My Perspective on v392

[YunikoYokai5]

Hi all, hope you have had a great Christmas!

 

I've finally found time to sit down and play the new patch with some fresh eyes after playing quite a bit of Baldur's Gate (Enhanced Edition mind you). Overall, I'm a very, very happy little cookie, although some niggling problems are starting to creep out of the woodwork, problems I was indifferent to before my BG experience. 

 

Let's start with the things I like:

 

- The game just seems to feel better than in the other patches. I'm not sure if its the polish or the seemingly improved movement speed when in town but it feels smoother to me. 

 

- Levelling up: I absolutely adore the new level up system. It is so much easier to see what everything is for now. Thank you for getting rid of the talents/skills lock you had before!

 

- Graphics: The game looks amazing! The models look much better and those backer NPCs are now much less intrusive, and less likely to glitch out as they had done in previous builds. I've not been very many places yet because the difficulty is slamming me into the ground but from what I've seen, it looks great! (has the contrast been lowered? It's hard to tell)

 

UI: The UI is a thousand times better, I feel. Everything is so much clearer and it is much easier to read and understand what is going on.

 

SFX: Did the special effects get turned down? I didn't find myself struggling to see through mountains of fire, web and electricity this time around...

 

Pathfinding: Has the pathfinding been improved slightly? I didn't find myself fighting with it so much this time around. We'll see what I get into really tight spaces though. 

 

FPS: The general FPS outside and inside combat seem to have stabilised. I didn't get to the area where I had major issues, but so far so good!

 

Alas, there are a few problems...

 

- Difficulty: Now, last patch was easy, the patch before was a bloody nightmare and the patch before that was really easy. This one is a pain in my backside. I'm on easy and I lost both my Fighter and my hired Ranger because of beetles...(well, technically I lost my ranger due to disengagement but hey). Now, I'm not a good player, but I'm playing BG:EE on normal and I have absolutely no problems with the enemies there. Exception being when I am stupid and/or running into areas I shouldn't be in yet. 

 

- Voice volume: Can we please have an independent slider for this please? Game music is fine, effects are fine but damn it all, the voices are too loud for my liking. 

 

- Combat log: I am really in no position to be critising this, especially since I don't use it but I feel I have to because I use the BG combat log quite often. My major concern with the combat log just now is that it is going a thousand miles a second. Even watching my recording back, I had to pause the video to see what had downed my Ranger (see below). Maybe combine some lines or remove some if you think it is not needed? I had two seperate lines for 'BB Fighter engages Stone Beetle in Melee', BB Fighter engages Wood Beetle in Melee' one after the other. I also feel that it's current location is not ideal. I would prefer to stick it in the centre if possible.

 

- Engagement: Now, let me stop you all right there. I know this is a sore topic on these forums so let me say this right off the bat: I don't hate the feature, I just have some niggling issues with the thing that have come from my BG play, mostly a lack of clarity.

 

Now, I lost my Ranger to a stone beetle disengagement (a crit as well, which was just unnecessary  on the beetle's part XD) but the main problem is is that I couldn't see in the ability descriptions which one dealt with engagement, and with my BB Fighter down and my Knock Down now gone from me, I had no idea what I could use to break the engagement. Now, I like to play quite passively, so an aura on my paladin or my priest/any other class would be wonderful for getting my guys out of a tight spot (say, x aura gives xx% chance for character <xx stamina to break engagement without penalty). I tend not to move around too much regardless so disengagement never really affects me unless I need to get a guy out due to health reasons, which in this case, was the main reason for receiving that critical disengagement. 

 

Enemy Attraction: One thing that is bugging me is that when I clearly see only 1 wood beetle, as to take them out one at a time and now get 90% of my team destroyed, it ALWAYS brings down it's buddy Wood Beetle #2 and Stone beetle. Even in stealth, it seems to be that everything runs on a hive mind, as soon as 1 creature in its group is attacked, everyone is made aware. 

 

------------

 

I think that is mostly everything, or the main points at least. I have come across quite a major bug with my Paladin upon reloading but I'll report that later. Overall, I am loving the game and I am looking forward to release! ...Assuming you don't keep the difficulty at this level XD Dammit, I was getting pummelled! 

 

P.S: Please don't fight about engagement here. There are plenty of threads elsewhere about this for you to talk in circles. Thank you...

[prodigydancer]

Please don't fight about engagement here.

We won't fight about engagement. We'll just discuss it.

