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^And my point is it was never mystic.

 

I'm not talking about the Jedi Order - they were mystics as represented by Obi-Wan.

 

But something that surrounds and binds everything and is in everyone isn't mystical.  That would be like saying that magnetism was mystical.

 

Again, Jedi is a RELIGIOUS group, look at Han Solo dialogues, he don't believe in such, he don't believe the Force, also other characters dialogues such as the Imperial officers who mock the "old religion".

 

Whatever Obi Wan or the Jedi said about the Force is from their belief, it is mystical, a mysterious power or energy that bind everything, that is Jedi belief. You can learn to use it by becoming a Jedi. At least this is what being presented in Episode 4 to 6

 

"The Force is strong with this one", what that implied? This person have a lot of midichlorians?

 

Midichlorian DESTROY mystical and mysterious aspect of "the Force"

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"The Force is strong with this one", what that implied? This person have a lot of midichlorians?

 

Midichlorian DESTROY mystical and mysterious aspect of "the Force"

 

 

Oh boy. Midichlorians or not, the fact alone that "the Force is strong in [Luke]" after knowing about for for a day or two just tells bare and plain that is some innate ability and not something gained through training and meditation. Empire Strikes Back then shows that you can improve upon your innate abilities through training.

 

The idea that the Force represents some religion or mythical force that anyone could access through training and faith is a (now apparently proven false) assumption on your end. Nothing else. You're making an awful lot of those and then react annoyed if your own ideas don't match up with those of the writers.

 

Do you do that if reality isn't to your liking as well?

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"The Force is strong with this one", what that implied? This person have a lot of midichlorians?

 

Midichlorian DESTROY mystical and mysterious aspect of "the Force"

 

 

Oh boy. Midichlorians or not, the fact alone that "the Force is strong in [Luke]" after knowing about for for a day or two just tells bare and plain that is some innate ability and not something gained through training and meditation. Empire Strikes Back then shows that you can improve upon your innate abilities through training.

 

The idea that the Force represents some religion or mythical force that anyone could access through training and faith is a (now apparently proven false) assumption on your end. Nothing else. You're making an awful lot of those and then react annoyed if your own ideas don't match up with those of the writers.

 

Do you do that if reality isn't to your liking as well?

 

 

 

Alright, i change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

Shaolin monk said we all have Chi, everything have Chi, the whole universe bind by Chi

 

Now change all Jedis dialogues in Star Wars, change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

"The Chi is strong with this one"..."The Chi is my ally, the strong ally it is, it bind everything, penetrate us..."

 

You can only learn to use the Chi by becoming a Shaolin monk, enable you to break walls, walking on fire brimstones, get hit on your **** without any pain...ect

 

Will you accept "Chi" is something "natural and mundane" and not mystical? Is Chi even science?

 

Now what about the Shaolin monk say "if you have XYZ gene you can use Chi outright, it's nothing, it's just science, everything we say about Chi is just crap"

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Again, Jedi is a RELIGIOUS group, look at han Solo dialogues, he don't believe in such, he don't believe the Force, also other characters dialogues such as the Imperial officers who mock the "old religion".

Sure they mock the old religion - the Sith only have two force users, the Master and the Apprentice.  The order itself is considered long gone.  But you seem to be working under the assumption that any opinion held by a religion must be related to mystical or spiritual matters which doesn't seem to be true.

 

Whatever Obi Wan or the jedi said about the Force is from their belief, it is mystical, a mysterious power or energy that bind everything, that is Jedi belief. You can learn to use it by becoming a Jedi. At least this is what being presented in Episode 4 to 6

 

Obi-Wan did not say that it was a mystical or mysterious power, though.

 

"The Force is strong with this one", what that implied? This person have a lot of midichlorians?

 

Yes? Or they had super-charged midichlorians that channeled the Force (" an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together") in a greater degree than others.

 

Midichlorian DESTROY mystical and mysterious aspect of "the Force"

 

Not really. It is still unknown. You could still debate whether it is the hand of the Creator directly the bestows midichlorians on the blessed family lines (not unlike the "Divine Right of Kings" theory) or a creation of the creator that passes like genetics from parent to child.  Midichlorians are, ultimately, a handwave.  They don't explain anything and I confess that I've never understood why people felt it took the "magic" out of Star Wars.

