REAL Time... (with pause)

[Surface Reflection]

TB animations ... are rare breed and a newer occurence.

Animation frames, you mean like what... 60 per second instead of 25? Frames of what? care to be clear about what exactly you are speaking?

 

TB animations are by necesity also mostly static idle animations, except in case of attacks of opportunity and dodging or defending vs te same, which is also a newer phenomenon in TB. Then they need to be executed in speed that will satisfy expectations of such moves. Which is practically real time speed or close enough to look good. Isnt it ridiculous that TB games have better and more diverse real time animations of movement and combat then a game that is supposed to be a Real time with pause game?

 

btw, ill stress again that i am expecting that this will get much improved during the remaining beta stage.

 

 

Animations in RT - need to be as fast as they need to be. Yes. Liek... as fast as such combat is in reality? or close enough so it seems like it?

(actually it needs to be a bit slower then real life reality so it doesnt look like chaos and all the players can get whats going on, even with pause)

 

 

I mean, you wouldnt do animations in a way that wont fit with the game.... right?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Althernai]

There are two distinct issues in the original post. First, most game play videos are not an accurate portrayal of the game in regard to the ratio of paused to real time play. When such videos are made, the idea is generally to show off some specific aspect of the game play and most of the time it is much easier to do this when the game is paused. Once you are actually playing the game and have learned how to do it, frequent pausing is unlikely to be required except for a few difficult battles.

 

Second, the animations will be better in the final version, but nobody knows how much. To be honest, while it would certainly be nice to have great animations, this is not one of the most important features. To take the ToEE example: if you asked me today whether ToEE had better animations than, say, BG2, I'd have to admit that I have absolutely no idea. I remember quite a few things about ToEE and many more about BG2, but the animations aren't one of either set.

[Surface Reflection]

There are only issues i say that are in the op.

I wrote it, i should know.

 

How much anyone is pausing in their gameplay videos is irrelevant and i probably didnt even watch that one. Or are you claiming i watched whatever videos you think i watched?

That would be funny.

 

Teachning me how to watch video on youtube isnt exactly making you seem too bright to start with.

 

 

Second, the animations will be better in the final version, but nobody knows how much.

 

 

The second is - argument from ignorance. 

 

and what you remember or not is just so incredibly irrelevant i cannot find proper words to describe it.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I felt like Neverwinter Nights handled this well. I remember my rogue falling into melee with a patrolling guard in the prison. The characters shifted around one another, parried, dodged, blocked, etc. Having an extreme preference to magic users, it was probably one of the first experiences of my life where I had found melee combat in an RPG interesting. However, with how asynchronous combat is, I doubt this kind of animation would present well in PoE. As it stands, I find the combat animations adequate.

[Surface Reflection]

Cant say i remember much from NWN but ill take your word for it.

 

I think a lot can be done with small things if they are properly used.

 

Engagement could be presented very clearly through such visual entaglement of two oponents, shifting, parring, dodging and maybe circling one another. - with additional highlight toggle key that would show extra visual pointers if necesary. >Especially if only fighters (and barbarians maybe) had that ability, as i suggested in the engagement thread.

 

If you just add different movement speeds based on stats like whatever attribute governs speed of movement, endurance and health you can relatively easily show the status of each fighter just by the way he or it moves. Slowing down when specific amount of endurance and or heath get take away, or you reach appropriate low level.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Lord Wafflebum]

I'm not sure how much more they're going to be able to do with animations. I, too, suspect the kickstarter money has been used up and they're putting their own money into it at this point with the delay. I'd love to see my expressive animations, but I don't need them. Considering they're primarily in bug-squash and balance mode at this point I'm not sure it is realistic to expect many more, if any, animations.

[Quadrone]

 

btw, ill stress again that i am expecting that this will get much improved during the remaining beta stage.

 

That might be misplaced expectations. Since PoE is feature complete right now I doubt Obsidian will implement several entirely new sets of animations anytime soon.

Some smooting out, yes. Maybe even an additional attack animation or hit animation shared across all classes but no more. Maybe.