 

I need to get a guy out due to health reasons ... the main reason for receiving that critical disengagement.

This is of the key points of anti-engagement point of view: often moving away is an attempt to win some time (to get a healing spell off or bounce aggro to an off-tank). Engagement makes this impossible thus limiting tactical options and encouraging players to avoid tough fights.

[Quadrone]

Alas, there are a few problems...

 

- Difficulty: Now, last patch was easy, the patch before was a bloody nightmare and the patch before that was really easy. This one is a pain in my backside. I'm on easy and I lost both my Fighter and my hired Ranger because of beetles...(well, technically I lost my ranger due to disengagement but hey). Now, I'm not a good player, but I'm playing BG:EE on normal and I have absolutely no problems with the enemies there. Exception being when I am stupid and/or running into areas I shouldn't be in yet. 

 

 

Enemy Attraction: One thing that is bugging me is that when I clearly see only 1 wood beetle, as to take them out one at a time and now get 90% of my team destroyed, it ALWAYS brings down it's buddy Wood Beetle #2 and Stone beetle. Even in stealth, it seems to be that everything runs on a hive mind, as soon as 1 creature in its group is attacked, everyone is made aware. 

 

The beetles seem to be somewhat of an excpetion in this build. Once you get past them, on normal I had no problems with the following wolves, spiders or the Ogre with his bears.

Part of the problem might be a bug that has been reported of the beetles ignoring 10 DT, the other is that their numbers have gone up again and with their close positioning it's really easy to aggro 4-8 of them at once.

 

Regarding the attraction, I'd guess that is working as intended. Nearby enemies are alerted to prevent single target kiting.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Quadrone

[Osvir]

- Engagement: Now, let me stop you all right there. I know this is a sore topic on these forums so let me say this right off the bat: I don't hate the feature, I just have some niggling issues with the thing that have come from my BG play, mostly a lack of clarity.

 

(1) Now, I lost my Ranger to a stone beetle disengagement (a crit as well, which was just unnecessary  on the beetle's part XD) but the main problem is is that I couldn't see in the ability descriptions which one dealt with engagement, and with my BB Fighter down and my Knock Down now gone from me, I had no idea what I could use to break the engagement. Now, I like to play quite passively, so an aura on my paladin or my priest/any other class would be wonderful for getting my guys out of a tight spot (say, x aura gives xx% chance for character <xx stamina to break engagement without penalty). I tend not to move around too much regardless so disengagement never really affects me unless I need to get a guy out due to health reasons, which in this case, was the main reason for receiving that critical disengagement. 

 

(2) Enemy Attraction: One thing that is bugging me is that when I clearly see only 1 wood beetle, as to take them out one at a time and now get 90% of my team destroyed, it ALWAYS brings down it's buddy Wood Beetle #2 and Stone beetle. Even in stealth, it seems to be that everything runs on a hive mind, as soon as 1 creature in its group is attacked, everyone is made aware. 

(1) Funny thing, because a Shieldbearer Paladin has an ability that makes your character practically immune to Disengagement Attacks. That fight could've went all the other way with some better preparation, better build and reading skills/abilities. I often feel you want to have at least 2 characters that can help others get out of a tight spot (I.E. Fighter+Paladin, a Fighter has Knockdown, a Paladin has the Shackles thing~ anti-disengagement). There are other skills/spells/abilities too on other classes that can help against disengagement. I get the feeling that if you go into that fight again you'll be better prepared.

 

(2) And yet, in (vanilla) Baldur's Gate there may be like 15 Gnolls standing next to each other, and by only "touching" 1 of them with the vision radius, you'll draw that single one to you whilst the rest of the 14 stand back. It is bad, in my opinion. I don't agree with you, I like it that there is a "hive mind" and that enemies react together or in a "chain command" even. Though, I do think that in some instances undetected stealth kills could be a thing (without alerting anybody else), but maybe more against humanoid creatures than insectoids or animals.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Osvir

[archangel979]

Yea. I don't want the game to be balanced around pulling single characters. Enemies should be smart about what they see and should react to anything within sight and ear shot. The game is not good enough in that atm.

I watched a stream today where a guy was fighting one cultist in a dungeon where another 2 in room really close by with no door ignored it.

 

And when is combat music going to be changed into something good?

[YunikoYokai5]

 

Alas, there are a few problems...

