very little of the PoE Beta (and even that was a couple versions ago), but scouting and planning were still useful in determining tactical approach or avoidance options, equipment variations, wizard grimiore selection, planning when to expend per-day resources, etc.  The analogy that some are making to "charge in and click until everything is dead" ARPG gameplay doesn't really fly. 

 

But I've never found standing around casting stoneskin and prot-evil-10-rad a whole lot of fun.  I still did it every damned day with every party I ran in BG2, because you'd be dumb not to, but it was tedious.  And I doubt that anybody has ever gotten a feeling of having accomplished something clever by casting Bless and Haste to tip the numbers in their favor before a battle.  If PoE can get rid of that tedium and still deliver systems that reward forethought, reconnaissance, and planning, that'd be great in my book.

 

 

(I guess that preparing one's self with stuff like Negative Plane Protection or Chaotic Commands could be a little satisfying when you see those attacks/spells failing later, but those were never the kind of challenges that I, as a player, got much satisfaction out of solving.  It was rote countering-- the game played the Vampire card at me, so I played the NPP card in response-- nothing so rewarding as, say, figuring out a way to win a battle through superior tactical positioning or clever use of an under-appreciated spell, item, or ability.  This is parenthetical because it really says more about to the "no hard counters" design goal than it does the "no pre-buffing" design goal.)

 

Yeah, pre-buffing is not an necessary and sufficient condition of pre-battle planning. Scouting, weapon & gear selection, positioning, party composition, and other I'm probably missing all fall under the pre-battle planning umbrella. So it's false to say by not adding pre-buffing PoE somehow doesn't have pre-battle planning.

 

While it could be that pre-battle planning is diminished without pre-buffing, I don't think there are enough variety in the encounters found in the BB to really know.

 

one could/should suggest that pre-battle planning is necessarily increased in the absence o' pre-buffing.  if we keep insisting on using bg2 in spite o' the relative power disparity between bg2 and poe as envisioned by the obsidian developers, we will again note that while our pre-buffs differed somewhat depending on the enemies we were facing, those pre-buffs typically determined the difficulty o' a combat. our largely rote pre-battle ritual when utilized correctly, made all combats relative simple. aside from dragon battles, party positioning or coordination were relatively incidental concerns. did we have the proper weapons, potions and spells pre-cast and memorized? if the answer were yes, then we won.

 

without pre-buffing, Gromnir must, perhaps counter-intuitive,  be even concerned with luckman's aforementioned "strategic prepwork" and actual battle tactics.  poorly positioned or timed spells and party coordination is of much greater importance if we do not have 5 or 6 layers of spell defenses that we know ahead o' time will be neutralizing our opponent abilities. tactics during battle is of far greater importance. similarly, strategic prepwork is more important as lack o' pre-bufss means synergy between party members abilities is of increased concern.  

 

when offering advice to pj earlier, we noted that with appropriate gear and pre-buffs, one could make korgan functional invulnerable by the mid-point o' the game. there is a relative limited number o' categories o' harmful enemy effects that one need protect against in the ie games-- mind effecting spells, and physical damage, and energy drain, etc.  layer protections appropriately, and  predict enemy ai, you gain functional immunity to harm.  is a very useful way to approach bg2, nevertheless, the pre-buff-to-win approach strikes us as a bit shallow.

 

again, there is a argument, a good argument, that removing pre-buffs is requiring far more tactical and strategic sophistication from the player, as well as avoiding a tedious and repetitive pre-battle ie ritual.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

one could/should suggest that pre-battle planning is necessarily increased in the absence o' pre-buffing.  if we keep insisting on using bg2 in spite o' the relative power disparity between bg2 and poe as envisioned by the obsidian developers, we will again note that while our pre-buffs differed somewhat depending on the enemies we were facing, those pre-buffs typically determined the difficulty o' a combat. our largely rote pre-battle ritual when utilized correctly, made all combats relative simple. aside from dragon battles, party positioning or coordination were relatively incidental concerns. did we have the proper weapons, potions and spells pre-cast and memorized? if the answer were yes, then we won.

 

without pre-buffing, Gromnir must, perhaps counter-intuitive,  be even concerned with luckman's aforementioned "strategic prepwork" and actual battle tactics.  poorly positioned or timed spells and party coordination is of much greater importance if we do not have 5 or 6 layers of spell defenses that we know ahead o' time will be neutralizing our opponent abilities. tactics during battle is of far greater importance. similarly, strategic prepwork is more important as lack o' pre-bufss means synergy between party members abilities is of increased concern.  

 

when offering advice to pj earlier, we noted that with appropriate gear and pre-buffs, one could make korgan functional invulnerable by the mid-point o' the game. there is a relative limited number o' categories o' harmful enemy effects that one need protect against in the ie games-- mind effecting spells, and physical damage, and energy drain, etc.  layer protections appropriately, and  predict enemy ai, you gain functional immunity to harm.  is a very useful way to approach bg2, nevertheless, the pre-buff-to-win approach strikes us as a bit shallow.

 

again, there is a argument, a good argument, that removing pre-buffs is requiring far more tactical and strategic sophistication from the player, as well as avoiding a tedious and repetitive pre-battle ie ritual.

 

HA! Good Fun!

