Man shoots girlfriend, blames cops, shoots cops

[Walsingham]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30566196

 

Man goes on rant about the police, then _after_ shooting his girlfriend, shoots two officers. And kills them.

 

Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue. 

[213374U]

Yeah, they commented on this in the Michael Brown thread. Not much to say. At best, cops will be more on edge than usual, possibly leading to further violence. At worst, militarization of police forces will pick up, laws will be stiffened, and what have you.

 

Not sure what cops being scum or shining, selfless examples of modern virtue has to do with random murder either, but... please continue?

[Guard Dog]

There is more to the story though. First the guy tries to kill his girlfriend, then shot the cops, then shot himself. This is more a nutjob incident than a cop-killing political statement. However it would be reasonable to assume all the anti-cop sentiment that is being stirred up is a contributing factor.

 

Personally I commend this jackass for what he did, he did the right thing if only he'd done the last thing first.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Guard Dog

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30566196

 

Man goes on rant about the police, then _after_ shooting his girlfriend, shoots two officers. And kills them.

 

Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue.

Why would Volo comment on that ? Going to be an entire week of maudlin coverage of these cops' death and their funeral in NY at least, glad I don't have to put up with that.

[Volourn]

"Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue. "

 

I've defended cops before. I even defended the stupid cop who killed Brown. now, the Garner case. There is no justifible reason for the piece of crap cop doing what he did.

 

In this case, if the reporting is accurate which i believe it is, the obvious scumbag is the shooter.\

 

\Now, go play your insane trolling game with someone else.

 

Thank you.

[Walsingham]

"Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue. "

 

I've defended cops before. I even defended the stupid cop who killed Brown. now, the Garner case. There is no justifible reason for the piece of crap cop doing what he did.

 

In this case, if the reporting is accurate which i believe it is, the obvious scumbag is the shooter.\

 

\Now, go play your insane trolling game with someone else.

 

Thank you.

 

I do beg your pardon madam. Perhaps one of us will go find some quotes to support either contention.

[Amentep]

There is more to the story though. First the guy tries to kill his girlfriend, then shot the cops, then shot himself. This is more a nutjob incident than a cop-killing political statement. However it would be reasonable to assume all the anti-cop sentiment that is being stirred up is a contributing factor.

Its pretty clear from reports that he had mental health issues that were never addressed. Family said (if I read it correctly) that he refused treatement and in none of his previous run-ins with the law was there a mental health intervention.

[Walsingham]

 

There is more to the story though. First the guy tries to kill his girlfriend, then shot the cops, then shot himself. This is more a nutjob incident than a cop-killing political statement. However it would be reasonable to assume all the anti-cop sentiment that is being stirred up is a contributing factor.

Its pretty clear from reports that he had mental health issues that were never addressed. Family said (if I read it correctly) that he refused treatement and in none of his previous run-ins with the law was there a mental health intervention.

 

My point was really that we accept the 'mad' option here. But we don't in other cases of violence deliberately oriented on cops.

[Malcador]

My point was really that we accept the 'mad' option here. But we don't in other cases of violence deliberately oriented on cops.

What other cases have there been ?

 

Or do you mean violence involving cops rather than on them

Edited December 23, 2014 by Malcador

[Longknife]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30566196

 

Man goes on rant about the police, then _after_ shooting his girlfriend, shoots two officers. And kills them.

 

Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue. 

 

 

I'll fill in. For funzies.

 

 

 

Can you believe those ****ing scumbag cops making a civilian waste expensive ammunition on them? We truly are living in an oppressive police state where you cannot even discipline your woman properly without getting arrested.

[HoonDing]

Well, this incident is sure to make American cops even more trigger-happy.

[Walsingham]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30566196

 

Man goes on rant about the police, then _after_ shooting his girlfriend, shoots two officers. And kills them.

 

Volo, I believe this is where you normally say all cops are scum. Please do so then I'll continue. 

 

 

I'll fill in. For funzies.

 

 

 

Can you believe those ****ing scumbag cops making a civilian waste expensive ammunition on them? We truly are living in an oppressive police state where you cannot even discipline your woman properly without getting arrested.

 

 

You, sir are a scholar, gentlemen, and professional grade impressionist.

[Walsingham]

I actually did a search and can't find the posts with Volo saying cops were fascist scum.

 

Can anyone else remember them, or find, them? Because if not I owe him an apology. AND I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT JESUS HAD IN MIND WHEN HE INVENTED CHRISTMAS.

