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No it is not...because it will not be a surprise Jesus can do that,

But if Jesus is divinely empowered, its still not a surprise he can do it assuming you know before hand He's divinely empowered. Why does suprise factor matter? Does the supernatural have to sneak up behind you and go "boo!" to be supernatural?

 

And even if you know he can do it and that it involves midichlorian, you still have no basis for how it is done, what powers God has or anything that would make it "science"

 

Seriously people, you're trying to have a rational discussion about religious belief?  Haven't the shifting goalposts clued you in to the futility of that?  Her argument that BW are atheistic satan worshipers has changed into an argument that skepticism ruins the fun.  You are wasting your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

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No it is not...because it will not be a surprise Jesus can do that,

But if Jesus is divinely empowered, its still not a surprise he can do it assuming you know before hand He's divinely empowered. Why does suprise factor matter? Does the supernatural have to sneak up behind you and go "boo!" to be supernatural?

 

And even if you know he can do it and that it involves midichlorian, you still have no basis for how it is done, what powers God has or anything that would make it "science"

 

Now you want to argue just for the sake of arguing, i know English is not my language, but i know "surprise" doesn't always means sneak up behind people and scare them.

 

If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

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Bioware in every turn want to deny the mysterious power of God, but they show you visibly the power of demons and magic. You can't deny that in the game they never explain where magic come from, but they always try to deny miracles. When magic, it's simply magic, but when it comes to God, they always pulling into "it is not God"

 

What conclusion i can make?

Plenty of different conclusions because my conclusion is totally different. I thought the whole idea is you are supposed to not be sure if The Maker is behind it all or not. Sometimes they set you up to be sure one way or the other but then plant a little seed of doubt. Because you are oversensitive about this topic you take it all in one direction.

 

You have little evidence in your support and try to weasel out of it by insisting your view is obvious so you do not have to show any evidence. I am not buying it.

Edited by Valmy
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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

 

God works through prophets. Therefore it is science and not miracles. Because it is obvious so no need to explain.

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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

 

Yes, if you can scientifically explain how a deity works then it isn't divine. It's in the book of "Undisclosed rules everyone obeys nonetheless".

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

 

 

Why would God take an efforet to create midichlorian and put into Jesus to enable him to cast his miracles rather than Jesus just "bling!" and it's miracle?

 

 

 

God works through prophets. Therefore it is science and not miracles. Because it is obvious so no need to explain.

 

 

No, God work in mysterious way, the prophets are messengers of God, God grant them some miracles, mysteriously.

 

Moses cast his staff, and his staff turn into white snake, eating other snakes that transform from Pharaoh magicians staves, is that even science?

 

 

 

Yes, if you can scientifically explain how a deity works then it isn't divine. It's in the book of "Undisclosed rules everyone obeys nonetheless".

 

 

Exactly. That is why when writing a story of magical world, leave it unexplained, or else it become sceptic and science. That is what Dragon Age and Star Wars suffer.

 

Does Harry Potter story give any explanation on why You-Know-Who cannot kill baby Harry scientifically? No, it is just "love is the most powerful magic ever", there you go baby Harry is saved.

Edited by Qistina
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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

 

 

Why would God take an efforet to create midichlorian and put into Jesus to enable him to cast his miracles rather than Jesus just "bling!" and it's miracle?

 

Why would God have Jesus do it when God can do it Himself? You're okay as long as God has one intermediary (Jesus) but not two (Midichlorians and Jesus)?

 

Its like saying you're okay when mages pull magic from the Fade in Dragon Age games, and you're okay when Demons pull magic from the Fade, but a normal person possessed by a demon and pulling magic from the Fade no longer works for you.

 

(See what I did there? Brought us back to Dragon Age).

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If Jesus have midichlorian that enable him to channel powers, then it is science not miracle. Period.

Even if God made the midichlorians, God put them in Jesus and made the midichlorians work through his divine powers its...science?

 

 

Why would God take an efforet to create midichlorian and put into Jesus to enable him to cast his miracles rather than Jesus just "bling!" and it's miracle?

 

Why would God have Jesus do it when God can do it Himself? You're okay as long as God has one intermediary (Jesus) but not two (Midichlorians and Jesus)?

 

Its like saying you're okay when mages pull magic from the Fade in Dragon Age games, and you're okay when Demons pull magic from the Fade, but a normal person possessed by a demon and pulling magic from the Fade no longer works for you.

 

(See what I did there? Brought us back to Dragon Age).

 

 

Well, my believe in Jesus is different than Christian, for me Christian believe Jesus is Son of God lessen the miracle part, he not being Son of God making miracle more into sense, but that just my believe as a Muslim.

 

Mages pull magic the Fade is not science unless they include in midichlorian into all Mages, so far they keep it mysteriously, and that's fine. The issue here is Templar need lyrium to give them miracle, and it is not even miracle, it's lyrium, see?

 

That's what i am talking about, they deny miracle by giving scepticism in everything about divine power, but they leave magic alone, that is why i say they are Satanist.