 

- Difficulty: Now, last patch was easy, the patch before was a bloody nightmare and the patch before that was really easy. This one is a pain in my backside. I'm on easy and I lost both my Fighter and my hired Ranger because of beetles...(well, technically I lost my ranger due to disengagement but hey). Now, I'm not a good player, but I'm playing BG:EE on normal and I have absolutely no problems with the enemies there. Exception being when I am stupid and/or running into areas I shouldn't be in yet. 

 

 

Enemy Attraction: One thing that is bugging me is that when I clearly see only 1 wood beetle, as to take them out one at a time and now get 90% of my team destroyed, it ALWAYS brings down it's buddy Wood Beetle #2 and Stone beetle. Even in stealth, it seems to be that everything runs on a hive mind, as soon as 1 creature in its group is attacked, everyone is made aware. 

 

The beetles seem to be somewhat of an excpetion in this build. Once you get past them, on normal I had no problems with the following wolves, spiders or the Ogre with his bears.

Part of the problem might be a bug that has been reported of the beetles ignoring 10 DT, the other is that their numbers have gone up again and with their close positioning it's really easy to aggro 4-8 of them at once.

 

Regarding the attraction, I'd guess that is working as intended. Nearby enemies are alerted to prevent single target kiting.

 

 

All down to preference and/or situation. If the beetles were easier/not passing 10 DT (whatever that means) then I wouldn't have a problem with them all swarming me. That's my inexperience talking though XD. I suppose I am more annoyed that the first time I use stealth properly and I still attract everything, if I wasn't using stealth then it wouldn't be a problem, I suppose. 

 

That fight could've went all the other way with some better preparation, better build and reading skills/abilities. 

 

....Thanks...

 

 

 

I often feel you want to have at least 2 characters that can help others get out of a tight spot (I.E. Fighter+Paladin, a Fighter has Knockdown, a Paladin has the Shackles thing~ anti-disengagement). There are other skills/spells/abilities too on other classes that can help against disengagement. I get the feeling that if you go into that fight again you'll be better prepared.

 

See, the funny thing was is that I WAS a Shieldbearer, although the abilities that I saw (Zealous Charge, Graceful Retreat and Fast Runner) only Zealous Charge would have helped my Ranger unless I had given him those. Sadly for him, I had gone for the aura that increased accuracy aura on my Paladin because I thought that was more important on a harder build and while building him, I had gone for Resilient Companion (it says all damage types so I'm not sure of Disengagement counts with that...if it does then it didn't help) and Swift aim and that was about as high as I could level him. I'm also not sure what spells or abilities my other companions have aside from knockdown (which I didn't have when I tried to retreat my ranger's companion since he had already been downed through normal combat. I am always overwhelmed with the mage and priest spells and find most of my time in combat is looking through what the spells do...they haven't sunk in yet). 

 

 

 

(2) And yet, in (vanilla) Baldur's Gate there may be like 15 Gnolls standing next to each other, and by only "touching" 1 of them with the vision radius, you'll draw that single one to you whilst the rest of the 14 stand back. It is bad, in my opinion. I don't agree with you, I like it that there is a "hive mind" and that enemies react together or in a "chain command" even. Though, I do think that in some instances undetected stealth kills could be a thing (without alerting anybody else), but maybe more against humanoid creatures than insectoids or animals.

 

Yea. I don't want the game to be balanced around pulling single characters. Enemies should be smart about what they see and should react to anything within sight and ear shot. The game is not good enough in that atm.

I watched a stream today where a guy was fighting one cultist in a dungeon where another 2 in room really close by with no door ignored it.

 

I understand that, even if I don't like it despite making sense. I suppose it is a problem for me since I'm having difficulty with these beetles (and I'm not exactly good at strategy). It makes sense for humanoid characters to hear noise and to go investigate it and for insects to have hive minds (hint the name). Guess I should have waited a few hours before writing this and calmed down a little. (I can't even edit my thread to stop future people responding to that particular point. Dammit!)

Edited December 26, 2014 by YunikoYokai5

[Nakia]

I had a game I enjoyed but found it odd that you could fight one guy behind a row of book cases and the two guys ignored what was happening.  That actually broke immersion for me as it was too unrealistic.  I think once a fight starts nearby enemies should be alerted.

[YunikoYokai5]

I had a game I enjoyed but found it odd that you could fight one guy behind a row of book cases and the two guys ignored what was happening.  That actually broke immersion for me as it was too unrealistic.  I think once a fight starts nearby enemies should be alerted.