 

Alright, i change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

Shaolin monk said we all have Chi, everything have Chi, the whole universe bind by Chi

 

Now change all Jedis dialogues in Star Wars, change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

"The Chi is strong with this one"..."The Chi is my ally, the strong ally it is, it bind everything, penetrate us..."

 

You can only learn to use the Chi by becoming a Shaolin monk, enable you to break walls, walking on fire brimstones, get hit on your **** without any pain...ect

 

Will you accept "Chi" is something "natural and mundane" and not mystical? Is Chi even science?

 

Now what about the Shaolin monk say "if you have XYZ gene you can use Chi outright, it's nothing, it's just science, everything we say about Chi is just crap"

 

Why would the existence of XYZ gene make Chi crap in your example? 

 

There's nothing necessarily mutually exclusive about an XYZ gene providing Chi power and Shaolin Training being the way to tap that Chi power that would make one invalidate the other.

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Again, Jedi is a RELIGIOUS group, look at han Solo dialogues, he don't believe in such, he don't believe the Force, also other characters dialogues such as the Imperial officers who mock the "old religion".

Sure they mock the old religion - the Sith only have two force users, the Master and the Apprentice.  The order itself is considered long gone.  But you seem to be working under the assumption that any opinion held by a religion must be related to mystical or spiritual matters which doesn't seem to be true.

 

Whatever Obi Wan or the jedi said about the Force is from their belief, it is mystical, a mysterious power or energy that bind everything, that is Jedi belief. You can learn to use it by becoming a Jedi. At least this is what being presented in Episode 4 to 6

 

Obi-Wan did not say that it was a mystical or mysterious power, though.

 

-snip-

 

 

Will you accept this as science? They say it's the "chi" that is simply "energy suround us, inside us, penetrate us and bind everything"

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhK4-36OuQ

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Alright, i change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

Shaolin monk said we all have Chi, everything have Chi, the whole universe bind by Chi

 

Now change all Jedis dialogues in Star Wars, change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

"The Chi is strong with this one"..."The Chi is my ally, the strong ally it is, it bind everything, penetrate us..."

 

You can only learn to use the Chi by becoming a Shaolin monk, enable you to break walls, walking on fire brimstones, get hit on your **** without any pain...ect

 

Will you accept "Chi" is something "natural and mundane" and not mystical? Is Chi even science?

 

Now what about the Shaolin monk say "if you have XYZ gene you can use Chi outright, it's nothing, it's just science, everything we say about Chi is just crap"

 

 

The concept and idea of life energy is universal to esotericism and not exclusive to shaolin monks or even other chinese traditions like TCM or martial arts. It exists as prana, mana (yes, mana), energy or ruah in a lot of other traditions and mysticism, and while the force shares some similarities and may even be partially based on qi, it certainly isn't synonymous.

 

And no, qi isn't science, it is faith.

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Alright, i change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

Shaolin monk said we all have Chi, everything have Chi, the whole universe bind by Chi

 

Now change all Jedis dialogues in Star Wars, change "the Force" with "Chi"

 

"The Chi is strong with this one"..."The Chi is my ally, the strong ally it is, it bind everything, penetrate us..."

 

You can only learn to use the Chi by becoming a Shaolin monk, enable you to break walls, walking on fire brimstones, get hit on your **** without any pain...ect

 

Will you accept "Chi" is something "natural and mundane" and not mystical? Is Chi even science?

 

Now what about the Shaolin monk say "if you have XYZ gene you can use Chi outright, it's nothing, it's just science, everything we say about Chi is just crap"

 

 

The concept and idea of life energy is universal to esotericism and not exclusive to shaolin monks or even other chinese traditions like TCM or martial arts. It exists as prana, mana (yes, mana), energy or ruah in a lot of other traditions and mysticism, and while the force shares some similarities and may even be partially based on qi, it certainly isn't synonymous.

 

And no, qi isn't science, it is faith.

 

 

Now that's my point, IT IS FAITH

 

But then what about someone put in "midichlorian" in that faith, what it become?

 

"Oi Shaolin monk, you can do those things because you have a lot of midichlorians not like us, that's not fair!"

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Will you accept this as science? They say it's the "chi" that is simply "energy suround us, inside us, penetrate us and bind everything"

 

Your question makes no sense to me.