We're probably no more than about 3 Months from release. Bugs, performance optimization and a cleanly working story mode are of higher importance.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Quadrone

[Surface Reflection]

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release - and then a few patches too. At the least.

That was my real experience in extensive betas i was involved in so far, both for W2 and much more for D:OS.

 

As i said, any little thing that would make the fighting look less like two wooden planks standing in place and swinging away at each other would be a plus.

 

Its a simple intrinsic integral basic necesity in a game that has a big RT component. Not only a component but real time is its main gameplay form.

It is so simple that if you cannot improve on it, - all the worse for the game. And as much as you can - the better. Its the difference between ok at best and ****ing awesome combat in this case.

 

Again, im not even thinking about anything huge. More like improving on whats already there. And im merciful so im not going to go on about D:OS, im rather keeping it on the level of AoD an indie done by four people - one animator, or ToEE which is a bit older game now but had jumping spinning attacks, no less, for example.

 

Of course this kind of a game has huge other parts that needed to be built ground up frst. The story, dialogues, characters, models, monsters, creatures, animals, the world, maps, locations, vegetation, rivers, houses, cities, dungeons, pots and pans and backgrounds, the works. Its only natural that other specific things arent already in the best possible stage and will be mproved upon as much as needed and possible.

 

Animations are specific and hard to do and require a lot fo additional work but... thats what your game dev is. Its all difficult.

But, you dont really have much choice here.

 

 

I already said i know im saying this a bit too late in the production, but... anything that can be done in this sense will be a plus.

If done right, minimalsitically as needed but where you really need it, it would directly improve or solve all the current biggest talked about problems, engagement, kiting, and it would actually help Ai since situation would be much clearer for a program or algorithm- since these animations would be governed by stats and mechanics not frantic player twitching - so the chaotic mess would be actually reduced, threfore more menagable. Easier to calculate.

[Lord Wafflebum]

I know you're new to the party, but in the beta forums (I don't remember where so I can't quote it) one of the devs told us in a thread where we were talking about adding in a new mechanic that they were only doing bug squashing, optimizations, and balance passes. Essentially they're feature-locked.

[Surface Reflection]

You are just restating what you already said. And i addressed that already.

Tangentially, neither you nor me nor any other ordinary member has any specific knowledge about what exactly they are improving and working on except squashing bugs, optimizations and balance. Its the usual fan pr. And one beta is much like another beta.

You want to defeatist? Fine. Dully noted. Is there anything else i need to say about that?

Plus, im not talking about adding new features but rather about connecting features already there and improving on whats already there.
As i said this would actually help in balancing, Ai improvements and actual gameplay. etc, etc, etc repeatum ad infinitum

[Lord Wafflebum]

...Are you trolling?

 

Why wouldn't I believe what the OE people tell us? It makes more sense to believe they're secretly working on new features?

 

And yes, you taking my realistic expectations of what they're going to get done by release is dully noted by you. I've duly noted that you've clearly come onto these forums to pick fights. Have fun with that.

[Surface Reflection]

Dont be dumb. You said all that you have to say. Nothing else to add. Go away and spray those mewling acusations somewhere else. Pathetic.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Luckmann]

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release [...]

 

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. As Quadrone said, PoE is feature complete. Any game that goes into beta (although the term has become increasingly misused) is formally feature complete.

 

It's not being defeatist to be reasonable and have realistic expectations.

 

I know you're new to the party, but in the beta forums (I don't remember where so I can't quote it) one of the devs told us in a thread where we were talking about adding in a new mechanic that they were only doing bug squashing, optimizations, and balance passes. Essentially they're feature-locked.

It's probably not the post you're talking about, but just the other day BMac said that they're pretty much just fixing bugs.

 

At this point, I'd be surprised if we make it another month without them announcing the release, and seeing the release within 3 months. Preferably, I'd like to see the release as soon as possible (urge.. to play.. rising...) but I'm going to place my bets on February 26th.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Luckmann

[Lord Wafflebum]

 

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release [...]

 

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. As Quadrone said, PoE is feature complete. Any game that goes into beta (although the term has become increasingly misused) is formally feature complete.

 

It's not being defeatist to be reasonable and have realistic expectations.