 

Yeah, it was more a heat of the moment response (see above. You posted right after I addressed that XD)

[Nakia]

 

I had a game I enjoyed but found it odd that you could fight one guy behind a row of book cases and the two guys ignored what was happening.  That actually broke immersion for me as it was too unrealistic.  I think once a fight starts nearby enemies should be alerted.

 

Yeah, it was more a heat of the moment response (see above. You posted right after I addressed that XD)

 

yes, it is the overpowered beetles that are the problem.   Or so many of them coming at one time that is annoying.   OE still needs to work on balancing the combat.  Other than that and out right bugs I am happy with games.  (no pun intended)

[YunikoYokai5]

yes, it is the overpowered beetles that are the problem.   Or so many of them coming at one time that is annoying.   OE still needs to work on balancing the combat.  Other than that and out right bugs I am happy with games.  (no pun intended)

 

 

I know, I can't play my Paladin just now, completely bugged out and keeps activating his/her aura. I'm too scared of beetle combat just now to see if that will fix it XD

[Nakia]

 

yes, it is the overpowered beetles that are the problem.   Or so many of them coming at one time that is annoying.   OE still needs to work on balancing the combat.  Other than that and out right bugs I am happy with games.  (no pun intended)

 

 

I know, I can't play my Paladin just now, completely bugged out and keeps activating his/her aura. I'm too scared of beetle combat just now to see if that will fix it XD

 

Me too, even when I make the paladin the extra party member the same thing happens.  I think they pushed this patch out quickly so we could play it over the holiday.  I appreciate that but there are a lot of bugs and I do not mean insects.

[YunikoYokai5]

 

 

yes, it is the overpowered beetles that are the problem.   Or so many of them coming at one time that is annoying.   OE still needs to work on balancing the combat.  Other than that and out right bugs I am happy with games.  (no pun intended)

 

 

I know, I can't play my Paladin just now, completely bugged out and keeps activating his/her aura. I'm too scared of beetle combat just now to see if that will fix it XD

 

Me too, even when I make the paladin the extra party member the same thing happens.  I think they pushed this patch out quickly so we could play it over the holiday.  I appreciate that but there are a lot of bugs and I do not mean insects.

 

 

The bugs are severely bugging me, because they are so buggy they kick my backside ... sorry, I'll stop XD. I hope they do something with these damned beetles, what will my friends think when they learn I can't even beat some creepy crawlies!? 

[Cubiq]

I'll just point out as I did in the bug report, the 10 DT that beetles ignore has been in the game for several builds. (at least 3)

Whatever you guys find more difficult, probably isn't related to this.

[Nakia]

I'll just point out as I did in the bug report, the 10 DT that beetles ignore has been in the game for several builds. (at least 3)

Whatever you guys find more difficult, probably isn't related to this.

I don't find the beetles more difficult in this patch just still difficult.   People have been complaining about the beetles all along and will keep complaining.  I think partly because if you want to explore you cannot avoid them  It also seems strange to me that the beetles are tougher than the humanoids in the dungeon temple.

 

However it does remind me a little bit of when I first played Morrowind and got killed by a mudcrab. 

[Osvir]

I had a game I enjoyed but found it odd that you could fight one guy behind a row of book cases and the two guys ignored what was happening.  That actually broke immersion for me as it was too unrealistic.  I think once a fight starts nearby enemies should be alerted.

Currently, there's 3 states (I think) for the AI.

 

- Stationary/Idle. The AI stands in place, facing one direction.

- Patrolling. The AI goes from X to Y, back and forth indefinately.

- Combat. The AI begins to target and attack the Player (Most sub-group states, probably).

 

What about an "Investigating" state?

[morhilane]

I'll just point out as I did in the bug report, the 10 DT that beetles ignore has been in the game for several builds. (at least 3)

Whatever you guys find more difficult, probably isn't related to this.

 

There is a lot more beetles in this build. One or two beetles bypassing 10 DT isn't bad, 6+ of them is a bit problematic.

 

There is also a class/gear factor to difficulty, so people trying new classes or setup might increase or decrease their difficulty. The game is quite punitive if you make a mistake too.

[archangel979]

If too many enemies are a problem in some battles, those enemies should be balanced.

 

But if a player attacks a group and he is not careful and noise of battle attracts more enemies, and player party loses that is OK. Next time player should scout better and prepare his tactics better.