 

There isn't a duality that something can't both be a scientific fact and spiritual. If science suddenly proved ghosts existed, and proved they were the souls of the departed would the soul be seen as non-spiritual simply because science had advanced enough to detect and describe it?

 

There's no reason why a Jedi Knight couldn't believe in the Force as a living thing that influences all AND understand that it gathers around those who have a higher midichlorian count.

 

Is higher midichlorians why a force user can use the force? Or do midichlorians gather to those who can use the force?

 

Maybe they're force parasites? Or maybe they're energy batteries that store the force going through the body and allow the user to manipulate the fields running through their midichlorians?  We don't know.  And therein lies the room for Jedi's as a mystic order.

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Now that's my point, IT IS FAITH

 

But then what about someone put in "midichlorian" in that faith, what it become?

 

"Oi Shaolin monk, you can do those things because you have a lot of midichlorians not like us, that's not fair!"

 

You lost me there. Honestly, what is your point here?

 

"The force" didn't suddenly turn from mysticism into science because Lucas thought the midichlorians were a good idea. The force quite clearly exists and can be manipulated by force users to achieve a wide variety of effects. Those are both observable and measurable and therefore require no faith - these things are the factual reality of the Star Wars universe.

 

The real mystic quality of the force arises from the various orders of force users and their philosophical differences, which are seemingly represented as the dark and light side of the force - again, which according to Star Wars lore may or may not be a real or philosophical dualism, that is something we do not know.

 

The midichlorians don't change that. They merely give an indication as to how powerful a force user could become - in theory. You're reading far too much into it.

 

If science would find a genetic predisposition necessary to become a shaolin monk* that would change nothing for the monks and their adherence to buddhism. Because faith has no observable prerequisites - it wouldn't be faith otherwise.

 

* Other than an aptitude for martial arts - unfit people are weeded out during training after all. That's the same for any elite group whether it is sports, warfare or organisations like Mensa.

Edited by majestic
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Eh. Silly. But, why do people CARE what he does? He isn't hurting anyone. A lot of bullying,  harassment, and shaming going on. But, yeah, only women get attacked online. LMAO People hate it when you judge women baed on whether they can get a man but seem okay with judging a guy on hwteher he can get a girl. L0L

 

Not that I agree with everything he says. He seems way out there to me. But, his life. *shrug*

Nobody was saying anything about women, dude. You brought that up.

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Your question makes no sense to me.

 

 

-snip-

 

 

 

You lost me there. Honestly, what is your point here?

 

-snip-

 

 

My point is if you put in things to justify mystic power, it is no longer mystic. I am using simple English here but you guys either don't understand or pretend not to understand

 

It is called SCEPTICISM

 

"This thing happen because of this and that, there is no such thing as magic"

 

The Force and anti-Magic of Templar are mystical power before they retconed it by puting reasons behind it. It become sceptic, the Jedis able to use the Force BECAUSE they have a lot of midichlorians, the Templars got their power BECAUSE they consume lyrium.

 

When you give explanation on why something happen, then it's lost it's mystical value

 

Many religious peoples today trying to explain things in the Holy Books because people like you guys no longer believe in miracles and higher powers, you can see such things done by people like Harun Yahya who wrote books and making documentaries about so called scientific things in the Quran (Muslim Holy Book), it is because peoples today want an explanation on everything. By doing that then religion become sceptic, because everything miraculous no longer miraculous

 

You may argue to death Obi Wan saying The Force is "energy" surround everything, but i again repeat only Jedi believe that, non-Jedi (or anyone who are not into Jedi religion) don't believe it. Jedi power is mystical powers before Lucas give an explanation on why Jedi can use their powers. It is the same with Shaolin monk claim we all have "Chi" and they learned to use the "Chi", then it is no longer mystic when someone become sceptic explaining how Shaolin monk can walk on fire brimstones

 

If you try to explain how magicians do their trick, will it still a magic trick? "There's tiny little rope on the stage....."

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"Finally, the last thing I’ll say to ... the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

 

- Lance Armstrong, 2005

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L I E S T R O N G
L I V E W R O N G

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My point is if you put in things to justify mystic power, it is no longer mystic. I am using simple English here but you guys either don't understand or pretend not to understand

So if science explains one of God's creations, the creation is no longer Godly?