That's funny. Your entire post assumes intimate knowledge of 1) all Buffs in the game; 2) all enemy strengths and weaknesses in the game. The "pre-buffing makes all battles easy" premise is a good one... for a veteran, or even normal player who's simply on his 2nd or 3rd playthrough. But for what we're discussing, it's nothing but the same empty, dishonest claim we always hear from the Josh E. Sawyer Parrots. It is FALSE. If, on your first playthough, you managed to discover the 'secret formula' pre-buff routine that trivializes all encounters then you're either extremely lucky, or else the game's encounters are poorly designed, or else the buffs themselves are too powerful. And if its any of these then it doesn't make a difference that you cast those spells before a battle. Casting them DURING the battle will produce the same result. Suddenly.

 

Example: Bg1. In my first play through (in my first couple of playthroughs in fact) I overlooked Haste. (the one buff that DOES make all combat in the game easy) I came to the game with immense D&D pen and paper knowledge and that knowledge dictated that haste is a single target spell. And that being the case, I filled my 3rd level spell slots with more useful spells (like Fireball). it wasn't until like playthrough #3 (or about 250 friggin hours of playing the game) that I bothered to "read the fine print" of Haste and discover that it's a whole party (plus summons!) buff. After that I began using it whenever.... before a fight, during a fight.... the choice was mine. And it didn't make a difference whether I cast it before a boss battle, or while I was in the middle of it. Once I cast it, the fight ended just a few seconds later. Period.

 

But it figures that the millisecond we discover a balance issue, people like you instantly call for the removal of player freedom, without even bothering to figure out what the true culprit is.... that maybe it's the spell(s) itself that just needs to be toned down a bit, or maybe the encounter was too easy to begin with. <gag>

Edited January 16, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

That's funny. Your entire post assumes intimate knowledge of 1) all Buffs in the game; 2) all enemy strengths and weaknesses in the game. The "pre-buffing makes all battles easy" premise is a good one... for a veteran, or even normal player who's simply on his 2nd or 3rd playthrough. But for what we're discussing, it's nothing but the same empty, dishonest claim we always hear from the Josh E. Sawyer Parrots.

 

well, no.  see above even for our advice to pj.  we had a basic bg2 pre-battle pre-buff ritual that were, with only minor adjustments, useful for a very large percentage of bg2 battles.  this were even more true for iwd and ridiculously true for bg wherein we really only ever needed one battle-plan.  as noted very recent, we invariably had aoe protections from evil active.  we also always had stoneskins for mages.  we already mentioned how we would layer our "tank" character with longer-lasting buffs and equipment to make him impervious to pretty much anything. summon some undead (likely done earlier) etc.  it were a ritual.  we bet we cast chaotic commands on characters even when we knew we weren't gonna need that spell simply because it became a habit for us-- ritual.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 16, 2015 by Gromnir

[Madscientist]

You seem to forget that the PoE magic system is different than DnD.

In Bg or IWD your casters had tons of spells but they must choose their spell slots when resting.

In PoE every class is like a sorcerer in DnD. You select your spells at level up and you can cast until your uses per day/encounter are finished. (except mages and their grimoir, this is a bit different)

That means in PoE the following scenario is impossible: You start a fight, you loose because the enemy confuses you, you reload and rest and memorize chaotic commands fight again and win. In PoE either you have a spell that cures confusion or not. If you have it you can cast it, if not you have a problem. In that sense you could argue that PoE is more meta gaming than BG because you must choose at level up what abilities will be most useful later and you don´t have the ability to scout ahead several hours of gameplay (like "I should learn spell x now because an enemy 3 dungeons later will use spell Y."). In BG or NWN, I would adwise first time players to use mages instead of sorcerers, so you can change your spell set if you find out you selected the wrong ones. I must admit that I am one of those pathetic players who do this. When I run into a combat and most of my party dies because they get confused, I reload, memorize other spells, rest and try again. You may call this bad play style but I don´t care. Nobody has the right to force other people how to play a computer game. If somebody has fun and is able to progress in the game it is OK.

 

suggestion for PoE: You should be able to cast all spells all the time. Per encounter abilities are reset at the end of the next battle. If you have a buff you can choose if you cast it before or during combat. Usuall you only have 1 or 2 uses per day/encounter anyway and the duration is short.

 

I saw a PoE video where a group entered stealth mode, moved closer to the enemies without being seen and the mage fired a fireball at the enemiy group. Then the enemies attaced, the meele chars ran forward and the other chars used spells or arrows. Is that tactical enough for you?

(This is how I did it in D:OS. Sneak, summon a fire elemental in front of them and when they gather to bash it you use a fireball to burn them and heal your elemental.)

[hollowcrown]

The magic of BG2 is that there's so much freedom so you can play how you like. Not only are there a myriad of difficulty settings, but within the game there are a whole load of different ways to play. 

 

You can do a balanced, party of 6.

 

You can do a caster only party.

 

You can solo as a warrior, solo as a thief, solo as a mage.

 

You can dual class. 

 

You can make your party out of your own character or the pre-made NPCs. 

 

Even within that, you can play your mages and casters in different ways. You can pre-buff using spells or potions or protection scrolls. You can counter using your spells. You can abuse the system using spells like Project Image and Simulacrum. Or you can play using traditional damage spells and not all of the  crazy exploits.

 

That's why the game is so wonderful and why 15 years later people are still finding new ways to play.