 

I always talking about Dragon Age here, i only use others as example, to make a point.

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But what the Templars are actually doing according to DAI (and this supports Alistair's claim that they don't need Lyrium) is their skills allow them to strengthen the wall between the natural world and the Fade, thus they supress a mage's ability to channel energy from the Fade by making the mage have a harder time connecting with the Fade.

 

The idea, then, is that lyrium (or - trying not to be spoilery - the special "vigil" that Cassandra went through) strengthen the ability to channel the Templar's/Seeker's conviction, thus their ability to make the Fade harder to reach for mages than without those tools.  But still possible.

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But what the Templars are actually doing according to DAI (and this supports Alistair's claim that they don't need Lyrium) is their skills allow them to strengthen the wall between the natural world and the Fade, thus they supress a mage's ability to channel energy from the Fade by making the mage have a harder time connecting with the Fade.

 

The idea, then, is that lyrium (or - trying not to be spoilery - the special "vigil" that Cassandra went through) strengthen the ability to channel the Templar's/Seeker's conviction, thus their ability to make the Fade harder to reach for mages than without those tools.  But still possible.

 

It is inconsistency then, bad writing, or some Illuminati agensts messed up with the lore. In DA:O it is established that Templar don't need lyrium, and it is proven in game mechanic. But DA2 retconed that saying that Templar does need lyrium, and in the book in which i don't read but i read the comments about it in BSN Alistair said he forgot that Templar does need lyrium, he don't know because he don't take the vow. And now this...what the heck? But still you need lyrium to unlock Templar specialization in DA:I isn't it?

 

By the way that is not the only issue, another issue is you are not the Herald of Andraste no matter what. Either you are faithful or not, your green thing at your hand is not even divine, it's magic. But you can play along as the "Herald of Andraste", meaning you are a false Messiah no matter what. It is just that you may reject and proven true, or accept and proven false...

 

I see the pattern here, even in DA:O it have been established that "The Maker have left us, He will not return", but in DA universe the religious peoples still go nuts believing in miracles, believing The Maker send Messiah and so on...which means religion is just false in DA universe. God hate them, but they still believe in God and do everything in God's name.

 

While in the mean time the devils just lulz everywhere......it is "believe what you will (but the devil is here no matter what)"

Edited by Qistina
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Well, my believe in Jesus is different than Christian, for me Christian believe Jesus is Son of God lessen the miracle part, he not being Son of God making miracle more into sense, but that just my believe as a Muslim.

We are all children of God Qistina. Sorry if that lessens the miracle.

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I understand that the Templar specialization does require Lyrium as part of the quest in DAI. It does have that in the description but as far as I recall there is nothing that actually forces you to take Lyrium as a mechanic once the specialization is achieved.  I can't speak to the books because I haven't read them and have no context for what they might say.  I will agree that Bioware has been all over the place with whether Lyrium is necessary or only makes the skills stronger.

The Anchor may be created by magic, but - for the faithful of Andraste - the idea would be that Andraste had set the events up.  When everyone else died in the explosion, why did your PC survive?  Chance?  Magic?  Intervention by Andraste?  The escape was certainly aided by the Divine Mother...but she was the highest representative of Andraste.  Did Andraste use the sacrifice as a way to create a champion who could stop the magister?

 

I don't think there's anything in DAI - that i've seen - that necessitates that the PC isn't the Herald of Andraste.

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I understand that the Templar specialization does require Lyrium as part of the quest in DAI. It does have that in the description but as far as I recall there is nothing that actually forces you to take Lyrium as a mechanic once the specialization is achieved.  I can't speak to the books because I haven't read them and have no context for what they might say.  I will agree that Bioware has been all over the place with whether Lyrium is necessary or only makes the skills stronger.

 

The Anchor may be created by magic, but - for the faithful of Andraste - the idea would be that Andraste had set the events up.  When everyone else died in the explosion, why did your PC survive?  Chance?  Magic?  Intervention by Andraste?  The escape was certainly aided by the Divine Mother...but she was the highest representative of Andraste.  Did Andraste use the sacrifice as a way to create a champion who could stop the magister?

 

I don't think there's anything in DAI - that i've seen - that necessitates that the PC isn't the Herald of Andraste.

 

In DA2, it is said that Templar does need lyrium, even the skill detail said like these below...

 

"The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors."

 

"The lyrium infusing the templar's blood protects the templar from the Fade's influence. The templar gains resistance to all forms of hostile magic."

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_%28Dragon_Age_II%29

 

By means they need lyrium and their power is from lyrium, not divine.

 

About  Herald of Andraste, no you are simply NOT the chosen one, it is just luck you survive the explosion, and you are there just because you are there...for me it is a meh story in anyway. You just barge in and then things happen...it is not a compelling story ever. Not like The Warden and even Hawke

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Since we don't know the nature of lyrium, isn't it a bit premature to declare it "undivine"?  That's even assuming that Bioware's flip-flop hasn't flopped back to Alistair being right.