 

It is called SCEPTICISM

Skepticism is the belief that things that are thought true should either be proven true or not thought of as true.  It has nothing to do with eliminating mysticism through science; but in finding the things that are provable to exist.  While some skeptics may argue that the lack of proof implies non-existence, the truth is lack of proof only indicates a lack of proof.  Logically you can't make a statement about existence without making foundational assumptions (which isn't bad; we all make foundational assumptions).  And there are many skeptics who believe in some supreme deity; others are atheists, or deists or agnostics...

 

The Force and anti-Magic of Templar are mystical power before they retconed it by puting reasons behind it. It become sceptic, the Jedis able to use the Force BECAUSE they have a lot of midichlorians, the Templars got their power BECAUSE they consume lyrium.

 

When you give explanation on why something happen, then it's lost it's mystical value

 

That logic doesn't follow.  Based on your logic, the fact that the moon revolved around the earth was mystical until it was revealed why it revolved around the earth at which point it become un-mystical.  An explanation doesn't - necessarily - remove the presence of a supernatural element.

 

And at any rate, there's an explanation that Templars don't need lyrium IN DAI; their anti-magic properties are based on their belief in what they know of Thedas (ie what's "real" vs what's "Fade") making the barrier between the Fade and Thedas stronger, thus interferring with a mage's ability to pull energy from the fade.  So Alistair is right in DAO when he says that Lyrium isn't needed to be a Templar (although all evidence is that Lyrium makes shoring up the "wall" between the Fade and Thedas easier). 

 

Many religious peoples today trying to explain things in the Holy Books because people like you guys no longer believe in miracles and higher powers,

 

Who said I don't believe in miracles or higher powers? Sort of an odd assumption to make based on a internet board discussion.

 

You may argue to death Obi Wan saying The Force is "energy" surround everything, but i again repeat only Jedi believe that, non-Jedi (or anyone who are not into Jedi religion) don't believe it. Jedi power is mystical powers before Lucas give an explanation on why Jedi can use their powers. It is the same with Shaolin monk claim we all have "Chi" and they learned to use the "Chi", then it is no longer mystic when someone become sceptic explaining how Shaolin monk can walk on fire brimstones

 

Why would a non-Jedi believe a Jedi explanation in the first place?  How does the existence of midichlorians necessitate (or even imply) that the Force isn't energy that surrounds, penetrates and binds all living things together?  Midichlorians do not explain the Force.  They only give (at best) a correlation between the Force and people who are "Force Users".

 

If you try to explain how magicians do their trick, will it still a magic trick? "There's tiny little rope on the stage....."

 

If a magician does a trick, then certainly he knows how it is done (whether you do or not). Does that knowledge make it any less magic?

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If you try to explain how magicians do their trick, will it still a magic trick? "There's tiny little rope on the stage....."

 

If a magician does a trick, then certainly he knows how it is done (whether you do or not). Does that knowledge make it any less magic?

 

 

it makes it doesn't even magic

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it makes it doesn't even magic

Do you even magic bro?

 

Sorry.

 

 

I am not even bro....

 

 

We are all bro here.

 

 

I am not even here, whatever...

 

 

 

My point is if you put in things to justify mystic power, it is no longer mystic. I am using simple English here but you guys either don't understand or pretend not to understand

So if science explains one of God's creations, the creation is no longer Godly?

 

-snip-

 

 

i. If you look into science, then why bother about "Godly creation"? Science don't prove or disprove "Godly creation" because "Godly creation" is based on FAITH, not FACT

 

ii. Jedi claim about the Force is proven by midichlorian, before midichlorian it is not proven true, just belief

 

iii. Before science, everything is mystical.

 

It seems to be you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, that's why i am not bother answering

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I understand that western peoples are mostly sceptic, even though you may believe in God and miracles and magic and supernatural phenomenon, you guys always want an answer right? An explanation on why things happen like it happen, the reason behind things that make it happen, how things goes on and what is the cause of things to happen...you guys cannot accept "it's God's work"

 

This cannot be in "magical stories", because in magic/miracle/mystical stories what make it is magic/miracle/mystical is because it is magic/miracle/mystical...understand? There cannot be a CAUSE that lead to or explain these thing...it's magic, it's miracle, it's mystic

 

When you put in something to jutify them, it's no longer "mysterious power that existed just because it's existed either you believe it or not, you may argue about it's existence but you may never know the truth behind it because it is simply mysterious"

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If you try to explain how magicians do their trick, will it still a magic trick? "There's tiny little rope on the stage....."