[Hurlshort]

Volourn makes a very confusing statement about how it is evil to defend evil cops, so any cop that doesn't rat out their fellow officers for being evil is evil as well, and basically negates the possibility of good cops.  Or something like that.  

[Malcador]

Volourn makes a very confusing statement about how it is evil to defend evil cops, so any cop that doesn't rat out their fellow officers for being evil is evil as well, and basically negates the possibility of good cops.  Or something like that.  

Well, that is kind of true - if you're a good cop but yet don't report bad cops being bad...what good are you, exactly ? I recently picked up 'Cling together, Swing together' as an expression, suits this situation.

[Walsingham]

 

Volourn makes a very confusing statement about how it is evil to defend evil cops, so any cop that doesn't rat out their fellow officers for being evil is evil as well, and basically negates the possibility of good cops.  Or something like that.  

Well, that is kind of true - if you're a good cop but yet don't report bad cops being bad...what good are you, exactly ? I recently picked up 'Cling together, Swing together' as an expression, suits this situation.

 

 

Loyalty is a tricky thing. It's a common mistake to assume that loyalty enables corruption. A lack of loyalty is far worse.

 

A loyal group will turn sour if a single skilled ****hole manipulates them. A disloyal group starts out sour and gets worse, because half the reason you don't get corrupted is to uphold a standard you owe to your friends and colleagues.

 

Naturally, bad apples get in, and that's why you need really solid senior non-management people who will identify the bad apples and deal with them. It can't be management itself because they are effectively an outgroup. They can't usually identify bad apples let alone prosecute them successfully.

 

Solid senior non-management will only do this if they have a clear and strong code they can feel proud of.

 

This is one reason why it's so bloody dangerous to send the message that all cops are evil fascists. You cancel the 'debt' of pride.

[213374U]

Loyalty is a tricky thing. It's a common mistake to assume that loyalty enables corruption. A lack of loyalty is far worse.

 

A loyal group will turn sour if a single skilled ****hole manipulates them. A disloyal group starts out sour and gets worse, because half the reason you don't get corrupted is to uphold a standard you owe to your friends and colleagues.

 

Naturally, bad apples get in, and that's why you need really solid senior non-management people who will identify the bad apples and deal with them. It can't be management itself because they are effectively an outgroup. They can't usually identify bad apples let alone prosecute them successfully.

 

Solid senior non-management will only do this if they have a clear and strong code they can feel proud of.

 

This is one reason why it's so bloody dangerous to send the message that all cops are evil fascists. You cancel the 'debt' of pride.

 

Having been part of a group exactly like the one you're describing, I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Putting a misunderstood concept of loyalty to your comrades before (or even at the same level as) the deontological code one is sworn to and especially self-respect is precisely the kind of thinking that leads to people enabling the abuse of authority or force. And I say misunderstood because loyalty is something that shouldn't be granted automatically, it should be earned instead.

 

Also, I'm not certain where loyalty ends and herd mentality begins. Acting decisively against bad apples sets an an example to others who may otherwise lack the strength of character to break away from "the group".

 

Then again, I was basically kicked out, so what do I know...

 

 

Also, who cares about Volourn. Discuss me. I'm sexier too. 

 

edit: WHY THE **** DOES THE FORUM RANDOMLY CHANGE THE FONT SIZE!?!?

Edited December 24, 2014 by 213374U

[Malcador]

Loyalty is a tricky thing. It's a common mistake to assume that loyalty enables corruption. A lack of loyalty is far worse.

 

A loyal group will turn sour if a single skilled ****hole manipulates them. A disloyal group starts out sour and gets worse, because half the reason you don't get corrupted is to uphold a standard you owe to your friends and colleagues.

 

Naturally, bad apples get in, and that's why you need really solid senior non-management people who will identify the bad apples and deal with them. It can't be management itself because they are effectively an outgroup. They can't usually identify bad apples let alone prosecute them successfully.

 

Solid senior non-management will only do this if they have a clear and strong code they can feel proud of.

 

This is one reason why it's so bloody dangerous to send the message that all cops are evil fascists. You cancel the 'debt' of pride.

So, you're okay with cops keeping silent or actively assisting in covering up the abuses of another cop out of a sense of loyalty ? I suppose they do have multiple loyalties and some are prioritized over others - but it seems some of them have that queue messed up.

[Hurlshort]

I think you are oversimplifying a rather complex issue.  If you have a cop that is being beaten by a suspect, and the cop's partner pulls the suspect off and then commits police brutality on the suspect, do you expect the cop who was just beaten to rat his partner out?