 

Lol, no use arguing with him. Let him live in his fevered fantasy world where his dervish imaginings are reality. It's as productive as trying to convince a schizophrenic the pigeons outside his window are not trying to steal his thoughts.

[Luckmann]

 

 

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release [...]

 

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. As Quadrone said, PoE is feature complete. Any game that goes into beta (although the term has become increasingly misused) is formally feature complete.

 

It's not being defeatist to be reasonable and have realistic expectations.

 

Lol, no use arguing with him. Let him live in his fevered fantasy world where his dervish imaginings are reality. It's as productive as trying to convince a schizophrenic the pigeons outside his window are not trying to steal his thoughts.

 

 

...!

 

O_O

 

*pulls tinfoil hat down over the ears*

[Surface Reflection]

 

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release [...]

 

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. As Quadrone said, PoE is feature complete. Any game that goes into beta (although the term has become increasingly misused) is formally feature complete.

Its only an opinion of you two dumbasses who are no different then any other forum member so what you think about specifics of what devs are working on every day is as flatulent as a small amount of gas in the wind.

 

 

It's not being defeatist to be reasonable and have realistic expectations.

 

 

Its defeatist in the sense that it is pointless. Doeasnt contribute anything to this discussion. It serves only thin blatant attempt to close the thread, by some cheap troll.

Because telling him ok, yeah noted but its pointless and irrelevant isnt enough. apparently.

 

Its not like he is telling me anything i dont know already. He is just dumb to imagine so.

And i dont mean that as an insult... its just dumb. Thats really the proper descriptor.

 

 

 

It's probably not the post you're talking about, but just the other day BMac said that they're pretty much just fixing bugs.

 

At this point, I'd be surprised if we make it another month without them announcing the release, and seeing the release within 3 months.

 

 

yeah sure. three months of bug fixing.

 

:snort:

bloody noobs...

 

Sure, they will absolutely refuse to work on anything else for three moths. aha. Thats how game dev works.

You get to beta, close everything and then fix bugs. haha!

 

Have talents all been implemented yet? Anything else?

No? well tough luck! Its all locked down baby! Wooo ...

 

 

And i already said im not suggesting new features, only improvements. More animations. The basic block of gameplay in RT. But it seems youre also one that needs repeating everything twice.

 

 

-

 

watching some video of the latest build now,...

seems talents are in, hopefully fully...

 

three lions attack, run straight in front of someone,stop, growl, while player characters run close to them stop in place and swing away.

more lions,more standing in place.... large humanoid groups all standing frozen in place swinging,.. more such fights in some mines, all stand in place and swing...

 

even an archer stands in place while four characters go towards him and chop at him.

 

thats it.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Luridis]

Dodging animations in non-action based combat are a kind of waste of developer time. Non-action based meaning roll vs defense in the background. The tech isn't really there for this either.

 

Why?

 

Look at sword rangers in NWN2: 14 attacks per round. A round is 6 seconds of real time, so that's 2.3 attacks per second. So, the attack & dodge animations would need to go so fast that the character effectively looks like Neo in The Matrix.

 

That is asking for a lot of developer effort for what is a minor flare in combat animations, that could quite possibly look silly, or even goofy when it's done.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Luridis

[Silent Winter]

^That didn't stop NWN1 from having good dodge/parry/shield-block animations and lively looking combat.  (NWN2 fell down here)

I agree it's not a priority and I'll be satisfied with BG level of animation.  But that doesn't make dodge/parry/shield-block animations non-valuable in this type of game.
The time for the dodge/etc needn't be taking control away from the player (as this isn't a twitch game) - it's just playing during attack resolution while the character is currently just standing idle.

[Darkpriest]

Dodging animations in non-action based combat are a kind of waste of developer time. Non-action based meaning roll vs defense in the background. The tech isn't really there for this either.

 

Why?

 

Look at sword rangers in NWN2: 14 attacks per round. A round is 6 seconds of real time, so that's 2.3 attacks per second. So, the attack & dodge animations would need to go so fast that the character effectively looks like Neo in The Matrix.

 

That is asking for a lot of developer effort for what is a minor flare in combat animations, that could quite possibly look silly, or even goofy when it's done.