[YunikoYokai5]

I've been having difficulties with the beetles for a few builds now and so they are definitely at least part of the problem. I'll need to try a few other fights (maybe the lions or wade through the other beetles to get to the dragon egg or wolves). In my battle, I positioned my guys so my weaker members were at the back and my melee fighters were at the front...and 2 wood beetles and a stone beetle nearly demolished me. I'll need to start a new game to test other enemies, my current one is bugging to hell just now. 

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

I still can't figure it out how can pathfinding be done the way it is now. I just watch it and cry.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Gladiuss8@gmail.com

[Azmodiuz]

I've never had to disengage from combat yet, and I am playing on normal. My characters are all level 9 now. I started off asap hiring another character though, to wield another bow. My main is a wizard. I pause every 3-4 seconds max. I can for the most part play on path of the damned, but I had  afew times where my characters endurance would get low, so I thought to play on normal mode, where I can steam roll everything.

 

Ive killed mostly everything before they get to even attack me. This may be concerning, but I am also very experienced at playing this sort of game and maxing out my potential, even min/maxing. BUT it does mean, normal difficulty can be a flawless breeze. 

 

If you find yourself disengaging alot, try sneaking into combat, try being tactical, give room and sigh for the ranged characters, sneak up behind with the back stabbers, and focus fire and use AoE properly, and pause every action until you get it perfect.

[YunikoYokai5]

Ive killed mostly everything before they get to even attack me. This may be concerning, but I am also very experienced at playing this sort of game and maxing out my potential, even min/maxing. BUT it does mean, normal difficulty can be a flawless breeze. 

 

I think that is the main difference between us. My first isometric RPG was PoE Beta build 278 or whatever it was. I've only been played about 4-5 hours of BG:EE as well. PotD is far too daughting with my skill level just now. I'm far, far too new to these styles of games. I am playing BG on normal without too much difficulty though. Those damned beetles though...

 

 

I've never had to disengage from combat yet, and I am playing on normal. My characters are all level 9 now. I started off asap hiring another character though, to wield another bow. My main is a wizard. I pause every 3-4 seconds max. I can for the most part play on path of the damned, but I had  afew times where my characters endurance would get low, so I thought to play on normal mode, where I can steam roll everything.

 

...

 

If you find yourself disengaging alot, try sneaking into combat, try being tactical, give room and sigh for the ranged characters, sneak up behind with the back stabbers, and focus fire and use AoE properly, and pause every action until you get it perfect.

 

 

I did sneak into battle and managed to get a wood beetle to half health, but as soon as the stone beetle got into combat it just started wiping my crew out. Maybe my ranger should have a more defensive companion other than a lion...Wood beetles I can deal with, stone ones are the major concern for me. I think it was build 301 that I found the beetles to be really easy in and had no problem with them at all. Every build since, they have been a nightmare. 

 

Thankfully, I only had to disengage that one time and that was purely because my ranger/lion was about to go down. I don't move around too much unless I really need to get a character out of there fast. 

[Nakia]

I still can't figure it out how can pathfinding be done the way it is now. I just watch it and cry.

And I find the pathfinding refreshing in PoE.    The little bit of dithering s=even seems natural to me.  Occasionally I have had to move the party a little to fix it.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Nakia

[archangel979]

Well rangers are weakest class right now so that might be a reason as well.

Also unlike BG you cannot just click and watch for most of fights. BG1 only needs better tactics after a few levels and for some special fights. PoE is designed more like a turn based game with many abilities that need to be used.

[Luckmann]

Well rangers are weakest class right now so that might be a reason as well.

Also unlike BG you cannot just click and watch for most of fights. BG1 only needs better tactics after a few levels and for some special fights. PoE is designed more like a turn based game with many abilities that need to be used.

 

And to be fair, most turn-based games are still more auto-attack-y than PoE appears to be. "Oh, it's his turn again? Uhm, yup, shoot."

[archangel979]

 

Well rangers are weakest class right now so that might be a reason as well.

Also unlike BG you cannot just click and watch for most of fights. BG1 only needs better tactics after a few levels and for some special fights. PoE is designed more like a turn based game with many abilities that need to be used.

 

And to be fair, most turn-based games are still more auto-attack-y than PoE appears to be. "Oh, it's his turn again? Uhm, yup, shoot."

 

Maybe the ones you played. Fallout 1 and 2, ToEE, KotC, Blackguards and some others I played were for sure not stand in one spot and just attack. At worst you needed to change positions each round to maximize offense while reducing number of enemies that could attack you.