 

You also have a tremendous amount of doubt in these situations, at least until a full investigation is complete and often even then, doubt lingers.  You are automatically going to doubt the officer, because authority or whatever, but do you really expect other police to not give the benefit of the doubt to the officer?  I don't think it would be healthy to have cops walking around looking at all their colleagues as criminals, like some of you do here.

[Gromnir]

 

Loyalty is a tricky thing. It's a common mistake to assume that loyalty enables corruption. A lack of loyalty is far worse.

 

A loyal group will turn sour if a single skilled ****hole manipulates them. A disloyal group starts out sour and gets worse, because half the reason you don't get corrupted is to uphold a standard you owe to your friends and colleagues.

 

Naturally, bad apples get in, and that's why you need really solid senior non-management people who will identify the bad apples and deal with them. It can't be management itself because they are effectively an outgroup. They can't usually identify bad apples let alone prosecute them successfully.

 

Solid senior non-management will only do this if they have a clear and strong code they can feel proud of.

 

This is one reason why it's so bloody dangerous to send the message that all cops are evil fascists. You cancel the 'debt' of pride.

So, you're okay with cops keeping silent or actively assisting in covering up the abuses of another cop out of a sense of loyalty ? I suppose they do have multiple loyalties and some are prioritized over others - but it seems some of them have that queue messed up.

 

we can only provide anecdotal.

 

when we worked juvenile hall, we were mighty conflicted about reporting infractions of fellow probation officers-- the county probation department ran the local juvi hall. if we reported a fellow employee for, just as examples, being asleep on-duty or leaving a security door unlocked, we would then needs have to deal with the predictable backlash  from our fellow "counselors." the next time Gromnir needed counselor backup or support, we would expect less than their full effort, and we would be certain that if we ever made an error, no matter how minor, we would be instant reported.  and again, we were only working juvenile hall. the residents Gromnir typical dealt with were older and bigger than the average resident, but we is still talking 'bout 16 and 17 year olds as 'posed to adult criminals with firearms.

 

if you cannot trust the people you work with, it is unlikely you will last long in any law enforcement job.

 

sidenote:

 

we did write a memo to administration regarding chairs of all things. in the high security unity we searched residents for such items as pencils and shiv/toothbrushes as such things could be utilized as weapons. unfortunately, the residents used plastic chairs when they were watching tv or eating meals in the unit. we observed that a pool table had been removed from J-unit a number of years previous because a resident had used a pool cue as a weapon and struck a counselor doing serious and permanent physical damage in the attack. we further observed that the chairs we currently utilized in the high security unit, a unit that housed accused rapists and murderers, were heavier than a pool cue and could also be used as very effective and deadly weapons of opportunity. etc. yadda yadda.

 

we were given a crap detail after we submitted the memo to the lead supervisor. the administration didn't like that we wrote such a memo.

 

nevertheless, one supervisor "had our back." the supervisor who approved o' our actions got us transferred to his time-slot at the hall and from that point we were working effectively for him at intake/security.  we certainly felt a significant amount of loyalty towards the supervisor who were looking out for our best interests, especially when the alternative were having to clean the fecal matter that B_____ used to paint his room when he were off his medications. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we would never fail to report what we saw as egregious infractions or assaults on residents, regardless o' loyalty or esprit de corps or whatever. but borderline stuff? am betting that "boarderline" is even more confusing for police officers.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

I think you are oversimplifying a rather complex issue.  If you have a cop that is being beaten by a suspect, and the cop's partner pulls the suspect off and then commits police brutality on the suspect, do you expect the cop who was just beaten to rat his partner out?

 

You also have a tremendous amount of doubt in these situations, at least until a full investigation is complete and often even then, doubt lingers.  You are automatically going to doubt the officer, because authority or whatever, but do you really expect other police to not give the benefit of the doubt to the officer?  I don't think it would be healthy to have cops walking around looking at all their colleagues as criminals, like some of you do here.

Well, apparently loyalty to your mates is to trump all and that's the higher ups problem to deal with units rife with scum cops. Rather amusing when I recall cops campaigns to end cultures where "snitching" is bad, at least here but the Blue Mafia culture is pretty strong.

 

How is the cop 'ratting' the other one by reporting everything accurately and not covering up at all ? Cops aren't really supposed to beat the crap out of you once subdued (as you are giving an example of brutality).  If anything does look fishy, ideally it would be looked at and not taken as gospel truth as a Brother in Blue said it.

 

It's not really that complex to see you, if you know of wrongdoing and cover it up or keep quiet, as just as bad as the person doing it.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Malcador