 

ppl with 14 attacks are godlike levels, so yes, it should look like matrix or even more insane... these kind of people can kill divisions of low level soldiers

Edited December 29, 2014 by Darkpriest

[Surface Reflection]

Seen more combat.

Some higher level dungeon. Mushroom monsters and giant trolls, twice as large as PCs.
Ranged enemies stand in place and shoot until someone steps next to them and pummels them down.
Giant trolls runs straight at player characters, stops, stands in place unmoving and just swings away. Player does the same.
Later on some wurms just stand - hover in place and attack despite being able to fly while player group stands still around them and swings away. Spiders do the same, other creatures do the same. Zombies, ghosts... everyone.

 

 

The whole of the combat at this moment is this:

Standing in place and clicking on icons of skills and spells. Then maybe moving towards next enemy, stopping and then clicking on icons of spells and skills.
Small groups of big groups of enemies, doesnt matter. Approach, stop, swing away. Pause a lot to see what the heck is going on. Click on icons more.
The end effect is then worsened by how engagement works, which cripples the Ai, and it doesnt prevent the player from kiting and cheesing in ways not possible for Ai.

 

 

 

 

If animations would be controlled by stats and skills and improved in the sense i mentioned, then characters movement speed could be diversified, special moves and abilities made to have a direct role in character physical performance in the gameplay - therefore combat made more fluid and therefore tactical, while increasing skills would benefit both the stat sheet  and how a character actually performs in gameplay itself.
Kiting would be greatly diminished as a side effect. As now you could actually have options and skills that influence whole of it.

 

 

How character performs in combat physically, the "animations", should be controlled by stats and skills of the character. You click to attack but its him that does the actual attack. Its not anything strange. You only have complete full control over your character movement in action and fps games and such.

Since both enemies and player characters would have these longer animations - or in fact - better movement in combat - there would be no need for frantic pausing all the bloody time. You still control the most of usual combat as a player but character are the ones that are actually performing moves, so they dodge, defend, achieve critical and so on. So it would all have a different pacing and rhythm then two groups bunched into each other faces in the middle of a hallway, going : Shbang-shbang-shbang-shbang!

 

Enemies would dodge, move, circle too. You wouldn't be able just to walk-run your characters next to it one by one and pummel away, all standing there like wooden planks.

 

 

 

Or... you can play the whole game standing next to enemies unmoving and swinging away by pressing icons in a tool bar.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Quadrone]

 

lots of stuff

 

...

 

I don't even know what to say.

 

I'll just point out that you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you believe that much is going to chang about the "stand in place and swing" combat.

That is how it is intended and the most we can expect here, if anything at all, is added variety to existing animation types.

[Surface Reflection]

heres a tissue, ... umm... (so embarassing) .... there there....

Edited December 29, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Nakia]

If you want interesting combat stances you should play a game developed by the Chinese called Prince of Qin.  That was and still is my favorite for combat.  Iwas turn based and you did have icons on the UI bar to choose what you wanted.

[Surface Reflection]

Nah, i get plenty in Age of Decadence. But thanks anyway.  Well, maybe ill check it, if its good... why not.

 

 

Not to mention...

 

 

 

Original Sin, a turn based game where in a fight i jump all around the battlefield or the area, and do tonnes of moves, spells, attacks, kicks and throw barrels and furniture and create clouds and rain then freeze or electrify it, enemies all reacting to it or getting affected, then zip through it in a lightning then come out on other end of enemies and backstab or do dozen other moves.

 

: does a small samba rumba dance:

 

 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Luridis]

^That didn't stop NWN1 from having good dodge/parry/shield-block animations and lively looking combat.  (NWN2 fell down here)

I agree it's not a priority and I'll be satisfied with BG level of animation.  But that doesn't make dodge/parry/shield-block animations non-valuable in this type of game.

The time for the dodge/etc needn't be taking control away from the player (as this isn't a twitch game) - it's just playing during attack resolution while the character is currently just standing idle.

 

Oh, I thought he was asking for attack for attack animations. NWN1 has placebo animations, IIRC. If you're talking about ones that don't actually show action by action then it's probably less work.