 

There's nothing in the game that says its just luck that you survive; my memory is that it's left open to interpretation.

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I don't think there's anything in DAI - that i've seen - that necessitates that the PC isn't the Herald of Andraste.

Exactly. You are left unsure.

 

Especially the ending.

 

You literally call Andraste out, and she responds in turn. I find it very hard to believe that the events of the ending are just coincidence, but there's still room for doubt.

 

 

 

About  Herald of Andraste, no you are simply NOT the chosen one, it is just luck you survive the explosion, and you are there just because you are there...

In your opinion.

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Since we don't know the nature of lyrium, isn't it a bit premature to declare it "undivine"?  That's even assuming that Bioware's flip-flop hasn't flopped back to Alistair being right.

 

There's nothing in the game that says its just luck that you survive; my memory is that it's left open to interpretation.

 

Lyrium is a mineral, that is it's nature, what else?

 

Well i interpret it that way, am i wrong in my interpretation?

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I wonder, if making more templars would be as easy as simply infusing someone willing to fight with a dose of lyrium then why is the Chantry close to collapsing because of a mage rebellion and a renegade templar faction?

 

That's the sort of quirks expected whenever you represent years of training as a click of a button or finishing a quest. By all rules of Thedas a player character should never be able to pick up being a templar as specialization but as a base class giving you a rich background similar to being a mage in Origins.

 

It doesn't however and so everything that has to do with your own PC gaining powers falls squarely into story and gameplay segregation. It's a necessary tradeoff and not something worth constructing a conspiracy from. Especially if it involves a retcon by David Gaider. Seriously.

 

 

 


Lyrium is a mineral, that is it's nature, what else?

 

Well i interpret it that way, am i wrong in my interpretation?

 

 

DA:I very strongly hints at lyrium being more than just the mineralized essence of magic it was in the earlier games, what with red lyrium apparently having being corrupted by the blight and growing rapidly under the careful guidance of Imshael.

Edited by majestic
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I wonder, if making more templars would be as easy as simply infusing someone willing to fight with a dose of lyrium then why is the Chantry close to collapsing because of a mage rebellion and a renegade templar faction?

 

That's the sort of quirks expected whenever you represent years of training as a click of a button or finishing a quest. By all rules of Thedas a player character should never be able to pick up being a templar as specialization but as a base class giving you a rich background similar to being a mage in Origins.

 

It doesn't however and so everything that has to do with your own PC gaining powers falls squarely into story and gameplay segregation. It's a necessary tradeoff and not something worth constructing a conspiracy from. Especially if it involves a retcon by David Gaider. Seriously.

 

 

The Chantry control lyrium trade, they don't want to recruit too many Templars because where they want to get money to buy lyrium from the dwarves. They only create propagandas the same time they create fanatical religious officers to keep mages in control. It is all about control, it just happen that Mages are out of control.

 

I give you an example, A country attacking B country and take over the opium trade, the money from the trade they fund the fanatical religious group to terrorize C country, while the same time interpol making operations to capture little fish who sell opium in black market. But suddenly C country can counter the fanatical religious terrorist, so that's what happen.

 

The Chantry only keep just enough lyrium to execute their agendas, political agenda. It is all about "we don't want Tevinter Imperium 2.0". That is what the story want to establish originally, i think.

 

 

Lyrium is a mineral, that is it's nature, what else?

 

Well i interpret it that way, am i wrong in my interpretation?

 

 

DA:I very strongly hints at lyrium being more than just the mineralized essence of magic it was in the earlier games, what with red lyrium apparently having being corrupted by the blight and growing rapidly under the careful guidance of Imshael.

 

Whatever the lyrium can do, magical things whatsoever, it's still mineral dug up from earth. It just that this mineral can enable people to do awesome things and going crazy. It is still MINERAL.

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Whatever the lyrium can do, magical things whatsoever, it's still mineral dug up from earth. It just that this mineral can enable people to do awesome things and going crazy. It is still MINERAL.

 

That may not be true, Varrics storyline with Bianca and even more so Dagnas research suggest that Lyrium is more than that and may even be alive. Coles comments when in the party add to that. Without more information it´s open to discussion but thanks to the ingame information it is pretty clear that it´s more than just some mineral.

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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Ah yes, the whole world is a big organism, everyone living in its belly

 

Don't tell me that you believe that Hollow Earth crap too? Oh well, why am I surprised...

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Ah yes, the whole world is a big organism, everyone living in its belly

 

Wait, this thread is about Torment: Tides of Numenera now?

 

Anyway, killed my first few High Dragons in DA:I in hopes that challenging fights would result in less boring combat.

 

Yeah, no... I did have to use the "tactical view" (which I hadn't really used prior) to keep dumb companions from standing in pools of water (while fighting a lightning dragon, YOLO and all that I guess), but I spent more time fighting the companion AI than the enemy AI. So yeah, combat isn't something I'd consider DA:I's strong point. Boring at best, tedious/frustrating at worst is my experience so far.

Edited by marelooke
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