 

If a magician does a trick, then certainly he knows how it is done (whether you do or not). Does that knowledge make it any less magic?

 

 

it makes it doesn't even magic

 

 

I'm really not sure what you're saying here.

 

 

 

My point is if you put in things to justify mystic power, it is no longer mystic. I am using simple English here but you guys either don't understand or pretend not to understand

So if science explains one of God's creations, the creation is no longer Godly?

 

-snip-

 

 

i. If you look into science, then why bother about "Godly creation"? Science don't prove or disprove "Godly creation" because "Godly creation" is based on FAITH, not FACT

 

ii. Jedi claim about the Force is proven by midichlorian, before midichlorian it is not proven true, just belief

 

iii. Before science, everything is mystical.

 

It seems to be you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, that's why i am not bother answering

 

i. If God created everything, then God's creation is scientific fact.

 

ii. Midichlorians don't prove that the force is something that is in every living creature (we know only that it is in humanoids based on the check), we don't know that it binds the universe together. We don't undertand why or how it works. The Jedi belief system is not challenged by the existence of midichlorians.

 

iii. And after science nothing is? If science proved the existence of God, would God no longer be mystical?

 

I'm sorry you feel I'm being argumentative; I'm trying to understand your perspective but it doesn't make much sense to me.

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I understand that western peoples are mostly sceptic, even though you may believe in God and miracles and magic and supernatural phenomenon, you guys always want an answer right?

Oh if only that was true. We are quite gullible.

 

I don't think looking for answers is uniquely a western thing.

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It is the same with Shaolin monk claim we all have "Chi" and they learned to use the "Chi", then it is no longer mystic when someone become sceptic explaining how Shaolin monk can walk on fire brimstones

 

Firewalking has been explained by science 80 years ago. Sorry, I guess I now ruined shaolin monks for you. And for themselves. Because, obviously.

 

I understand that western peoples are mostly sceptic, even though you may believe in God and miracles and magic and supernatural phenomenon, you guys always want an answer right? An explanation on why things happen like it happen, the reason behind things that make it happen, how things goes on and what is the cause of things to happen...you guys cannot accept "it's God's work"

 

This cannot be in "magical stories", because in magic/miracle/mystical stories what make it is magic/miracle/mystical is because it is magic/miracle/mystical...understand? There cannot be a CAUSE that lead to or explain these thing...it's magic, it's miracle, it's mystic

 

When you put in something to jutify them, it's no longer "mysterious power that existed just because it's existed either you believe it or not, you may argue about it's existence but you may never know the truth behind it because it is simply mysterious"

 

So I do have a question here:

 

What do you think of D&D's divine magic system? In case you don't know anything about it, in D&D there are many gods, they are real for as long as there are people worshipping them and in return for said worship they gain access to what's called divine magic (as opposed to arcane magic which is either trained or innate, depending on your class).

 

There's an explained way how this power transfer works, the existence of everything involved is a proven fact, however it still requires faith to work (both ways). Are D&D priests scientists? Or sceptics?

 

Your entire point about something mystical not having any explanaition, cause OR effect is a little strange. Sure, it's true for God and concepts like qi in our real world because those are not observable, have no apparent cause (how could they, without being observable) and also aren't measurable. A sceptic now would say those don't exist, someone having faith would argue it is of no consequence because it is faith.

 

But how can you take that concept and apply it into worlds where the mystic has real, factual effects? Templars have anti-magic powers. Force users have abilities. Those are real, and according to your definition that alone makes it science, not faith? How can that be true?

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If a magician does a trick, then certainly he knows how it is done (whether you do or not). Does that knowledge make it any less magic?

Well yeah, that's why many of them prefer to be called "illusionists" now.

 

The only people going around calling themselves magicians are those crappy ones who can't perform without a group of actors pretending to be amazed for the cameras for their TV series.

 

Err, I might be too opinionated on this.

"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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